The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

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Trinity Definition Question

Trinity Definition Question

So I thought it might be useful to try to get a definition for Trinity again. Using Google, one of the first entries that pops up is from James White (he seems to be the modern-day specialist on this subject):

http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html
We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite.This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.


It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms"being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is,yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what"and "who" when we talk about a person.

Could someone provide an interpretation of what James White just said here? If a rock has being, but there are many individual rocks, and a cat has a cat being, but there are many individual cats, then there are "human beings" and many individual humans... then he is saying there are three individuals in the "God" being? Is he just using "being" like the way we use "species?"
The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak.Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say,work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit.One what, three who's.

But of the "human being" I would say that "we are many" and there are many humans. This would be well understood. Under the same theme that he describes, one would also say there were three Gods. He is very emphatic that these three individuals (of the God being, just like we have a rock being, a cat being, and a human being) and that these are in no way the same person.

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:
1) There is one and only one God, eternal,immutable.
2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture -the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone understand what James White is saying here? He is by no means a hostile witness, but using his definitions, if I were to use a death ray machine and kill everyone on this planet except myself, my wife, and my daughter, we would then be a Trinity. One Human (one in being) but three distinct individuals, not the same as the others. "One what, and three who's" and all we would be lacking is eternal life. But otherwise we would be a Trinity of Father, Mother, and Daughter.

... and before someone gets upset at me for suggesting this, I am just trying to understand what James White has written,and thus I only use this for example. I don't see how what he describes is any different from someone that says there are three Gods.

Is James White correctly representing the Trinity doctrine?
 
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Bright Raven

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So I thought it might be useful to try to get a definition for Trinity again. Using Google, one of the first entries that pops up is from James White (he seems to be the modern-day specialist on this subject):

http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html


Could someone provide an interpretation of what James White just said here? If a rock has being, but there are many individual rocks, and a cat has a cat being, but there are many individual cats, then there are "human beings" and many individual humans... then he is saying there are three individuals in the "God" being? Is he just using "being" like the way we use "species?"


But of the "human being" I would say that "we are many" and there are many humans. This would be well understood. Under the same theme that he describes, one would also say there were three Gods. He is very emphatic that these three individuals (of the God being, just like we have a rock being, a cat being, and a human being) and that these are in no way the same person.



Does anyone understand what James White is saying here? He is by no means a hostile witness, but using his definitions, if I were to use a death ray machine and kill everyone on this planet except myself, my wife, and my daughter, we would then be a Trinity. One Human (one in being) but three distinct individuals, not the same as the others. "One what, and three who's" and all we would be lacking is eternal life. But otherwise we would be a Trinity of Father, Mother, and Daughter.

... and before someone gets upset at me for suggesting this, I am just trying to understand what James White has written,and thus I only use this for example. I don't see how what he describes is any different from someone that says there are three Gods.

Is James White correctly representing the Trinity doctrine?

The answer to your question, yes. If you do not believe in the trinity that is your loss. It means that you do not have a true understanding of the nature of God. Do you deny the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
 

lifeisgood

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And that's why God wants our flesh dead and his son living through us, because he wants to see the life of his son being lived out in his children

And you CANNOT be His Disciple unless you come to Him and what He did.

How can whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it?

By accepting Him and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary in your stead. You cannot provide for your own salvation. No matter how much you work to provide your own salvation. God ONLY accepts His Sacrifice and His work which is Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary. There is NO other God's prescribed order of victory.

God has left the decision for you to accept or reject God's prescribed order of victory - Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus the Christ wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You got Jesus wrong.
 

lifeisgood

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I haven't rejected Jesus Christ at all, I love him from the depths of my heart, and I have complete faith in him.

But you do not love His work from the depths of your heart and you have no faith that He completed the mission commissioned to Him, which was to provide the PERFECT SACRIFICE so that you can be forgiven your sin because ONLY His blood can cover your sin.

If you separate Jesus from His finished work then you have rejected God's only prescribed order of victory.

One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus Christ wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You got Jesus and His mission wrong.

I sorry, I thanked this by accident

I am sure you can UNthank it.
 

Lazy afternoon

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Wrong and wrong!

Jesus, is a unitarian.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


LA
 

Bright Raven

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Jesus, is a unitarian.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


LA

What kind of dope have you been smoking?


John 3:16 American Standard Version (ASV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Not quite unitarian.
 

Lazy afternoon

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What kind of dope have you been smoking?


