The Trinity

The Trinity


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Bright Raven

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Bright Raven, can you tell me which gospel is correct and which is in error? Was it the Father or the Holy Ghost that impregnated Mary? You are pretty adamant that scripture makes clear distinctions so can you please tell me which gospel we can trust? Matthew or John?
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
 

Rosenritter

New member
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Thank you for that excerpt, but I am not sure I understand your meaning. Paul does not say anything about a Trinity when he defines the Gospel in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. It also doesn't answer the question I asked about which gospel is correct, the gospel of Matthew that says Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost, or the gospel of John that says that Jesus was begotten by the Father. If the Trinity is true, and you have stated that it must be, then one of those gospels is mistaken.

Earlier, you said this, can you please explain?
If you do not believe in the trinity that is your loss. It means that you do not have a true understanding of the nature of God.

Yet the consensus of people that dogmatically teach the Trinity is that it is a doctrine that by its nature cannot be understood. For example, pulling from one random website out of many that dogmatically insist that the Trinity must be believed, or else:

http://www.christianity.com/god/trinity/god-in-three-persons-a-doctrine-we-barely-understand-11634405.html
Having said that, I admit that no one fully understands it. It is a mystery and a paradox. Yet I believe it is true.
Someone has said it this way: If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul.

You say that without the Trinity you cannot understand God, but others say that it is a doctrine that cannot be understood and that God is beyond understanding. I am not even sure that you understand it yourself, given the answers (or rather the lack thereof) that you have offered.

Yet without being limited by an incomprehensible Trinity model, just allowing scripture to speak as it may, I think that I do have understanding. In its passages I can see Christ, and Christ said that if we have seen him we have seen the Father (John 14:7-9). Thus I know that the God of Heaven is the same that walked among us in the flesh (John 1, 1 Tim 3:16) how he cares for his creation to go that far to reach us. Our God is not a distant God but a God that would bring us close, that would come to us as we are unable to come to him. Our Father in Heaven is not cold and distant, not alien and detached, but caring and involved, he has immense Passion.

And this I also know...

1 John 2:22-23 KJV
(22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


If John writes through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and says that he who acknowledges the Son hath the Father also, then who are you (anyone, that is) to say anything different?

If you claim that "Trinity" is the only way and that it is biblical but cannot answer questions from the bible (as some do) stop and take the beam out of your own eye before you dismiss (or condemn) everyone else. They are not your enemy, but also servants of your Lord.
 
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lifeisgood

New member
You see the way I believe as being wrong, but, I believe that Jesus came as a living sacrifice, and that by him not sinning he was dead to this flesh, I believe that he suffered and denied his will, sacrificing his whole life to bring us the truth, and he bore his cross and denied Satan until his last breath thus overcoming him and the world and he is the way back to God and that his way is the only way, and he is the life, and I believe that following him is living it out and walking the walk. I believe that I'm to deny myself, bare my cross and that I am to follow Jesus if i truly believe in him.

Still denying His Blood, which is the only God's prescribed way of victory.

Jesus’ incarnation did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' perfect life did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' not sinning did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' perfect life did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' sufferings did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus’ many incredible miracles did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God
Jesus’ many sermons and sayings did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus’ many incredible healings did Not rent the veil of separation between man and God, etc., etc., etc.

Jesus’ BLOOD on the Cross of Calvary RENT the veil of separation between man and God.


Matthew 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:2424 And he said unto them, This is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:2020 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Acts 20:2828 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath PURCHASED with his own BLOOD.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH in HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED by HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the BLOOD of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and BLOOD of the Lord.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made NIGH by the BLOOD of Christ.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made PEACE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having OBTAINED eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT shedding of BLOOD is no remission.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is NOT possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath COUNTED the BLOOD of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an UNHOLY thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh BETTER things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the BLOOD of the EVERLASTING covenant,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1 Peter 1:19 BUT [ye know that ye were redeemed] with the precious BLOOD of CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ his Son CLEANSETH us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED us from our sins in HIS OWN BLOOD,

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have WASHED their robes, and made them white in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

Revelation 12:11 And they OVERCAME him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You have to come THOUGH HIS BLOOD to get to God. If you have not been washed in HIS BLOOD you are still outside God's prescribed way of victory.

