The Trinity

[Nihilo]

OK... let's say I am a rich and powerful person that doesn't care what others think. Like a medieval king, a drug lord, or Justin Beiber. If I am in a position that I cannot be harmed by the consequences of my actions, and I am already granted forgiveness for all things by God in heaven, is there any incentive for me to forgive others their trespasses against me? Why should I grant indulgences to anyone in such a case?

This hypothetical you; they believe the Gospel, that He is risen, Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV?

Assuming so, what could we do, that's moral, about this problem?

Are there any examples from Sacred Scripture that might inform us?

 

[Rosenritter]

I already addressed this. Since death is the last enemy that will be destroyed, and those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire after death, the last enemy, is destroyed: then those thrown into the lake of fire will not be destroyed.

I don't understand your reasoning here. Here's the sequence of events so far:

1) Christ returns
2) The rest of the dead are raised to judgment
3) The wicked are destroyed, cast into the lake of fire
4) Death too is destroyed, being the last remaining enemy

What I don't see in this sequence is anything that would restore the wicked to life again.

Also, there would be no need to specify who can enter into New Jerusalem if those who are outside were destroyed.

Yes, there is. It's called repetition for emphasis. The scripture is full of this mechanism.

Furthermore, there is no indication in any of the scriptures that talk about the lake of fire that those thrown within will be destroyed. That they are destroyed in the lake of fire is only personally inferred, and never stated outright.

I'm certain that there's quite a few passages in this regard. I have seen Universalist authors (i.e. Gary Amirault) admit that the words and language of the bible do overwhelmingly teach annihilation. How many explicit statements do we need as to what the fire is expected to accomplish?

Matthew 10:28 KJV
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 3:10-12 KJV
(10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Besides that, if you have enemies, and you reconciled them to yourself so that they are no longer enemies, have you not destroyed your enemies?

No, if your enemies are reconciled, there is rejoicing over even one sinner that is saved, but in that case they are redeemed, not destroyed.

Is this not what God has done in Christ? Does the Blood of Christ not justify all men to life? There is not one person who is the enemy of God except through the alienation of one's mind. Jesus is the Savior of all men, not just some.

Jesus is the savior of all men, but not all men will accept that savior. Unless we repent, we shall likewise perish. Perish is not a word that means to live forever. When Jesus says "ye shall likewise perish" he certainly cannot mean that we will all die once, as this happens regardless of repentance. The death he speaks of is not the first, but of the second.

Luke 13:1-5 KJV
(1) There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
(2) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(4) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
(5) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

These are the words of that Savior, and he is saying that the prospect of eternal life is conditional. That condition is repentance.

 

[Rosenritter]

You do not seem to grasp the whole picture. The lake of fire is a place of divine purification. Those on the outside of New Jerusalem are merely labeled as dogs, whoremongers, sorcerers, etc. because they had died without being preserved by the Holy Spirit; and thus, never obtained the inheritance that comes with being identified in Christ. In other words, the sin they were identified with when they had died becomes their nickname. like this:

Though Fred is justified to God and reconciled to life, because he did not acknowledge Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and he died practicing sorcery, he is known as Fred the sorcerer and cannot enter New Jerusalem because he has no inheritance therein. Remember, the good and bad are both judged by their works at the judgement.

Because Jane, Fred's friend, acknowledged Jesus as her Lord and Savior, and her life was filled with the fruit of the spirit to prove it, she obtained the inheritance of New Jerusalem and has a dwelling place therein. She can go out and visit Fred any time she wishes, but Fred is forever separated from the direct glory of the presence of God who resides within New Jerusalem.

How is that compatible with statements like these? It seems pretty emphatic that the destruction by fire is, in fact, utter destruction by fire, leaving nothing that can be restored or that remains of the original. Stubble is not known for its asbestos qualities.

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Rosenritter]

This hypothetical you; they believe the Gospel, that He is risen, Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV?

Assuming so, what could we do, that's moral, about this problem?

Are there any examples from Sacred Scripture that might inform us?

This hypothetical me may believe that He is risen, and has participated in all the outward sacraments of the Roman Church. This hypothetical me, however, remains hardened in heart towards my neighbor, and in his heart will not forgive offenses, whether real or imagined, although he does claim that his sins are forgiven through Christ's blood and obedience.

Matthew 6:12-14 KJV
(12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 18:32-35 KJV
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

1 John 4:20-21 KJV
(20) If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Please fill in the gaps as you understand them. I understand scripture differently at this point in our discussion, and the scripture that comes to mind tells me that forgiveness of sins is only applicable to those that are also willing to forgive others, and that even divine forgiveness, once granted, has the potential to be revoked.