John 3:16 American Standard Version (ASV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Not quite unitarian.

Jesus taught the worship of one God, the Father.

Unitarianism teaches the same.
.
They are not Oneness (Modelism) as you seem to think they are

LA
 

Rosenritter

New member
The answer to your question, yes. If you do not believe in the trinity that is your loss. It means that you do not have a true understanding of the nature of God. Do you deny the existence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

So to clarify, James White is correctly representing the Trinity doctrine when he says that "One God" really means "One Race of God People" seeing that he uses the "One Being" analogy in regards to a "One Rock being" and "One Cat Being." As such he really is saying there are three individuals within this "One Race of God People." Three people within One Master God Race. Got it... I think.

So how does that differ from Polytheism? Can you explain the difference for me? Polytheism also embraces One Race of Gods of the same kind... such as Thor, Odin, Freya, etc...all of which it recognizes as distinct individuals as well. Seeing that James White condemns Polytheism, I would like to understand the difference.

You asked, "Do you deny the existence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" Here, I will do better than merely answer, I will show you by what I have already said. I asked Right Divider a question that specifically cited scripture naming the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I then asked a question about the Trinity based upon those scriptures. If Right Divider cannot answer in the next day or so, would you be able to answer for him?

It's just up the page at post 1460.



 

marhig

New member
But you do not love His work from the depths of your heart and you have no faith that He completed the mission commissioned to Him, which was to provide the PERFECT SACRIFICE so that you can be forgiven your sin because ONLY His blood can cover your sin.

If you separate Jesus from His finished work then you have rejected God's only prescribed order of victory.

One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus Christ wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You got Jesus and His mission wrong.


You see the way I believe as being wrong, but, I believe that Jesus came as a living sacrifice, and that by him not sinning he was dead to this flesh, I believe that he suffered and denied his will, sacrificing his whole life to bring us the truth, and he bore his cross and denied Satan until his last breath thus overcoming him and the world and he is the way back to God and that his way is the only way, and he is the life, and I believe that following him is living it out and walking the walk. I believe that I'm to deny myself, bare my cross and that I am to follow Jesus if i truly believe in him.

Some denominations teach that you only have to believe and that's it, that his natural blood human sacrifice covers their sins, even if they are still sinning and including all their future sins, I believe that his blood is his life, he came by water and by blood, he came with the word of God and lived it out, and when we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we remember him, I see this as is taking all of his life in and living it out, taking in his blood, which is the life within, and eating his flesh which is living it out and remembering him always.

Whereas some see that Jesus life hides their sins, even wilful sins which haven't yet been committed, I believe that his life in me, which is his blood, stops me sinning, as his life starts to grow in me, by the spirit, then my old life starts go, and I am covered by his life because God doesn't see my sins anymore, as my past sins are forgiven when I repented, and the spirit of God in my heart is guiding me and stopping me from sinning now if I obey him and he's putting my old life to death. I was ignorant and didn't know God. But once i know, then I must stop wilfully sinning and obey God. And as God puts me to death, others will see the life of Christ through me and they won't see my sinful flesh anymore.

I don't believe in OSAS. And that Christ's blood covers my sins i believe that Christ's blood stops us sinning and he covers us in that his life is seen in us and our old life is gone and as we are dying daily, his life is growing in us. The gospel i believe in isn't a do nothing yourself just believe gospel, but an obey the living God and the spirit does the works within, and we live those works out gospel, I believe that I am to live it out, and deny myself for God to live, and I then become a living sacrifice for God to do his will through me and for others to see Christ in me.

Hebrews 12

Kjv

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

NIV

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Meaning, some are hearers of the word and not doers, they aren't living it out. We don't have to shed our natural blood to follow Jesus, but live it out as he did, and through us his light can shine as a guide to others.

I believe that Jesus shedding his blood, was him living it out, he poured out his life and brought us the living God and the true way, i don't believe that it's his death on the cross that saves us but his life.

My beliefs are that God wants sin put to death in our hearts, and through Christ, the spirit does puts sin to death as we obey him, thus we are hidden in the life of Christ, NOT that he covers all our sins even wilful sins so that God doesn't see them, even those we are still doing. Repentance isn't just saying sorry, true repentance is to say sorry and stop.