I pray that some day you will see that you need HIS BLOOD to be washed and cleansed of your sins just as He said.

It is incumbent exclusively on you to either accept or reject HIS BLOOD shed to remit the sin of the world. All who come through the BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary will be accepted by God those who reject the BLOOD will be rejected by God.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Jesus enjoys two distinct sonships just like He has two distinct natures.
Christ is BOTH the eternal Son of God (eternally begotten of the Father) and the temporal Son of Man/Son of Adam through Mary.

The Holy Spirit comes upon Mary so as to form the human nature of Jesus from her. And this does not make the Holy Spirit the "earthly father" of Jesus in the sense that Mary becomes Jesus' earthly mother for two essential reasons:

(1) The Divine PERSON of Jesus pre-existed the creation of His physical human nature; and this Divine PERSON already had an eternal relationship with the Holy Spirit, which was not a Father-Son relationship.

(2) While the PERSON of the Son possessed an eternal relationship with the Spirit prior to His human conception (which was not a Father-Son relationship), the PERSON of the Son did not possess any such pre-existing relationship with Mary, aside from being her Creator.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus enjoys two distinct sonships just like He has two distinct natures.
Christ is BOTH the eternal Son of God (eternally begotten of the Father) and the temporal Son of Man/Son of Adam through Mary.

The Holy Spirit comes upon Mary so as to form the human nature of Jesus from her. And this does not make the Holy Spirit the "earthly father" of Jesus in the sense that Mary becomes Jesus' earthly mother for two essential reasons:

(1) The Divine PERSON of Jesus pre-existed the creation of His physical human nature; and this Divine PERSON already had an eternal relationship with the Holy Spirit, which was not a Father-Son relationship.

(2) While the PERSON of the Son possessed an eternal relationship with the Spirit prior to His human conception (which was not a Father-Son relationship), the PERSON of the Son did not possess any such pre-existing relationship with Mary, aside from being her Creator.

1. If this was in answer to something, what question are you answering?
2. Does the bible say that Jesus "had a relationship" with another divine person named the Holy Spirit before his birth? Where?

I appreciate that you are correctly reciting Trinity doctrine as it is taught, but what I am looking for us a from the ground up laid out proof from actual scripture and nothing but scripture. If you were to start with a blank slate, a working knowledge of English and a King James Bible, what would you actually get starting at Genesis and reading until the end of Revelation?
 

marhig

New member
Still denying His Blood, which is the only God's prescribed way of victory.

Jesus’ incarnation did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' perfect life did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' not sinning did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' perfect life did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus' sufferings did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus’ many incredible miracles did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God
Jesus’ many sermons and sayings did NOT rent the veil of separation between man and God.
Jesus’ many incredible healings did Not rent the veil of separation between man and God, etc., etc., etc.

Jesus’ BLOOD on the Cross of Calvary RENT the veil of separation between man and God.


Matthew 26:28 For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:2424 And he said unto them, This is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:2020 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Acts 20:2828 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath PURCHASED with his own BLOOD.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH in HIS BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED by HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the BLOOD of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and BLOOD of the Lord.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made NIGH by the BLOOD of Christ.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made PEACE THROUGH THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having OBTAINED eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and WITHOUT shedding of BLOOD is no remission.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is NOT possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath COUNTED the BLOOD of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an UNHOLY thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh BETTER things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the BLOOD of the EVERLASTING covenant,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1 Peter 1:19 BUT [ye know that ye were redeemed] with the precious BLOOD of CHRIST, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ his Son CLEANSETH us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED us from our sins in HIS OWN BLOOD,

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have WASHED their robes, and made them white in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

Revelation 12:11 And they OVERCAME him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You have to come THOUGH HIS BLOOD to get to God. If you have not been washed in HIS BLOOD you are still outside God's prescribed way of victory.

I pray that some day you will see that you need HIS BLOOD to be washed and cleansed of your sins just as He said.

It is incumbent exclusively on you to either accept or reject HIS BLOOD shed to remit the sin of the world. All who come through the BLOOD shed on the Cross of Calvary will be accepted by God those who reject the BLOOD will be rejected by God.

