The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

No it isn't. It's the RESURRECTION that is Christianity. The Bible says so. It says exactly what the Christian faith is worth if the Lord Jesus didn't rise from the dead, and meanwhile, it says nowhere what would happen if the Trinity is incorrect.

1 Corinthians 15 being specifically one of the places where it says so.

 

[Rosenritter]

If Catholics are right, then the Trinity question is answered. It's not even within the realm of reasonable doubt, if Catholics are right. Protestants still have to "prove from the Bible" everything. So if Protestants are right, over Catholics, then that's only step one completed. Protestants still have to make their case, biblically. Over and over and over again. If Catholics are right, this Trinity discussion/debate/argument is over.

Unfortunately, a being right because "the Pope says so" is the type of "right" that we'd be talking about.

 

[popsthebuilder]

To think I almost missed this winner. :rotfl:


Thank you for making it clear that you are one of the false brethren here on TOL. I can't say I am surprised.

False brothren is synonymous with lost sheep, whom you as a Christian are to help. So help me by proving your claims.

Show how i am a false brethren with scripture against my own words.





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[Rosenritter]

The Trinity dictates that Jesus is God, and not a suboordinate like you heretical retards perpetuate. Tired of hearing it- go listen to the real Gospel and maybe you'll know about the ~Resurrection~

The bible also dictates that Jesus is God without feeling a need to declare or define a Trinity doctrine.

 

[God's Truth]

GT feels it is "insulting" her when I say that her accusative and insulting approach isn't helping her make any points. You're even a bit more coarse than GT in that regard. You're easier to read, but more crass.

Here comes the judge and false accuser. How about keep your opinions about me to yourself?

 

[Rosenritter]

Obviously it doesn't bother you that all Christianity, from ancient Greek to Roman, from Catholic to Protestant all through history have ALL held to the Trinity_

So why is it that Tertullian, the generally accepted founder of "Trinity" is on record attacking other Christians for their views of Jesus as God being outside his "Trinity" idea?

 

[God's Truth]

Can you show me where Paul preached God the son?

Jesus is God come in the flesh as a Son.

The scriptures teach that.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I don't think this is applicable. It sounds similar to a Unitarian argument I heard that goes something like "God cannot be tempted, Jesus was tempted, therefore he was not God." Their passage that says "God cannot be tempted" comes from James 1:13

James 1:13 KJV
(13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Yet we have a passage that tells us that God can be tempted in Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 6:16 KJV
(16) Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Rather than an absurd scenario where someone can un-God God by saying "I shall now tempt you with something really evil!" I think it is more accurate to say that God cannot be successfully tempted with evil, because such temptations are not truly tempting.


How does this apply to your passage in Numbers above? We also have passages saying the Lord repented. Genesis 6:6, Exodus 34:14, Judges 2:18, etc. Was this the way you were headed? I'm not sure, but that set behind us, considering:



The title Son of Man as Jesus used it seems to emphasize that he was born as a man, yet he uses the title in conjunction with ways that lead to him also being the One God. I think it is obvious that Jesus in the flesh wasn't the literal fullness of God in power, but I don't think that's what the title "Son of Man" meant, nor that it was related to Numbers 23:19.

You don't thinkit is applicable because it shows that GOD is eternal spirit and as such not synonymous with creation?

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[patrick jane]

You don't thinkit is applicable because it shows that GOD is eternal spirit and as such not synonymous with creation?

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Poor pops

 

[Rosenritter]

I highly doubt that you are too stupid to understand what I have written. In any case, whether you simply did not wish to actually read it, you were too tired, or you are somehow being intellectually dishonest (something else I highly doubt after previous conversations), I will shorten it for you.

No, not stupid. No, not refusing to read. Yes, actually tired and literally sick. But aside from that, I was actually losing track of your point.

What I am saying is that, no matter what context you look at, the meaning of the passage remains the same: It is impossible to recrucify Christ and start over as if nothing happened.

That makes sense.

