The Trinity

[patrick jane]

Hello everyone. What is going on around here? Why do all my posts get deleted?

TOL did computer maintenance and we all lost some posts -

 

[Squeaky]

Thanks.

 

[patrick jane]

You missed one.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you finally believe in the Trinity now?

 

[jamie]

Do you finally believe in the Trinity now?

I've always believed in the Holy Spirit, just not the Catholic version you seem to believe in.

I believe we are baptized (in water) by the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit working through men who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. John didn't have the authority to do so because Jesus was human and the Holy Spirit was not available.

 

[Rosenritter]

Let's say for the sake of discussion that Abraham is one of the fathers of Israel, so where is Abraham?

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises...

Dead men don't talk and dead men don't turn.

Who do you believe is the Father of Adam? Who do you believe is the Father of Jesus?

Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Without Christ nothing was made that was made, and Adam was made.

Or it could mean "the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of their children to their fathers" in a general sense. I never imagined that it meant specific named people or patriarchs... I don't see how that one passage would justify being read in such an isolated specific sense to be a proper foundation for a doctrine.

 

[Rosenritter]

You missed one.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Which could be a statement of equivalence, rather than multiple Fathers. Just like when Jesus refers to God above, and then Jesus is also called God, it could be a statement of equivalence, rather than multiple Gods. And when it speaks of the Lord God and Lord Jesus, that could be the same Lord, rather than two Lords.

Does the Bible say we have one God?

Mar 12:29 KJV
(29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Does the Bible say we have one Lord?

Eph 4:5 KJV
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Does the bible say we have one Father?

Eph 4:6 KJV
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



Those aren't statements of "multiple Fathers" "multiple Lords" or "Multiple Gods" but statements that necessitate raw equivalence.

 

[Rosenritter]

You say that you don't believe in a triune God, but from this post you do seem to believe in the trinity, how is the way you believe different from the trinity?

I do see the holy spirit differently, when God spoke to Moses at the burning bush, he spoke through angel, yet the angel only spoke what God had given him to say, even saying "I am" through the angel, and Jesus when he spoke to John in revelation he spoke through an angel, yet the angel spoke as if it were Jesus speaking.

It says in the Bible that there are ministering spirits, what are those spirits who minister unto us?

The angel spoke to Moses out of flames of fire, the tongue of the spirit came upon the apostles as flames of fire at Pentecost

And Hebrews 1

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

The appearance of God is sometimes called an angel and sometimes a man, which makes it a little confusing to have a specific pinning down of which was absolutely what. The deciding factor is either a direct statement of scripture (it always scales up) and if the being permits worship. For example, Jacob wrestled a man, elsewhere it talks about the angel that appeared to Jacob, but when God himself speaks to Jacob he says that he appeared to him at that time and location. His authority was such that his decision was what changed his name to Israel and blessed him. Jacob named the place because he had "seen God and lived."

In some places in Revelation Jesus speaks, and in other places there is a different angel speaking, and sometimes speaking specific words for Jesus. Again, the telling factor is that one of these beings allows John to fall down and worship him, and the other forbids the worship and says "worship God." Therefore, the one that "was dead and is now alive" and allowed worship must be God.

I suppose the ministering spirits must minister to God, or perhaps rather to us on God's behalf.

How is what I believe different from Trinity? Apparently I "confuse the persons" which is a big Trinity-no-no. Trinity is big on "Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, etc. The bible makes no such distinction and does create that "confusion" so that's good enough for me. I also don't use Trinity terminology such as "Eternal Son" (because there is no Eternal Son) but I do believe in the Son of God as the Eternal One who was manifest in the flesh.

Also add into that "patripassionism" ... that I believe that God in heaven truly loved us to the extent that he endured the suffering of our rejection of him on the cross. I don't believe he is stone cold and heartless, but that he has actual and real feeling. Tertullian (probably the first Trinitarian) was really big that "Patripassionism" was a heresy. His gnostic idea of God had an unfeeling Father, and a vulnerable Son, and then a third Spirit to round things out.