I don't see the blood as you do, just as the water is the word and rivers of living water is the spirit, the blood is the life, living it out in flesh. Look at these verses all are Hebrews 12:4 in different translations

NIV

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

NLT

After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin

KJV

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


Jesus shed his blood, (gave his whole his life) only to do the will of the living God, he came by water and blood. He came by the word and lived it out, not by water only, but by water and blood. Many come by water only, great swelling words, but they don't like to deny themselves and live it out! So Jesus came and lived it and he was a perfect example, showing us the way back to God.

The verse above (NIV) says that they had not yet resisted to the point of shedding their blood. We don't shed our blood naturally, we live it out, we become a living sacrifice, and so was Jesus. He laid down his life for God, he never lived to please himself he sacrificed his whole life and never sinned and he overcame Satan. Jesus himself said, have no fear for I have overcome the world, and he also said that this world had nothing in him. Jesus calls the devil the prince of this of this world. Jesus overcame Satan and the flesh, by not sinning and showing love and mercy even to those that crucified him, and he suffered, he denied himself and he took abuse and never retaliated. He showed us the the living God and he showed us way back to God. A new and living way

Hebrews 10

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,*By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Jesus came in the flesh and brought us a new as living way to live.

John 6

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me*

Jesus said that those who eat him shall live by him. We don't naturally eat him, we take him all in, his flesh and his blood, which is his life, so if we take his life in, we will live by him, we will live it out.

Also

Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Without taking Christ in, we have no life, Jesus didn't tell us to drink his natural blood, but to take his life in. And his life in us by the spirit changes us, and we are covered in his blood (his life) inwardly and outwardly and our old man will be seen no more and a will be living by the will of God as Jesus did, and the only way is through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 26

For this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

He isn't talking about his natural blood, he's talking about his life. He's talking about his whole life. The covenant isn't in death but in life. Jesus came and fulfilled the laws, he lived by them and now through believing in and following him and having faith in God. We will pass from death to life and will live by the spirit, and God our father will write his laws upon our hearts and in our minds. Putting to death our old man and bringing us to life with the new and we will be born anew, living by the spirit of God and worshipping God in spirit and in truth. And people will see Christ through us in our lives.

Jesus was dead to the flesh and this world and alive in God. And he wants those of us who love him to follow him and deny ourselves and bare our cross as he did. And be dead to the flesh by the spirit, and alive in God. That is, if we are willing to lay down our lives.

I believe in the blood of Christ and the cross of Christ, I just don't see the blood or the cross as you do. Jesus said that he had finished the work the father had given him to do before he was crucified on the wooden cross. And that work was to, bare witness of the truth and preach the gospel and bring us the true way and the true life which was in Jesus. His way is the only way as it's a narrow way.

I don't think we can go any further, I've explained myself as you have.

And I'd be very careful who you see as rejected by God. I bet many believed that the thief on the cross was rejected and wasn't, and he didn't say that he believed that Jesus died on the cross to save him. He said that Jesus didn't deserve to die because he'd done nothing wrong. And he said that he himself did because he had sinned and then he said lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom, he had faith.

Also Jesus said this

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And I have faith in God and Christ and I believe and know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent!
 
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Rosenritter

New member
And I'd be very careful who you see as rejected by God. I bet many believed that the thief on the cross was rejected and wasn't, and he didn't say that he believed that Jesus died on the cross to save him. He said that Jesus didn't deserve to die because he'd done nothing wrong. And he said that he himself did because he had sinned and then he said lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom, he had faith.

It seems to me that the thief on the cross acknowledged that his sin, and appealed to one that was without sin for forgiveness. Did Jesus have the power to forgive sin? I think his answer "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" acknowledged that he did. Who can forgive sin but God alone? His appeal would seem misplaced without faith that Jesus was genuinely who he claimed to be, the judge of the quick and the dead, coming into a Kingdom that would raise the thief after he would be dead in a few short hours hence.

I understand that it would be convenient if we had access to a greater discussion at that time and place, but the conditions weren't very conducive for more words. You try having a deep complex discussion while you are nailed to a cross and have trouble breathing. They only had the ability to hit the most basic and essential, to wit, repentance and forgiveness.
 

marhig

New member
It seems to me that the thief on the cross acknowledged that his sin, and appealed to one that was without sin for forgiveness. Did Jesus have the power to forgive sin? I think his answer "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise" acknowledged that he did. Who can forgive sin but God alone? His appeal would seem misplaced without faith that Jesus was genuinely who he claimed to be, the judge of the quick and the dead, coming into a Kingdom that would raise the thief after he would be dead in a few short hours hence.