In other words, it may be possible to lose your relationship with God by going back to living like the world, but it is impossible to lose your salvation:

That's the part that doesn't make sense. Salvation is a thing not yet received, which is why we are given the Holy Spirit in earnest until that time. If one rejects that Holy Spirit, knowing full well what it means and entails, how is there going back? Salvation isn't actually received until it is given, at the resurrection and atonement. We speak of it in the present tense because it is as good as its guarantor, but it goes without saying that we can break our part of the covenant.

therefore, those who have turned back to the world cannot turn back to God in the same way as when they first acknowledged Christ as Savior, for it is impossible to start over as if nothing has happened. No matter the context, no matter the version of the Bible you look at, it was written to believers (specifically Jewish) to encourage them to continue in spiritual maturity, and to give them hope and security in the finished work of Christ. I hope this clears up what I am saying.

It still doesn't look to me as if it is saying it is possible to turn back after that point. It speaks of the alternative being burning.

As I said previously, the falling away part (no matter which version you choose) does not change the overall meaning of the passage: and actually, as much as I dislike the Message, It conveys the actual meaning of the passage the best. Give that one a look.

I had looked at Message in one of those 18. I dislike it also, but for sake of discussion...

Hebrews 6:4-9 MSG
(4) Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the Holy Spirit,
(5) once they've personally experienced the sheer goodness of God's Word and the powers breaking in on us--
(6) if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can't start over as if nothing happened. That's impossible. Why, they've re-crucified Jesus! They've repudiated him in public!
(7) Parched ground that soaks up the rain and then produces an abundance of carrots and corn for its gardener gets God's "Well done!"
(8) But if it produces weeds and thistles, it's more likely to get cussed out. Fields like that are burned, not harvested.
(9) I'm sure that won't happen to you, friends. I have better things in mind for you--salvation things!

 

[Rosenritter]

You don't thinkit is applicable because it shows that GOD is eternal spirit and as such not synonymous with creation?

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No, I don't think it is applicable because "son of man" is used in a different sense between Old and New Testaments. It's not being used as a title in the passage in Numbers.

 

[7Spirits]

So you really think the deciding factor to all souls spending eternity in torture beyond imagination is based on if they "believe" Jesus of Nazareth was the eternal GOD in the flesh who killed himself as a payment for himself so you could continue in knowing sin?

It has nothing to do with ones actions, motives, intent, or deed? Just believe Jesus is the eternal GOD even though He expressly said otherwise.

Yeah, you're right on track.

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This is my vindication and that [MENTION=14521]God's Truth[/MENTION] liked it should make much clear. You have just called Christ's sacrifice (Self Righteous Suicide)

Yes, I rebuke you for spitting on Jesus! You have turned the free grace of God into a licence to sin.

That is what grace is to you. It isn't forgiveness for your life debt of sin, it is an okay for sinners to sin. You define it as such and now have those verses aligned against you.

I retain that you are a deceiver and see that you are wicked in expressing what God did for us. You should be reported for this post, but it is the reveal of your hearts wicked thoughts and your unmasking is sufficient.

 

[marhig]

Jesus is God come in the flesh as a Son.

The scriptures teach that.

No the father, who is God came in Christ Jesus.

John 14

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And the father is not the son. The father is in the son.

And once we are born of God, then the father through Christ by the Spirit is in us too and we too should be carrying out the works that the father does in us through Christ, because as the Spirit works within and changes our heart, we should be listening to him and obeying the word of God within and showing those works outwardly we should be dead to our old life and walking in the newness of life through Christ by the Spirit, and truly following Jesus.

There is also this verse to show that it's God in Christ, not that Christ is God

2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[7Spirits]

No the father, who is God came in Christ Jesus.

John 14

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And the father is not the son. The father is in the son.

And once we are born of God, then the father through Christ by the Spirit is in us too and we too should be carrying out the works that the father does in us through Christ, because as the Spirit works within and changes our heart, we should be listening to him and obeying the word of God within and showing those works outwardly we should be dead to our old life and walking in the newness of life through Christ by the Spirit, and truly following Jesus.

