The Trinity

The Trinity

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Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
marhig said:
Yes but Jesus had a choice. He could have done his will if he wished, as can we, And he also said that he had a will, your bank account has no will.

But Jesus chose to do the will of the Father who sent him. Thus he's not the father and the father is his God, Christ Jesus even followed commandments given to him. He wouldn't have been given commandments from God. If he was God.

And it's clearly written in the bible, by the apostles "the God and father OF our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have to believe what's written, and Jesus himself even called God his God and father, and he called the father the only true God. So why shouldn't I believe him?
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The analogy of the bank account only goes so far. If you want a more precise analogy I need to dip into newer technology or science-fiction for illustrative examples. Your question about will is also answered with analogy. For example, if you marry someone, you make a vow to love them forever. That is your stated will. Later in life, you may encounter trouble that may threaten to cool that love, to act counter to your stated will. Will you obey your will then, or will you obey your will now?

Consider that "Father" as Christ's will determined before hand, and Christ's will as the exercise of that will in the actual live situation. Like I use with the analogy of the alarm clock. My stated will is for me to get up at a specific time. When it is that time, my will may pull me to do otherwise, to ignore the clock. Both are my will, even though there are two different wills.

Why shouldn't you believe Jesus? You should. Which is why when Jesus says "I AM" and calls himself the first and the last, the beginning and the end ... and besides which there is no other God (is the continuation of that reference) you're also supposed to believe him when he speaks plainly. In all these months I have never heard you attempt to answer these plain statements of scripture. I've only heard you skirt about them and hide behind the metaphorical references of indirection.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Bright Raven said:
yes
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That is right, it is Jesus' sword.

So tell me why you do not believe Jesus is the Spirit?

Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.


Did you read that?

The scripture says the SWORD of the SPIRIT.

That proves that Jesus is the Rider on the horse, and he is the Spirit.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
popsthebuilder said:
That's what i said, but did you miss the words of your own quote?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you think punishment is for repentance of the soul or do you regard it as eternal destruction? Don't you know that even the fallen angels are in the pit for but a term?

GOD is not slack concerning HIS promise.

We know literally all things will be reconsiled to GOD, by HIS Word that is truth and promise.
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There is more than one type of punishment. Punishment can be redemptive in nature, but an eternal punishment is permanent.

Psa 68:2 KJV
(2) As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Pe 2:11-12 KJV
(11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Lest there be any confusion, to perish is the opposite of eternal life.

Joh 3:15-16 KJV
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 10:27-28 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The fallen angels are in the pit for a term, until they are let loose for a season. Did you read what happens next? Their rebellion is crushed, and we arrive on the scene of judgment. Isaiah and Ezekiel already tells us what is in store for the rebellious angels, the spiritual seed of Babylon.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
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God's Truth said:
That is right, it is Jesus' sword.

So tell me why you do not believe Jesus is the Spirit?

Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.


Did you read that?

The scripture says the SWORD of the SPIRIT.

That proves that Jesus is the Rider on the horse, and he is the Spirit.
Click to expand...

He is not the Spirit. The Father sent the Spirit.
 
RealityJerk

RealityJerk

New member
Rosenritter said:
Ah, I understand what you were reacting to now. I sincerely apologize. It's just that you sounded really strange and random.

1 Corinthians 9:9 KJV
(9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

No one has made any allegation that Moses is God. Moses sinned against God, God did not let him enter the promised land. No one ever came to Moses and said "you maketh yourself God" and Moses never ever called himself by names or titles of God.

1 Corinthians 9:21 KJV
(21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

We have a different situation with Christ, whom John introduces as the Word who was God, and then ends his gospel with "my Lord and my God." If Jesus were not actually our God in the flesh (which it actually does say elsewhere) then it would be very important for Paul (and any other writer) to make that distinction clear.

So to me this is a fairly obvious correlation and evidence, it's another strand woven around all the others that are already there. I am not asking you to be persuaded by that passage. There's far stronger and more direct. That was an indirect reference I noticed in passing that I'd not noticed before.
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My objection, was with your argument that, since Paul used the term "Law of Christ", that indicates or somehow proves Christ's divinity. If using the term "Law Of Christ", suggests that Christ is God, then when the bible identifies God's law, as the "Law of Moses", that would also, following your line of reasoning, suggest Moses' is God. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If the term "Law of Christ" points to Christ's divinity, then "Law Of Moses" would point to Moses' divinity. I don't believe Christ or Moses are YHWH. I'm simply making an observation, of the implications of what you're proposing.

