The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

New member
I see so clearly through everything I read i the new testament that God is the God of Jesus even Paul talks about Jesus being under subjection to God, and that God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself. I just can't see that Jesus is God. Jesus even said plainly that God is his father and his God also. And he calls God the only true God and that he is Jesus Christ whom God has sent. I have to believe what I read, I believe Jesus when he says that God is his God. I just don't see how that can be changed. Jesus even said he came not to do his will, but the will of the father who has given him commandments and he does them, as that God has exhalted Jesus. God wouldn't have given Jesus commandments or exhalted Jesus if he was God already.

To me when the apostles said the God of our lord Jesus Christ, they meant just that, and they were full of the holy spirit, Thomas wasn't, I believe that when Thomas said my lord my God, he saw God in Jesus. I see God in Jesus clearly, I just don't see that he is God. It even says in the Bible that Christ is the head of man and God the head of Christ. You can't get it any more plainer than that, to me anyway. Do you know what he means by the first and the last? First and the last of what? Beginning and the end of what? I'm just wondering what churches believe to this, thanks.

If God was made manifest and walked among is in the flesh (which the Gospel of John tells us in the first chapter),
And if it was not his purpose to announce himself right away (as we maybe allowed to suppose),
Then is he allowed to understate his importance, and who he really is, like the King that pretended to be a beggar?

If God were to enter his own creation,
Perhaps analogous as the way a programmer might enter his own program as a normal user,
Then wouldn't he also follow all the laws and rules that a normal user would be subject to?

If Jesus were just a man, then he cannot claim to be God, to take his role, position, titles, name. That would be blasphemy.
But if Jesus were God, he can do all these things, and still refer to himself as a man, and give honor to God, as he is following the rules and walking a mile in our shoes.
Thus, being found in fashion as a man does not necessarily conflict with the possibility of Jesus indeed being God. God in the flesh would acknowledge God above as his God, as he certainly is not "godless" and has no other god. His authority on earth is from God in heaven, where else would it be from?

You would need a definitive ironclad statement from Jesus that he is NOT God in order to prove one theory. But when given opportunity to deny such, when accused of making himself God, when people worshiped him, when Thomas declared him as Lord and God in that many words, he did not deny this.

For the other theory, does Jesus actually call himself God? Does he take the name? You asked "what does he mean by the first and the last?" I'll gladly answer that, but would you like to take a shot at that first? What does your Bible say about the first and the last? It's a specific reference to Isaiah. I had a friend ask me this exact same question years ago. Can we answer this specific question here and now?
 

God's Truth

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We use the Bible

You use the Bible and use the scriptures that you have been taught wrong.

If you teach to people who are not yet believers, you would have to tell them they do not believe and will not ever be saved and believe because God does not want them.

However, the Calvinists usually try to get those who already believe and then teach those believers the perverse way of Calvinism.

If you teach someone yet to believe that God does not ever want them to believe, will that not solidify their unbelief?
 

God's Truth

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You agree?! You have been saying it is nothing we do, but then I give scripture that proves we have to do something and now you say you believe that.

See that is why I know you have been influenced by false teachers, for you say the exact same things they say, but when you hear the truth you say you believe; but when it comes to you describing your beliefs and explaining them, you repeat what the false teachers say.

False teachers like to say it is nothing we do, it is nothing we do. BUT THAT IS THE VERY WAY WE RECEIVE SALVATION---by something WE DO! What do we have to do to get to God the Father, who is ETERNAL LIFE? WE. HAVE. TO. DO. WHAT. JESUS. SAYS. TO. DO.

I am the way and the truth and the life. See John 14:6.

Think about what Jesus says, and tell me why you miss that we have to do what the truth and life says to get where we want to go.
 

marhig

New member
You agree?! You have been saying it is nothing we do, but then I give scripture that proves we have to do something and now you say you believe that.

See that is why I know you have been influenced by false teachers, for you say the exact same things they say, but when you hear the truth you say you believe; but when it comes to you describing your beliefs and explaining them, you repeat what the false teachers say.

