The Trinity

The Trinity


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keypurr

New member
You can't be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity- as it is the Godhead of Christianity.
There's no debating it- take notice to the other things non-trinitarian churches teach. They are heretical and at best teach a cheap version of Christianity.

There's Islam if you think Jesus is just a glorified subordinate of God :idunno:
You can't have it both ways though, that does not suffice.


The Apostles were not Trinity belivers. Your church has added many things to what the first church believed in.
 

keypurr

New member
This is really an easy exercise.

These scriptures (Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Philippians 2:6), prima facie, seem to indicate that Jesus is our Maker in the flesh.

That's an interesting idea. Is there any other reason to believe that these scriptures mean what they fairly clearly seem to mean? Or, conversely, is there a compelling reason to think that this prima facie interpretation is incorrect?

As to the latter, we have you, some random anonymous person on the internet who identifies as a JW, which is a still-wet-behind-the-ears new Christian ecclesial community, saying that what it sure looks like Colossians 1:19, 2:9, and Philippians 2:6 is saying, is not what it is saying.

And as to the former we have undisputed secular Church history which shows that the Church has believed and taught from the earliest that our Maker became flesh.


Where is the name Jesus in those verses?
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Where is the name Jesus in those verses?
I don't know. :idunno: Matthew 1:23?
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.​
 
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Selaphiel

New member
The doctrine comes from paganism and an unconscionable twisting of the scriptures.

That is such a tired old cliché, and can only really be put forward by someone who literally has no idea what they are talking about.

The Capadoccian fathers argued against a pagan conception of the relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit, not for it. It was Arius and the other non-trinitarians that argued from pagan theological principles. They argued that the Son was a lesser divine being, that is paganism because it assumes the Greek conception of divinity as a matter of gradualism, you can be more or less divine, and the lesser divine entities mediate the higher divine realities all the way up to the One. Thus they thought that the Son was a lesser mediating divinity than the Father who was the One.

The Capadoccian fathers of the orthodox position went against this, arguing from a different conception of God, namely the Jewish one. That is that there is only a binary distinction, not a gradual one, there is Creator and there are created beings. Only the Creator is divine, created beings are not and worship of one is idolatry. They then noticed that the church since its conception worshiped Jesus, sang hymns and prayed to Him as well as uttering doxologies to him. Either the Son was divine and thus on the side of Creator, or Christianity is idolatry.

It is Arianism and non-trinitarian Christianity that is pagan unless they postulate that the Son is only human, a position that is rather impossible to hold unless you throw out pretty much all praise of Jesus from the New Testament. It is they who postulate that he is some lesser mediating divinity, and that surely is a pagan concept. It is they who then according to their own doctrines worship a created being and sing doxologies to a created being rather than to whom they would be due.
 

Crucible

BANNED
I think people oppose the Trinity out of simple rebellion. There's no other reason for these shenanigans, as they don't have any other theology or doctrine that amasses to much of anything. It's an utterly vain opposition :rolleyes:
 

Ben Masada

New member
I think people oppose the Trinity out of simple rebellion. There's no other reason for these shenanigans, as they don't have any other theology or doctrine that amasses to much of anything. It's an utterly vain opposition.

I can't agree with you. We oppose the Trinity out of Logic, not as a result of rebellion. For you to think that there is no other reason, you might need to think it again. Here is the Jewish reason why we oppose the Trinity out of Logic.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
 

Apple7

New member
Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Quoting Isaiah will only promote The Trinity, brother.

Isa 48.16 and 61.1 -2 are prophecies which have Yahweh The Son stating that Yahweh The Father would send Him to be The Messiah, and that Yahweh The Father would send Yahweh The Spirit with The Messiah.

Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit are sent out together, and they are sent out singly, frequently, (Isa 11.2; 34.16; 40.13; 42.01; 48.12 - 16; 59.20 - 21; 61.1 - 2; 63.10 - 14).

A few verses after Isa 61.1 - 2, the Servant of Yahweh calls Himself Yahweh…. ‘for I, Yahweh, love justice…’ Isa 61.8.

When Jesus stood up to read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue, He quoted Isa 61.1 - 2, as recorded in Luke 4.18 - 19, strongly suggesting that He is the same person as the ‘sent Yahweh’ who spoke in Isa 48.16 and Isa 61.8.
 

Crucible

BANNED
I can't agree with you. We oppose the Trinity out of Logic

No you don't. You oppose the Trinity out of purely laymen stubbornness- you all don't have clue about metaphysics. If you were really 'logical', you would understand certain paradoxes such as God not being able to realize His own existence without something to acknowledge Himself.

The Bible disagrees with you as well. The early Christians even, before the canon was even put together, recognized Jesus as God. You can't say 'only God judges; only God forgives' and then just lay it on a being who isn't God.

So you all can just go on with all that supposed logic and standing :rolleyes:
 
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Lon

Active member
John 1:1 does not say that Jesus is God, because "the word was god" does not have an article" the way "and the word was with the god" does. Page 113. In black and white!
RIght, so you can't put one in, when doing a word for word translation. "a" would be a paraphrase of the actual. It is just "God."

If he is saying something else now, he has reverted back to the dark ages. I call that a major job of WAFFLING! Shame on him. No backbone. He said, "what one does find in the phrase 'the only-begotten Son' is a phrase that affirms Christ's unique divine character, without stating that he is the one and only God himself (which not even verse 1 asserts, because 'god' lacks the article)." BOOM. BANG. BAM. OWNED. GO LOOK IT UP IN HIS BOOK! I gave you the page number.

Show me: ᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Very simply, John says that "the" Word was with "the" God. The second line, then must, necessarily also be the Word and the God because no new character is introduced. John ever only talks about just these two (one).

Why "two/one?" Because John introduces 'with' and 'was.' There is no other way to read this verse. Everything else is an ignorant Arian fantasy. No question.
 

iamaberean

New member
Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. A soul is both body and spirit. If God is not a person, then He does not exist.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


 

Nihilo

BANNED
an ignorant Arian fantasy
Correct, in two ways. One, their reading is wrong, as you once again definitively show. And two, they're "ignorant Arians," because they would be declared heretical by the actual historical Arians, since they hold to an even more muted view of our Lord than did the original Arians.

The genuine original Arians would call today's "ignorant Arians" non-Christian.
 
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genuineoriginal

New member
I think people oppose the Trinity out of simple rebellion. There's no other reason for these shenanigans, as they don't have any other theology or doctrine that amasses to much of anything. It's an utterly vain opposition :rolleyes:
Most people that oppose the Trinity doctrine do it because the Bible does not teach the Trinity doctrine.
 

Bright Raven

New member
I would say that it is because the Doctrine is not specifically stated. It is taught in many places; Matthew 28:19-20, John 1:1, 14, Colossians 1:15-20, 1 John 1:1-2, 1 John 5:7
 

Bright Raven

New member
Two verses that mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not enough to claim that the Bible teaches the Trinity doctrine.

Those verses do not teach a Trinity (defined as three gods in one god)
Why are the verses there. The answer to your second little quip is "Hear o Israel, the Lord our God is one God. Your humor borders on the heretical.
 
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