 

[lifeisgood]

I called you ignorant for the assumptions you made about my faith in GOD.

And then you say how dare I use certain words. You should follow your own example.

You assume things about my faith exactly as I assume things about your faith, by what is written.

I'm glad you have finally changed your tune

I have made no such leap. Such assumption is only in your imagination.

and agreed that faith without works is dead,

TO BE SAVED?

and that we must follow the direction and inclination of the Holy Spirit.

Something I have ALWAYS said. Therefore, YOUR assumption that your opinion has changed my mind is greatly exaggerated in your imagination.

Progress

In your imagination.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And then you say how dare I use certain words. You should follow your own example.

You assume things about my faith exactly as I assume things about your faith, by what is written.



I have made no such leap. Such assumption is only in your imagination.



TO BE SAVED?



Something I have ALWAYS said. Therefore, YOUR assumption that your opinion has changed my mind is greatly exaggerated in your imagination.



In your imagination.

What did I assume about your faith?

I tried to let go of what your assumption and derogatory remarks in regards to my reception of faith and the origins there of. I called you ignorant as opposed to a knowing liar.

You yourself contradict yourself with every post it seems.

Either faith alone is dead or not.

Either works to the glorying of GOD are a product of effectual faith or not.


Either you believe the teachings and example of the Christ of GOD or not; you claim you don't because it isn't needed because all one must do is believe; but to believe is to act according to said belief.

You claim to be dead, but are in no way dead to the sins of the flesh that you not only openly commit, but have no remorse or sorrow or shame or conviction of the conscience when you sin knowingly; to those who know, that's called a seared conscience, but to you it is called being safe.

Let's just wait and see since you don't want to have an actual conversation on the matter.




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[lifeisgood]

What did I assume about your faith?

Part of what you said:

I'm glad you have finally changed your tune...

I have not changed my 'tune' as you put it.

I tried to let go of what your assumption and derogatory remarks in regards to my reception of faith and the origins there of. I called you ignorant as opposed to a knowing liar.

Man, you have a spirit of persecution also? When did I make derogatory remarks about your faith?

You yourself contradict yourself with every post it seems.

Nah, I think you have a reading comprehension problem.

Either faith alone is dead or not.

TO BE SAVED?

Either works to the glorying of GOD are a product of effectual faith or not.

TO BE SAVED?

Either you believe the teachings and example of the Christ of GOD or not; you claim you don't because it isn't needed because all one must do is believe; but to believe is to act according to said belief.

How much of your work, obedience, good deeds, etc. did you bring TO BE SAVED?

How much did you help Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary TO BE SAVED?

You claim to be dead,

If you are in Christ, you are already dead.

but are in no way dead to the sins of the flesh that you not only openly commit,

Do you have proof of what you are accusing me of?

but have no remorse or sorrow or shame or conviction of the conscience when you sin knowingly;

Are you sure of what you are accusing me of?

to those who know, that's called a seared conscience, but to you it is called being safe.

So, now you are God and 'you know'. What do 'you know' about someone you have NEVER met?

Let's just wait and see since you don't want to have an actual conversation on the matter.

You've got to be kidding.

You want to have a conversation about your sins of the flesh you commit openly?

I do not want to know your sins of the flesh you commit openly. That is between you and God and not between you and my person.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Part of what you said:


I have not changed my 'tune' as you put it.



Man, you have a spirit of persecution also? When did I make derogatory remarks about your faith?



Nah, I think you have a reading comprehension problem.



TO BE SAVED?



TO BE SAVED?



How much of your work, obedience, good deeds, etc. did you bring TO BE SAVED?

How much did you help Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary TO BE SAVED?



If you are in Christ, you are already dead.



Do you have proof of what you are accusing me of?



Are you sure of what you are accusing me of?



So, now you are God and 'you know'. What do 'you know' about someone you have NEVER met?



You've got to be kidding.

You want to have a conversation about your sins of the flesh you commit openly?

I do not want to know your sins of the flesh you commit openly. That is between you and God and not between you and my person.

What part of what I said assumed something about your faith, or rather, the origin of your faith?

You did change your tune. You've been saying this whole time that faith and belief are ineffectual. No! Don't claim poor reading comprehension on my part because you're having trouble understanding.
If you think one doesn't do anything in response to the free gift of faith then you think faith is ineffectual.
If you think belief is simply telling others you believe, as opposed to living in belief as if it is actually true, then you're telling others belief is equal to what they were before their belief and the free gift of faith IN GOD.