False teachers like to say it is nothing we do, it is nothing we do. BUT THAT IS THE VERY WAY WE RECEIVE SALVATION---by something WE DO! What do we have to do to get to God the Father, who is ETERNAL LIFE? WE. HAVE. TO. DO. WHAT. JESUS. SAYS. TO. DO.

I am the way and the truth and the life. See John 14:6.

Think about what Jesus says, and tell me why you miss that we have to do what the truth and life says to get where we want to go.
I don't know what on earth you're going on about, but you've got me all wrong, faith without works is dead. I've said right along that we must obey God and turn from sinning. And that wilful sinning isn't acceptable with God. When I say it's nothing I do. I mean in my heart, I'm not the one changing my heart, the holy spirit does that. But I absolutely believe that we are to obey God and deny ourselves turn from sin and follow Jesus.
 

marhig

New member
If God was made manifest and walked among is in the flesh (which the Gospel of John tells us in the first chapter),
And if it was not his purpose to announce himself right away (as we maybe allowed to suppose),
Then is he allowed to understate his importance, and who he really is, like the King that pretended to be a beggar?

If God were to enter his own creation,
Perhaps analogous as the way a programmer might enter his own program as a normal user,
Then wouldn't he also follow all the laws and rules that a normal user would be subject to?

If Jesus were just a man, then he cannot claim to be God, to take his role, position, titles, name. That would be blasphemy.
But if Jesus were God, he can do all these things, and still refer to himself as a man, and give honor to God, as he is following the rules and walking a mile in our shoes.
Thus, being found in fashion as a man does not necessarily conflict with the possibility of Jesus indeed being God. God in the flesh would acknowledge God above as his God, as he certainly is not "godless" and has no other god. His authority on earth is from God in heaven, where else would it be from?

You would need a definitive ironclad statement from Jesus that he is NOT God in order to prove one theory. But when given opportunity to deny such, when accused of making himself God, when people worshiped him, when Thomas declared him as Lord and God in that many words, he did not deny this.

For the other theory, does Jesus actually call himself God? Does he take the name? You asked "what does he mean by the first and the last?" I'll gladly answer that, but would you like to take a shot at that first? What does your Bible say about the first and the last? It's a specific reference to Isaiah. I had a friend ask me this exact same question years ago. Can we answer this specific question here and now?


Jesus never claimed to be God, he never once said I am God or I am God the son, he only ever called himself the son of God, and the son of man never God.

We can go on and on, but we're not getting anywhere. To me it's clear in the new testament that God is the God of Jesus, I've explained over and over why I believe that to be so, and I believe Jesus when he says that God is his father and his God. There can't be anything clearer than that.

I've quoted verse after verse after verse as to why I believe the way i do. But they are just dismissed yet they clearly show that God is the God and head of Christ and that Christ is under subjection to God. I have to believe Jesus before anyone and he said God was his God and that there is only one true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. And there's one God, and one mediator between man and God, Jesus Christ.

I can on and on and but, we're just going round in circles. Quoting the same scriptures, we see things differently but only God knows both our hearts and only he can judge us.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I don't know what on earth you're going on about, but you've got me all wrong, faith without works is dead. I've said right along that we must obey God and turn from sinning. And that wilful sinning isn't acceptable with God. When I say it's nothing I do. I mean in my heart, I'm not the one changing my heart, the holy spirit does that. But I absolutely believe that we are to obey God and deny ourselves turn from sin and follow Jesus.

The controversial "turn from sin and follow Jesus" belief. No wonder it's sparked a hot debate.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus never claimed to be God, he never once said I am God or I am God the son, he only ever called himself the son of God, and the son of man never God.

We can go on and on, but we're not getting anywhere. To me it's clear in the new testament that God is the God of Jesus, I've explained over and over why I believe that to be so, and I believe Jesus when he says that God is his father and his God. There can't be anything clearer than that.

I've quoted verse after verse after verse as to why I believe the way i do. But they are just dismissed yet they clearly show that God is the God and head of Christ and that Christ is under subjection to God. I have to believe Jesus before anyone and he said God was his God and that there is only one true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. And there's one God, and one mediator between man and God, Jesus Christ.

I can on and on and but, we're just going round in circles. Quoting the same scriptures, we see things differently but only God knows both our hearts and only he can judge us.

