The Trinity

The Trinity


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patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
With all respect, elder brother, I got to ask you something here.

I don't know exactly what gospel G.O. believed but let's assume for argument's sake that it's the Gospel of the grace of God, the power of God unto salvation. That would mean G.O. very much IS saved, despite a head full of bad doctrinal wiring.

But just lately, on another thread, you said there's no way to know David Bowie is NOT with the Lord, even though (afaik) he never once made any indication of having believed, or even heard, the saving Gospel.

So which is it? Bad doctrine proves damnation, but a profession-less life of debauchery does not?

This is asked with love and desire for clarity in all things. If I've misunderstood you, I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

Does anybody know that David Bowie did NOT repent and also never believed the saving gospel ? How do we know what he believed privately ? never mind I figured out what afaik means. You don't know.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Are you trying to be tricky there?
Not at all.

The scripture does not teach that anyone needs to believe God is a Trinity in order to be saved, nor does the scripture teach that God is a Trinity.

It took 300 years after Crist was crucified for man to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.
The doctrine of the Trinity has been debated for 1700 years simply because it is not taught by scripture.
Oh, by the way...
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History of Trinitarian Doctrines

This supplementary document discusses the history of Trinity theories. Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as explained at the top of the main entry until around the end of the so-called Arian Controversy. (See 3.2 below and section 3.1 of the supplementary document on unitarianism.) Nonetheless, proponents of such theories always claim them to be in some sense founded on, or at least illustrated by, biblical texts.
. . .
those developing the doctrine saw themselves as trying to build a systematic Christian theology on the Bible while remaining faithful to earlier post-biblical tradition. Many also had the aim of showing Christianity to be consistent with the best of Greek philosophy. But even if the doctrine had a non-Christian origin, it would would not follow that it is false or unjustified; it could be, that through Philo (or whomever), God revealed the doctrine to the Christian church. Still, it is contested issue whether or not the doctrine can be deduced or otherwise inferred from the Christian Bible, so we must turn to it.
. . .
No trinitarian doctrine is explicitly taught in the Old Testament. Sophisticated trinitarians grant this, holding that the doctrine was revealed by God only later, in New Testament times (c.50–c.100) and/or in the Patristic era (c. 100–800). They usually also add, though, that with hindsight, we can see that a number of texts either portray or forshadow the co-working of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
. . .
The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrine. However, many Christian theologians, apologists, and philosophers hold that the doctrine can be inferred from what the New Testament does teach about God. But how may it be inferred? Is the inference deductive, or is it an inference to the best explanation? And is it based on what is implicitly taught there, or on what is merely assumed there? Many Christian theologians and apologists seem to hold it is a deductive inference.
. . .
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musterion

Well-known member
The scripture does not teach that anyone needs to believe God is a Trinity in order to be saved, nor does the scripture teach that God is a Trinity.

Then refute the logic demonstrated in the graphic. If its faulty, you should be able to demonstrate it easily.

Many Christian theologians and apologists seem to hold it is a deductive inference.

I think it's more inductive but the reasoning is there, as the graphic shows.

Cut and paste? Sigh. I wanted YOUR response on the challenge. May we see it?
 

musterion

Well-known member
The difference between the two kinds of arguments does not lie solely in the words used; it comes from the relationship the author or expositor of the argument takes there to be between the premises and the conclusion. If the author of the argument believes that the truth of the premises definitely establishes the truth of the conclusion (due to definition, logical entailment, logical structure, or mathematical necessity), then the argument is deductive. If the author of the argument does not think that the truth of the premises definitely establishes the truth of the conclusion, but nonetheless believes that their truth provides good reason to believe the conclusion true, then the argument is inductive.

Yeah, inductive I think, because as you correctly point out, there is no single verse that says God is a trinity. However, the scriptural evidence taken in total points in that direction.

You're welcome to disprove it if you like.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Then refute the logic demonstrated in the graphic. If its faulty, you should be able to demonstrate it easily.

I think it's more inductive but the reasoning is there, as the graphic shows.

Cut and paste? Sigh. I wanted YOUR response on the challenge. May we see it?
What is the purpose of your challenge?

Is it to show that the scriptures teach the doctrine of the Trinity?

If so, it completely failed, since it proved that the Trinity doctrine comes from deductive reasoning.

Is it to show that some verses of the Bible combined with logic can be used to get people to agree with the doctrine of the Trinity?

If so, then it also failed, since my position on the matter is not whether I personally believe or disbelieve the doctrine, merely whether the doctrine is taught by scripture (it is not) and whether it is necessary to believe the Trinity doctrine in order to be saved (it is not).

What do you think you gain by belief in the Trinity doctrine?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Yeah, inductive I think, because as you correctly point out, there is no single verse that says God is a trinity. However, the scriptural evidence taken in total points in that direction.