God is so merciful and forgiving, but he won't be mocked. We can't think that once we know God, we can wilfully sin and doesn't mind because he knows we sinners anyway so he won't see our sins and because we are covered in the blood of Christ and were ok. That isn't the truth! He wants our life, and he wants to see the life of his son in us and through us and our fleshly lusts and our desires for the things of this world gone, making us a holy temple, not built by the hand of man, but like a potters vessel, we are shaped inside and outside by the hand of the living God, desiring him more than anything else. And if we are truly following him and denying ourselves, then his love in us will be so strong that not only will he be stopping us sinning, but his love will be pouring out of us and we will love others, whoever they are. Because God is pure love, and he loves us all.

I fear God, and I know that i can't just carry on living my life as I please and that i should be denying myself so God can live, God wants clean vessels inside to use, not just cleaned on the outside who just look the part.

Jesus' mission, in his words was that he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth and his sheep hear his voice, I hear his voice loud and clear and I follow him my life. I believe that following him is living it out being a doer, not just a hearer and I believe that i got his mission right!
 

God's Truth

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I will answer your question, but you must then answer my question. Is that fair?



That's a new phrase for me, so I would consider what passages might reflect on that statement one way or the other.

Although I think that saying may not be perfectly accurate, I think I understand what is meant and why it would be said. Jesus said that the Father was in him, that he and the Father were one, and if you had seen him you had seen the Father. Yet I don't think it is correct to say that the Father lacked "body" ... so change that to be "The Son is the Father in the flesh" and that starts to seem accurate indeed.

So even though you seemed a bit upset with me, I answered your question. Please answer this question before replying further.

Question: We know that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, but which member of the Trinity was the divine parent? Please bear in mind that according to Trinity definition, the Father is NOT the Son, nor the Son the Spirit, nor the Spirit the Father.

a) Joseph, a man
b) God the Father
c) God the Holy Spirit
d) God the Son

Right Divider got that phrase from me about Jesus being the Father with a body.

You said you did not agree with that phrase but thought saying Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. Which to me is the same as saying God the Father with a body. I am glad to hear from someone else who understands that truth.

God the Father is Spirit, He is invisible.

Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus is the body of God.

Even in heaven before Jesus came to earth, he was the body of God.
 

Bright Raven

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Jesus taught the worship of one God, the Father.

Unitarianism teaches the same.
.
They are not Oneness (Modelism) as you seem to think they are

LA

Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Who is the Son? Who is the Holy Ghost? Do you have an answer?
 

Rosenritter

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Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Who is the Son? Who is the Holy Ghost? Do you have an answer?
Matthew 28:19 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Looks to me that Peter and the apostles knew the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They said his name was Jesus.

Acts 8:16 KJV
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
 

Bright Raven

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Matthew 28:19 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Looks to me that Peter and the apostles knew the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They said his name was Jesus.

Acts 8:16 KJV
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

No! That is oneness pentecostal teaching. Scripture is clear and makes distinctions between the three.
 

Rosenritter

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No! That is oneness pentecostal teaching. Scripture is clear and makes distinctions between the three.
It does?

I know that the Athanasian Creed makes strong distinctions, but scripture always seemed to blur them together. The first mention of God being called Father attributes the name to the Christ child. Famous verse, Isaiah 9:6.

If its good enough for Isaiah and good enough for Peter and the apostles shouldn't that be good enough for us?
 

Rosenritter

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Yes it does.

2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. :poly:
I don't see any distinction made in your passage. What about here?

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I will answer your question, but you must then answer my question. Is that fair?



That's a new phrase for me, so I would consider what passages might reflect on that statement one way or the other.

Although I think that saying may not be perfectly accurate, I think I understand what is meant and why it would be said. Jesus said that the Father was in him, that he and the Father were one, and if you had seen him you had seen the Father. Yet I don't think it is correct to say that the Father lacked "body" ... so change that to be "The Son is the Father in the flesh" and that starts to seem accurate indeed.

So even though you seemed a bit upset with me, I answered your question. Please answer this question before replying further.

Question: We know that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, but which member of the Trinity was the divine parent? Please bear in mind that according to Trinity definition, the Father is NOT the Son, nor the Son the Spirit, nor the Spirit the Father.

a) Joseph, a man
b) God the Father
c) God the Holy Spirit
d) God the Son
Bright Raven, can you tell me which gospel is correct and which is in error? Was it the Father or the Holy Ghost that impregnated Mary? You are pretty adamant that scripture makes clear distinctions so can you please tell me which gospel we can trust? Matthew or John?
 
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