What did you say about my faith? The part where you said it wasn't from the Holy Spirit; or the part where you equated it's effects similar to the actions of a pagan?

I don't have a reading comprehension problem. Stop projecting your shortcomings onto others.

You claim I have a reading comprehension problem. You also claim the Christ of GOD didn't preach for any reason whatsoever evidently, as you claim the teachings are of no significance and not to be adhered to by the believer. You not believing the words of the Son of GOD, yet constantly gravitating towards the "death" of GOD isn't worrisome to you? Oh...thats right; no conscience.

I've never heard of the foundation being too the finished product, but the structure to be built upon. To you though, the foundation is the finished product. It really is sad. Do you think He sacrificed Himself for your sake, just so you can act upon your every desire, yet act not upon what you believe (know). Belief is knowledge in case you were wondering. To do nothing with that knowledge upon reception is chaos and indifference. I would ask you to reference Jesus's words in scripture supporting your false claim and broken, fake belief; but it would be an exercise in futility as one who thinks so little of His words wouldnt have a clue about them most likely.

How much did I bring to be saved? What did I do? Trick questions. Any proclaiming osas as complete truth is lying to themselves. It isn't about what one brings to a thing they are unaware is going to happen; it is what they do with the foundation their beliefs are set up on. How is a foundation and material a completed house?

How does actual belief (knowledge) allow one to remain in the dark?

To believe is to live according to said belief as if it is true. Unless you don't beleive it to be true.

Everyone works at all times at something. It is either good or bad. Actual faith in GOD grows, and with said growth it does produce good fruit (works). If it doesn't produce, or produces bad fruit (works) then it isn't really faith, and will never lead to faithfulness to the bridegroom. But please; do show me faith without works, and while your at it, show me how faith isn't effectual to the believer and that the eternal GOD died so you can promote all evil, while playing dumb.

I did nothing to help Christ as I knew him not. What is your excuse? Did the Holy Spirit imform you to preach against the teachings of the Christ?

If you were dead to sin then you wouldn't sin, not just ignore it when you do. If you had died in Christ then you would be new, now, at this time; and assuredly not speaking the gross insidious lies you do. What lie you ask? That faith is ineffectual and belief is indifference mixed with lip service.

Do I have proof of your seared conscience; you give more with each response.

I will NEVER equate myself to more than nothing but what GOD has provided.

When did I say I was GOD....oh, that's right; projection and lack of reading comprehension; I wasn't even talking about you when i said "I know".

Yes, that is exactly what I said; you read really, really well.

In case you missed it due to lack of comprehension; that was an attempt at sarcasm.


Your person; equating GOD to just another person again I see. Wait, sorry; three people....but I'm the pagan.....please...

Now.... I'm done with this little game. I gave you ample chance to avoid this wholly, but you refused.

Your words are a waste of my time, and my words back to you, you have made up your mind not to hear. It wasn't my intent to drag this out, but to avoid it. I will attempt to avoid it again. But it may be dependent upon your words and actions as well, as difficult a concept that may be for you to grasp.





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[marhig]

I see what you mean when you speak of Jesus being dead to sin; however, I do not think it is correct to say Jesus was dead, because that is what Jesus said about those who were not alive with truth.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."


Do you see what I mean?

We die to the sins of the world but we are alive because we live our new life in Christ.


Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

GT, you've got me wrong, when I said that Jesus was dead, I don't mean spiritually, I mean to his flesh and the world. Because he didn't sin, not once, and this world had nothing in him, so he was dead to it. And baptised by the Holy Spirit unto death. Meaning, once we are born of God and walk in the Spirit, then we become alive in God and start to die to self, and or old ways should be dead to us.

Thus we are buried with him (our fleshly life gone) through baptism (of the Spirit) and we are then raised with Christ by the power of the Spirit, and born of God. We then enter into a new life, into a new and living way in God walking in the Spirit and this world should mean nothing to us, just as it meant nothing to Jesus, it was the people he cared for not the things of this world, and those who belong to him and live through him, should love one another, and have the same heart towards God and others as he has.

The dead burying the dead is being dead to God, and it isn't the same dead as I'm talking about regarding Jesus, he was dead to this world and the lusts and desires that come with it.

 

[marhig]

Jesus shed his blood---on the cross.

He is the Lamb of God. The lambs blood was shed in the Old Testament, and it was a shadow of Christ, of what Jesus would do for us. Jesus' blood was literally shed for our sins.



Yes, because God the Father says so.