You're welcome to disprove it if you like.
I would disagree with you about whether scriptural evidence taken in total points to the Trinity doctrine.

The overwhelming majority of scripture taken at face value supports a Unitarian view of God the Father being the only true god who sent His Son to die for our sins.

Support for the Trinity doctrine comes almost exclusively from about three dozen passage in scripture and from deductive reasoning.

Inductive reasoning is probably what started the Binity doctrine when some Christians found it impossible to believe that Jesus could do the things He does without being God Himself.

Adding the Holy Spirit to the Binity doctrine to make it a Trinity doctrine comes entirely from deductive reasoning.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Inductive reasoning is probably what started the Binity doctrine when some Christians found it impossible to believe that Jesus could do the things He does without being God Himself.

If one accepts Paul's assertion in Colossians 1:16 then there is no doubt Christ was the Creator identified in Genesis 2:4.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Adding the Holy Spirit to the Binity doctrine to make it a Trinity doctrine comes entirely from deductive reasoning.

NT scripture clearly explains the holy spirit as a power, much like electricity or wind or some other physical power that is a causative motivation for some action.

Paul says, "Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:6 NKJV)

God gives us power through his spirit, a spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

From what I read, it is and taught by Jesus.

From what I read, Jesus was given all authority by someone else who already had all authority.

All authority has been given to Me
Is that the way you read the highlighted part, too?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
If one accepts Paul's assertion in Colossians 1:16 then there is no doubt Christ was the Creator identified in Genesis 2:4.


Colossians 1:12-17
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

An argument can be successfully made that everything I highlighted in YELLOW refers to the Father and everything highlighted in GREEN refers to the Son.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
An argument can be successfully made that everything I highlighted in YELLOW refers to the Father and everything highlighted in GREEN refers to the Son.

Ok, highlight this in yellow or purple or whatever color you want.

He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
(John 1:3 NKJV)​

So what was made without him? Were the heavens and earth made without him?

...and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.
(Colossians 3:10 NKJV)​

Were humans made without him?

...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:2 NKJV)​

Were the worlds made without him?
 

Caino

Well-known member
Anti divinity advocates have a 33 year old carpenter as a temporary man-God running the universe. And if God gave ALL power, did God retire?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
G.O. you just can't/won't see the truth of the Trinity in Scripture.
Does the scripture teach us that we must believe in the Trinity doctrine to be saved?
No, it does not.

Does the scripture even state that there is such a thing as the Trinity?
No it does not.

Can a person who has been told that God is a Trinity use the scriptures to prove to himself that God is a Trinity?
Yes.

Can a person who does not believe God is a Trinity use the scriptures to prove to himself that God is not a Trinity?
Yes.

You're either
blind to truth, not a true believer, or just a guy caught up in false doctrine.
Which is it?
Your statement is an example of the logic fallacy called False Trichotomy.

I am not blind to the truth, since I search the scripture for the truth.

I am a true believer, since I believe what the scripture says.

I am not caught up in false doctrine, since I verify every doctrine of man against the teachings of the scripture.

Verifying a doctrine against the teachings of the scripture will often result in a different answer than searching the scripture for verses that can validate a doctrine.
 
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genuineoriginal

New member
He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
(John 1:3 NKJV)​

So what was made without him? Were the heavens and earth made without him?
The verse is referring to the Logos from John 1:1.
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λόγος • ‎(lógos)
  1. That which is said: word, sentence, speech, story, debate, utterance.
  2. That which is thought: reason, consideration, computation, reckoning.
  3. An account, explanation, or narrative.
  4. Subject matter.
_____​
The concept that God's spoken word was used to create the universe comes from the first chapter of the Bible.

Genesis 1:3
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.​

The spoken word of God has the power to maintain the universe.

Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​

There is nothing controversial in claiming that all things were made through the spoken word of God.

...and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.
(Colossians 3:10 NKJV)​

Were humans made without him?
The concept that humans were made in the image of God by God Himself also comes from the first chapter of the Bible.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

There is nothing controversial in claiming that God created man in His own image.

...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:2 NKJV)​

Were the worlds made without him?
What a great verse that supports Unitarianism.

We see that God, who usually speaks through prophets, is now speaking to us by His Son, and that God has appointed His Son as His heir.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Anti divinity advocates have a 33 year old carpenter as a temporary man-God running the universe. And if God gave ALL power, did God retire?

For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. (1 Corinthians 15:27 NKJV)​

Without exception there are always exceptions.

:think:
 

Elia

New member
Are you anti Trinity ?

Bs"d

God is ONE, and not three.

For the finer details look HERE


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction. The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: “Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things. Therefore behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know My hand and My might; and they shall know that My name is Y-H-W-H.”
Jer 16:19-21
 
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