I understand that it would be convenient if we had access to a greater discussion at that time and place, but the conditions weren't very conducive for more words. You try having a deep complex discussion while you are nailed to a cross and have trouble breathing. They only had the ability to hit the most basic and essential, to wit, repentance and forgiveness.

I can't even think about Jesus suffering like that, it makes me cry. To hurt anyone is wrong, but how anyone could torture and crucify another person is way beyond me. And to do that to Jesus, i just can't understand it. I can't glorify that, it makes me feel physically sick. I was reading a while back about the first century Christians, and it said they didn't worship the cross all, but saw it as the murder weapon that killed Christ!

But the whole point to that part of my post was to say that no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The thief was saved in the last few hours of his life. Who are we to judge?

For instance, what if you have someone in the same church as you, who looked the part, believed the same way as you, but inside they were wicked. Then in another church, totally contrary to your beliefs, there's someone who you don't agree with at all. But they love God with all their heart have faith, and live to please and obey him always. Yet, some on your church would see them as unsaved and the one in your church as saved.

I could never ever call another person unsaved, because I'm just human, and a sinner and my ways of thinking in my flesh are far away from Gods ways and I don't know the true heart of anyone, God knows the innermost depths of our hearts. I do know one thing though, the spirit of God is teaching me that I'm to care for and help anyone i meet, whoever they are and whatever they believe, and i hope that everyone will get to know the true living God and his son Christ Jesus, Jesus is the way God, and i hope that all will know him and be saved, I don't see anyone as unsaved but everyone as savable right up until the last breath leaves their body!
 

Rosenritter

New member
I can't even think about Jesus suffering like that, it makes me cry. To hurt anyone is wrong, but how anyone could torture and crucify another person is way beyond me. And to do that to Jesus, i just can't understand it. I can't glorify that, it makes me feel physically sick. I was reading a while back about the first century Christians, and it said they didn't worship the cross all, but saw it as the murder weapon that killed Christ!

But the whole point to that part of my post was to say that no one knows who is going to heaven and who isn't. The thief was saved in the last few hours of his life. Who are we to judge?

For instance, what if you have someone in the same church as you, who looked the part, believed the same way as you, but inside they were wicked. Then in another church, totally contrary to your beliefs, there's someone who you don't agree with at all. But they love God with all their heart have faith, and live to please and obey him always. Yet, some on your church would see them as unsaved and the one in your church as saved.

I could never ever call another person unsaved, because I'm just human, and a sinner and my ways of thinking in my flesh are far away from Gods ways and I don't know the true heart of anyone, God knows the innermost depths of our hearts. I do know one thing though, the spirit of God is teaching me that I'm to care for and help anyone i meet, whoever they are and whatever they believe, and i hope that everyone will get to know the true living God and his son Christ Jesus, Jesus is the way God, and i hope that all will know him and be saved, I don't see anyone as unsaved but everyone as savable right up until the last breath leaves their body!

To those of us who understand who Jesus was, the cross is not a shame but the symbol of his love and our salvation.

Gal 6:14 KJV
(14) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

You asked, who are we to judge the thief? We aren't the ones to judge the thief. Jesus said that he was. What else can be inferred from this?

Luk 23:41-43 KJV
(41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus is the judge of the quick and the dead. This man was worthy of death and under the penalty of the wages of sin. Jesus forgave that sin by his declaration that this man would be with him in Paradise. He did this of his own authority, and not that of another. IF the point of your post was "Who are we to judge" the point of this reply is that "Jesus is the one to judge."

Luk 5:20-21 KJV
(20) And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
(21) And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
 

Rosenritter

New member
These three testify.

What!?!

Nailed it!

But let's over complicate it so we can fight about it!!!!

Sweet!