As far as John 1:1..It's not clear as to whether the Logos that was with God, is a person or just a god or divine person. The Logos, may not be "GOD" with a capital "G". There are many gods and powers, mentioned in the bible, and all of them aren't false gods. David is called god, Moses is identified as god, the judges of Israel are gods, angels are gods. The devil is the "god of this age/aeon". That doesn't imply that these gods or powers, authorities, are the almighty God. YHWH, the one true God ( with a capital G).

Thomas might not have been directing those words to Jesus, but to YHWH. However, even if he was directing those words to Jesus, that doesn't necessarily imply that Thomas was identifying Jesus as YHWH, the One True God. The end of the gospel of John, tells us the purpose of that gospel. It's for us to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus had a God, His God, is the one true God, YHWH, the heavenly Father.

It's best for us to rely on the gospel of Matthew, which is the only gospel written to Israel, in Hebrew or Aramaic, by one of the 12 apostles. Matthew's gospel, has more authority, and takes precedence, over all of the others. Wherever one gospel, might disagree with Matthew on a certain issue, we should side with Matthew's version. Israel maintains three levels of scriptural authority. All of the books, in the Jewish or Israelite canon of scripture, don't hold equal authority. There's Torah, Nevem, Kethuvim / The Law - Prophets - Writings.

As disciples of Messiah, those called out from the nations, we must hold the words of Messiah, in the gospel of Matthew, as having the highest authority, equal to Torah. Messiah delivered the Torah to Moses on mount Sinai, and His interpretation of Torah, is to be observed. We are in the process, of entering the promise land. The Jordan is near, and we will cross it soon, but we are not there yet. The New Covenant is dawning, replacing the night or darkness of this fallen age. The New Covenant will be consummated, with the house of Israel and Judah, when Messiah returns. It's Israel/Judah, united, that will reign with Messiah, over the nations.
 
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Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
RealityJerk said:
My objection, was with your argument that, since Paul used the term "Law of Christ", that indicates or somehow proves Christ's divinity. If using the term "Law Of Christ", suggests that Christ is God, then when the bible identifies God's law, as the "Law of Moses", that would also, following your line of reasoning, suggest Moses' is God. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If the term "Law of Christ" points to Christ's divinity, then "Law Of Moses" would point to Moses' divinity. I don't believe Christ or Moses are YHWH. I'm simply making an observation, of the implications of what you're proposing.
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Paul doesn't use the law of Moses as a synonym for the law of God. See Romans 7:22, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:7. And whereas Moses is known to have gone up unto a mountain to receive the law of God and to have returned with stone tablets, we have no such event concerning Christ. The words of Jesus were God's words.

1Co 9:21 KJV
(21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Besides, if you read closely you will not that this is not a term of "the law of God" being invoked. Paul isn't using a recognized name, he is using actual language. "Being now without law to God" and "under the law to Christ" are one and the same. The only change in words are the objects, God and Christ, and Paul uses them interchangeably.

This wouldn't be the only place he freely interchanges them either. "Every knee shall bow?" Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10. We know Jesus is Christ because Paul interchanges the words, we know Jesus is God because Paul interchanges the words. Even the very passage where God uses for "for I am God, there is none else" and "a just God and a Savior, there is none beside me" Paul takes this identification and applies it to Jesus.

Spoiler
Isa 45:21-23 KJV
(21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:10-12 KJV
(10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
(12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Php 2:9-11 KJV
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Note that in the Romans passage above, we stand at the judgment seat of Christ, and give account of ourselves to God. Another equivalence. And in Philippians Paul has quoted the passage from Isaiah slightly differently this time, where "unto me every knee shall bow" is now "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow."

Speaking plainly, Paul wasn't Unitarian. No Unitarian writes like this. If we allow that Paul's words are inspired scripture, look at how he writes. Out of all possible interpretations, his interpretation is the correct one. His understanding was that God and Christ and Jesus were the same. He may use different terms as the occasion arises, but he has no trouble with swapping them about freely as synonyms.

 
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