Then you are saying Jesus didn't need to die on the cross.

Doesn't all those scriptures I gave you about the Lamb being sacrificed mean anything to you?

I never once said that Jesus didn't have to go through the cross, I know he had to bare and overcome whatever we set before him. What I believe is that we are not saved by the death of Jesus but by his life, through him, by the grace of God through faith.

And to me, Christ Jesus came as a living sacrifice not a dead one!

 

[God's Truth]

GT, you've got me wrong, when I said that Jesus was dead, I don't mean spiritually, I mean to his flesh and the world. Because he didn't sin, not once, and this world had nothing in him, so he was dead to it. And baptised by the Holy Spirit unto death. Meaning, once we are born of God and walk in the Spirit, then we become alive in God and start to die to self, and or old ways should be dead to us.

Thus we are buried with him (our fleshly life gone) through baptism (of the Spirit) and we are then raised with Christ by the power of the Spirit, and born of God. We then enter into a new life, into a new and living way in God walking in the Spirit and this world should mean nothing to us, just as it meant nothing to Jesus, it was the people he cared for not the things of this world, and those who belong to him and live through him, should love one another, and have the same heart towards God and others as he has.

The dead burying the dead is being dead to God, and it isn't the same dead as I'm talking about regarding Jesus, he was dead to this world and the lusts and desires that come with it.

No, Jesus' flesh was a living sacrifice, just as our bodies are to be.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

Romans 6:13
Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:20
you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

 

[marhig]

Jesus was not dead before he went on the cross.

He was alive and he was a LIVING SACRIFICE.

We too are supposed to offer our bodies as living sacrifices.

How do we do that?

BY NOT SINNING with our bodies!

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

I agree with that, but Jesus was dead before he went on the cross, and what I mean by that is, dead to this world and flesh. He was a living sacrifice and he sacrificed his life to do the will of God.

 

[marhig]

No, Jesus' flesh was a living sacrifice, just as our bodies are to be.

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship.

Romans 6:13
Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an acceptable offering to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:20
you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

That's what I'm talking about, he was a living sacrifice, dead to his flesh and alive in God.

What do you believe that a living sacrifice is?

 

[marhig]

Perfect example of a rejecter of Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary as the ONLY way to be saved.

A rejector of Christ I'm not, the rest of what you say isn't biblical. I've never read anywhere that says anything about the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary is the only way to be saved!

What I have read is that we are saved through our Lord Jesus Christ, by the grace of God through faith.

 

[God's Truth]

That's what I'm talking about, he was a living sacrifice, dead to his flesh and alive in God.

What do you believe that a living sacrifice is?

He was not dead in his flesh. He was a living sacrifice which means he did good with his flesh.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree with that, but Jesus was dead before he went on the cross, and what I mean by that is, dead to this world and flesh. He was a living sacrifice and he sacrificed his life to do the will of God.

Jesus was not dead before going to the cross.

 

[marhig]

Hebrews 9:22

You say Hebrews 9:22 is this

Wrong. No death, no remission of sin.

But this is what it actually says

Hebrews 9:22

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

I believe in the shedding of the blood, but I don't believe that it has anything to do with Jesus saving us by being scourged and crucified! Salvation is through Christ, through faith, by the grace of God.

Romans 9

Quote: His DEATH saves anyone who calls upon His name

You say it says this(above} in Romans 9, where? Which verse do you mean? Thanks

Matt 16:21 “From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”

yes that all true, but death doesn't save you, his life does

ALL dependent on Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary.



ALL because of Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary.


Now, you can reject Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary as the only way to be saved.

None of this is biblical, and Jesus had finished the work that the father had given him to do, before he went to the cross.

 

[marhig]

He was not dead in his flesh. He was a living sacrifice which means he did good with the flesh.

Can't you see what I mean? I didn't say dead in his flesh, I said dead to his flesh. That's totally different!

And I said that wrong anyway, I don't mean his flesh, I mean the flesh. Because Jesus wasn't of the flesh in any way whatsoever! He was completely dead to all the lusts if it!

 

[marhig]

Jesus was not dead before going to the cross.

So was he living his life lusting after his flesh then?

Or was he dead to this world and the flesh?

 

[popsthebuilder]

So was he living his life lusting after his flesh then?

Or was he dead to this world and the flesh?

The two of you are saying the same thing.

His very nature was sinless and did not require Him to be symbolically dead to His flesh as His own desire (even of his flesh was the desire of GOD.



can we please not bicker over such minute discrepancies?

please?

Can none see that our division is our falling?


peace

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