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
Wait a minute, are you sure you are remembering that right? I thought I knew where you were but the words look different. Could you please nail that on the big screen for us so we can all see it?
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
Wait a minute, are you sure you are remembering that right? I thought I knew where you were but the words look different. Could you please nail that on the big screen for us so we can all see it?
I was being a smart ellic. I was throwing a paraphrase of a verse out jokingly and suggesting that we make the understanding of God so complicated that we generate 1,000,000s of doctrines to fight over.

Peace is my true stance.

I think this is a wonderful thread, but I was just going for a chuckle.

Sorry if I caused confusion.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

marhig

New member
those of us who understand who Jesus was, the cross is not a shame but the symbol of his love and our salvation.

Do you understand Jesus enough to know that he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth? Because that's the reason he himself said he came here according to the Bible.

Also, they believe that Jesus didn't die on a cross but a stake or pole, the cross that Paul is talking about is the same cross as Jesus told us that we have to bare.

When he said take up your cross and follow me, did he mean that we must be crucified also? Paul is talking about the suffering Jesus went through to bring us the truth and preach the gospel, and the Paul is also partaking in those sufferings, and he is saying that the lusts of the flesh and worldly desires are dead to him and he's dead to the flesh and the world, as he's obeying God and denying himself, baring his cross and following Jesus and the holy spirit through Christ strengthens him to overcome, thus Paul is dying daily and Christ is living in him and through him.

You asked, who are we to judge the thief?

No, I said who are we to judge anyone! I said that many of those at that time, who saw the thief would have seen him as unsaved, but he was saved in his last hours. We don't know the heart of one another like God does, and we can't judge one another. The word of God does the judging, we should just speak what we hear and be there for everyone and anyone who needs us. God knows our hearts and he knows who has really heard the truth, and we are judged on that.

"Jesus is the one to judge."

John 12

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Romans 8

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.*And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me

John 5

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 12

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus judged by the word that God was giving him and by his life, and every word he spoke came from the father. Because that's who he lived for. He lived for God, and God gave him full strength of the holy spirit and his judgement was just because he only ever did the will of God, there was no sin in him. And we are judged through Christ.

I definitely don't see the cross as a symbol of love in anyway whatsoever! It's a vile torture instrument on which they crucified by wicked hands the lord of glory!
 

Rosenritter

New member
Do you understand Jesus enough to know that he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth? Because that's the reason he himself said he came here according to the Bible.

Also, they believe that Jesus didn't die on a cross but a stake or pole, the cross that Paul is talking about is the same cross as Jesus told us that we have to bare.

When he said take up your cross and follow me, did he mean that we must be crucified also? Paul is talking about the suffering Jesus went through to bring us the truth and preach the gospel, and the Paul is also partaking in those sufferings, and he is saying that the lusts of the flesh and worldly desires are dead to him and he's dead to the flesh and the world, as he's obeying God and denying himself, baring his cross and following Jesus and the holy spirit through Christ strengthens him to overcome, thus Paul is dying daily and Christ is living in him and through him.



No, I said who are we to judge anyone! I said that many of those at that time, who saw the thief would have seen him as unsaved, but he was saved in his last hours. We don't know the heart of one another like God does, and we can't judge one another. The word of God does the judging, we should just speak what we hear and be there for everyone and anyone who needs us. God knows our hearts and he knows who has really heard the truth, and we are judged on that.



John 12

If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Romans 8

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.*And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me

John 5

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 12

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus judged by the word that God was giving him and by his life, and every word he spoke came from the father. Because that's who he lived for. He lived for God, and God gave him full strength of the holy spirit and his judgement was just because he only ever did the will of God, there was no sin in him. And we are judged through Christ.

I definitely don't see the cross as a symbol of love in anyway whatsoever! It's a vile torture instrument on which they crucified by wicked hands the lord of glory!

1. Just to make it clear, I am not disputing the actions you would take.

2. Jesus gave another reason why he came into this world.

John 12:30-33 KJV
(30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
(31) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Don't have a stigma about the cross. Jesus turned something vile into a symbol of his love. To answer something you said, we are not to take literal crosses any more than we are to eat his literal flesh or drink his literal blood. Those are all symbols, even alluded to in the Old Testament through the lamb that was slain.