There is also this verse to show that it's God in Christ, not that Christ is God

2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Blah, Blah, Blah

You pretend to speak grace, but works and denial that God was Manifested in flesh and remains resurrected in our flesh is your core message.

Even demons can wax eloquent, but you are a parrot that would speak books to be heard, but the lies within your message are Spiritually fatal.

 

[God's Truth]

Blah, Blah, Blah

You pretend to speak grace, but works and denial that God was Manifested in flesh and remains resurrected in our flesh is your core message.

Even demons can wax eloquent, but you are a parrot that would speek books to be heard, but the lies within your message are Spiritually fatal.

Even demons believe there is one God, then do something, they shudder.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

 

[7Spirits]

Even demons believe there is one God, then do something, they shudder.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

Those two verses aren't placed together for your context. They stand together in testimony against you. James says that God favors no one and to judge a man by his flesh is wicked. It's you that judge if others obey or not while you fill you fat self righteousness with pride and boast of your obedience.

Is Jesus' death, Burial and resurrection enough to pay for a sinners entire debt of sin, if one believes that it is?

 

[Lon]

God tells us to pray in private and you change what He says.

:doh: Do you even READ the bible??? Matthew 6:5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward.

You tell us simply to 'pray in private' but that wasn't the message. You should listen to Him instead of ALWAYS running away from His Words half-loaded, half-cocked. You make your own messes on TOL. I'm not the only one who has brought this clearly to your attention. Teaching is a gift, it requires reading His Word and Memorizing it, THEN being pedantic (saying scripture as clear and word for word as possible). Then, being able to help another actually understand what it says instead of your knee-jerk grade school reactions. You are no-wise any of this, GT, and frankly, it shows. -Lon

 

[God's Truth]

No the father, who is God came in Christ Jesus.

John 14

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

And the father is not the son. The father is in the son.

And once we are born of God, then the father through Christ by the Spirit

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Jesus himself lives in the saved.

How do you get that Jesus himself lives in us if he is not God?

is in us too and we too should be carrying out the works that the father does in us through Christ, because as the Spirit works within and changes our heart, we should be listening to him and obeying the word of God within and showing those works outwardly we should be dead to our old life and walking in the newness of life through Christ by the Spirit, and truly following Jesus.

So are you saying there is no difference between Christ and us?

There is also this verse to show that it's God in Christ, not that Christ is God

2 Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

That scripture does not say Christ is not God.

There are many scriptures that tell us that Christ is God.

As I have shown you, the Lord is the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

So you really think the deciding factor to all souls spending eternity in torture beyond imagination is based on if they "believe" Jesus of Nazareth was the eternal GOD in the flesh who killed himself as a payment for himself so you could continue in knowing sin?

Spoken exactly as a natural man without any spiritual understanding.

1. Jesus didn't "kill himself", He laid down his life and He took it up again. John 10:18

2. Acknowledging Jesus is the Lord God "manifest in the flesh" is what it means to "confess Him" as Lord. 1 Timothy 3:16

3. The fact that believers have been DELIVERED FROM THE LAW makes your statement about knowingly "sinning" a moot point....one the accuser of the brethren is known for. That you make it, is quite telling. Romans 7:6

It has nothing to do with ones actions, motives, intent, or deed? Just believe Jesus is the eternal GOD even though He expressly said otherwise.

He did NOT expressly say otherwise. And the fact that boasting is EXCLUDED by the Law of Faith is so that in the ages to come, all the glory will go to our Lord God and His great mercy and grace. Eph. 2:7-8. It's why salvation is a GIFT, and all your claims it can be earned is a lie right out of the pits of hell.

In fact, it's antichrist to deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. As John tells us in his gospel, In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD. John 1:1 Those who deny that are ANTICHRIST.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

This is the Lord God Almighty talking. "They shall look upon ME whom they have pierced", and you dare to say He did not come in the flesh. :nono:

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The bible also dictates that Jesus is God without feeling a need to declare or define a Trinity doctrine.

Yes but a Trinitarian believes all sorts of things about a trinity which are not biblical.

For starters they say Jesus was alive in his entire person with God before He was born, and that He is also the creator.

LA