The reason it hasn't phased anyone that "There is One God" is because it forms no contradiction if Jesus is that God. The God of Jesus is God above, who else would he say his God was? It seems confusing, to some, because they aren't used to thinking of God standing in front of them, suffering all things as we would. Hebrews 2:17, "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make a reconciliation for the sins of his people."

I could again show where Jesus made himself God, forgave sins, said that he existed before Abraham and saw Satan when he was cast down, where John says that he was the Word which made all things, where he calls himself the Son of God and show what Paul says is meant by "the Son of God" in the Jew's meaning.

If one passage says that Jesus ascends to his God, and another passage says that Jesus is that God, there is no necessary conflict. Regardless of whether he takes on multiple roles in relation to man (creator, father, friend, redeemer, priest, or sacrificial lamb) he can still be the same God, and the same person. If a participant in this forum said that he has authority from the System Administrator... does this necessarily mean that he could not be that System Administrator? He (or she) very well could be. You can't tell just from the user name.

Your reasoning, as presented, would mean that a System Admin could never log in as a user, and that no user could ever also be a System Admin through another account. So what I am asking is to let clear words settle the question. If Jesus speaks and declares himself God, that overrides any time when he would have remained vague. For if he was direct and cast thunder and lightning like at Mount Sinai, would they have dared crucify him? And how then would the scripture be fulfilled?

May we look at Revelation, so that I can answer your question, "First and the last" of what?
 

TulipBee

New member
You use the Bible and use the scriptures that you have been taught wrong.

If you teach to people who are not yet believers, you would have to tell them they do not believe and will not ever be saved and believe because God does not want them.

However, the Calvinists usually try to get those who already believe and then teach those believers the perverse way of Calvinism.

If you teach someone yet to believe that God does not ever want them to believe, will that not solidify their unbelief?
God gets what he wants but you dont want him to have that much power
 

TulipBee

New member
Obeying everything God says is power, and honor.

Jesus says do this and do that.

Calvinists say no I cannot you must save me first.
We are not saved by keeping the law of God but we are saved from breaking the law of God.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." 1 John 2:3

 
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God's Truth

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Banned
I don't know what on earth you're going on about, but you've got me all wrong, faith without works is dead. I've said right along that we must obey God and turn from sinning. And that wilful sinning isn't acceptable with God. When I say it's nothing I do. I mean in my heart, I'm not the one changing my heart, the holy spirit does that. But I absolutely believe that we are to obey God and deny ourselves turn from sin and follow Jesus.

That sounds good. Now tell me, do you believe you have to obey to get saved, or do you believe you only have to have faith to get saved?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The reason it hasn't phased anyone that "There is One God" is because it forms no contradiction if Jesus is that God. The God of Jesus is God above, who else would he say his God was? It seems confusing, to some, because they aren't used to thinking of God standing in front of them, suffering all things as we would. Hebrews 2:17, "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make a reconciliation for the sins of his people."

I could again show where Jesus made himself God, forgave sins, said that he existed before Abraham and saw Satan when he was cast down, where John says that he was the Word which made all things, where he calls himself the Son of God and show what Paul says is meant by "the Son of God" in the Jew's meaning.

If one passage says that Jesus ascends to his God, and another passage says that Jesus is that God, there is no necessary conflict. Regardless of whether he takes on multiple roles in relation to man (creator, father, friend, redeemer, priest, or sacrificial lamb) he can still be the same God, and the same person. If a participant in this forum said that he has authority from the System Administrator... does this necessarily mean that he could not be that System Administrator? He (or she) very well could be. You can't tell just from the user name.

Your reasoning, as presented, would mean that a System Admin could never log in as a user, and that no user could ever also be a System Admin through another account. So what I am asking is to let clear words settle the question. If Jesus speaks and declares himself God, that overrides any time when he would have remained vague. For if he was direct and cast thunder and lightning like at Mount Sinai, would they have dared crucify him? And how then would the scripture be fulfilled?

May we look at Revelation, so that I can answer your question, "First and the last" of what?


If his words conflict, your seeing it wrong.

Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God NOT God the son.
 
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