3. Jesus did say that he will judge the world.


John 5:21-22 KJV
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Is this a contradiction? You posted verses saying that Jesus would not judge the world, and I posted verses from the same bible saying he would judge the world. I don't think they conflict. Jesus was not judging the world then, for his kingdom was not of that world. He will judge the world at his coming and his kingdom, he will judge the world as judge of the quick and the dead in the resurrection. It's a timing issue.


* Oh, since this is a Trinity discussion board, I wanted to point out something from the 2 Timothy 4:1 passage. When I read that verse I notice that it says "God and the Lord Jesus Christ" and I understand this to be definitive repetition, in the same sense as Isaiah says "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts" (duplication) or as Thomas said "My Lord and my God."

* But if this was read in a Trinity sense, it makes less sense, for it does not say "The Father and Jesus Christ" or "The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ" but rather "God (three persons) and Jesus (one person)" and as such it does not seem to agree grammatically.
 

marhig

New member
I don't see the cross as a symbol of love in any way whatsoever. They scourged Jesus, plaited a crown of thorns and put them on his head, nailed him to a tree and stripped and mocked him giving him vinegar when he needed water and watched him slowly die. There's nothing glorious and wonderful about that at all. I can't agree with it being wondrous in any way.

Think about it, if you were at the cross, what would you be doing? Would you be shouting crucify him, crucify him with the crowds? I wouldn't I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs, please don't kill him, save him, he's the Christ, don't crucify him. I love Jesus and i can't see the crucifixion as wonderful!

I asked that question to 2 young Mormons who came to my house one day. And one said I'd shout crucify him because he had to die to save us. And the other turned sharply told him off and said no way, I'd be shouting save him, I wouldn't want them to crucify Jesus. I said "neither would i"

John 5:21-22 KJV
(21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

If you go a bit further down to verse 30, that's where it says this.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And every day we ask for the kingdom to come into our hearts, once we have the holy spirit, then Christ by the spirit through us, does the judging by the word.

What do you believe about the following verses?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me

By the way, regarding the trinity, you touched upon this (below), it doesn't sound like God is Jesus to me, but rather saying before God... And our lord Jesus Christ

2 Timothy 4:1

before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ

And here's how it's written in other chapters, which go totally against the trinity.

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory

1 Peter 1

Blessed*be*the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

There are more verses that say the same, but I need to go tidy up and haven't got time to look, I shouldn't even be on here now! :)
 
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lifeisgood

New member
I have faith in God and Christ and I believe and know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent!

But NO BLOOD and without blood there is no remission for any of your sin; therefore, you have rejected God's only way of victory.

That's your decision to make though.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I don't see the cross as a symbol of love in any way whatsoever. They scourged Jesus, plaited a crown of thorns and put them on his head, nailed him to a tree and stripped and mocked him giving him vinegar when he needed water and watched him slowly die. There's nothing glorious and wonderful about that at all. I can't agree with it being wondrous in any way.

Think about it, if you were at the cross, what would you be doing? Would you be shouting crucify him, crucify him with the crowds? I wouldn't I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs, please don't kill him, save him, he's the Christ, don't crucify him. I love Jesus and i can't see the crucifixion as wonderful!

I asked that question to 2 young Mormons who came to my house one day. And one said I'd shout crucify him because he had to die to save us. And the other turned sharply told him off and said no way, I'd be shouting save him, I wouldn't want them to crucify Jesus. I said "neither would i"

I think you may misunderstand what the cross was intended to symbolize. It does not represent the cruelty and injustice of the Romans, nor the hypocrisy and betrayal of the Pharisees. What it does represent is that Jesus laid down his life in spite of these things and forgave them, and by his resurrection he showed that death had no power over him. The empty cross is now a symbol of victory over adversity, evil, and death. This is the symbol as used by Paul and Christ. But let's not beat that into the ground any more than we have already. Imagery is a matter of emotion just as much as logic.

I would take your question to the Mormon missionaries a step further. You would not attempt to crucify him but would you attempt to stop the crucifixion from happening? The gospels tell us what happened when someone did try to stop it. In both cases it was Peter.
First time, Matthew 16:21-23 KJV
(21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
(22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
(23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Second time, Matthew 26:50-54 KJV(50) And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
(51) And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
(54) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


If you had told Jesus that you didn't want it to happen, what might have he had said, considering what he said to Peter?
 
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