I suppose you could say that I am sympathetic to some of the Trinity points but rather than considering it a sacred thing itself I rather consider it an imperfect model which has its own flaws, like any human model is prone to have. Try making a model of the solar system and it's not going to be perfect either. No matter whether you put the sun or earth at the center, you can't do proper scaling and have it be looked at and understood by people. But you use the model to emphasize the important points that you need to convey then and there.

I think the most important points we need from a model of God is that Jesus was and is truly God, and that the only way for us to truly know and love God is to understand Jesus, because this is how he wants to be known to us.The rest of the details are secondary I figure.

 

[jamie]

Does the Bible say we have one God?

Does the Bible say Christ has one body?

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

 

[Rosenritter]

Does the Bible say Christ has one body?

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

The "body of Christ" is a metaphor, not a literal physical body. And then there are not "two bodies" of Christ, even in the metaphor it is singular.

One God, one Father, one Lord, these are used in specific ways. I have trouble seeing how this should become "two Gods, two Fathers, two Lords" when it specifically says one in all those cases.

 

[jamie]

The "body of Christ" is a metaphor, not a literal physical body. And then there are not "two bodies" of Christ, even in the metaphor it is singular.

The body of Christ, the church, is a spiritual body which is the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ.

So who was Adam's Father?

 

[Rosenritter]

The body of Christ, the church, is a spiritual body which is the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ.

So who was Adam's Father?

In one sense he had no father because he was created. But because he was created he had a Creator, thus God was his Father.


What does this have to do with applying the prophecy of John the Baptist (Elijah) with regards to turning the hearts of the children unto the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers unto the children? It still doesn't seem to be indicating that there are two Gods.

 

[jamie]

In one sense he had no father because he was created. But because he was created he had a Creator, thus God was his Father.

I'll try again. Was Christ Adam's Father?

 

[Apple7]

Did you read that passage before claiming that it said Satan was bound at the cross?

Of course.

Hebrews 2:14-15 KJV
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

A better rendering...

επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον

epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon

Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;

A couple difficulties for your interpretation:

1) It does not say that the devil would be bound, but that the devil would be destroyed. Two entirely different concepts.One can be bound without being destroyed, and one can be destroyed without being bound.

Even in your English version, there is no future tense to Satan's dilemma.

2) It does not say that the action of destruction occurred at the moment of the cross, but that it would be accomplished through the cross. Two entirely different times. The time of fulfillment will be consistent as described by the prophets.

The Greek verb in question is in the aorist, completed action.

The event has already occurred.

It occurred at The Cross.

Satan was rendered impotent at The Cross.

The scripture already gives us the time when the devil will be bound, released, and then later destroyed. None of those were at the cross.

You are letting your end-times theology cloud your comprehension of scripture.

Satan is already bound.

He has been bound for 2k+ years.

 

[Apple7]

Hebrews 2:14 is nothing to do with Jesus destroying Satan at the natural cross, he's talking about Jesus being dead to the flesh and putting the power of Satan to death in his flesh, by denying his own will and doing the will of God, thus denying Satan and the world!

The binding of Satan is a spiritual event.

Heb 2.14 is one such passage proclaiming that Satan was bound at The Cross.

Where does it mention the cross in Hebrews 2:14?

Jesus' death occurred at The Cross.

And it's worshipping the father in spirit and in truth, There is absolutely no trinity there, Jesus is not saying for us to worship the spirit or to worship the truth but worship the father only.

The passage mentions that God is Father, Son and Spirit.

This is The Trinity.

 

[marhig]

You missed one.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Yes because the fullness of God was in and through him because he didn't live by his own will, and because he completely lived by the will of God, he spoke everything that God gave him by the spirit, he obeyed God fully and lived it out completely and he never sinned, bringing love, compassion and mercy of God to all.

Jesus was in the express image of God, but he isn't God, there is only one God and he is the father, and Jesus isn't him, and God is also the father of Jesus Christ, Jesus prayed to his father, so how can Jesus be the father too? He wasn't praying to himself! Saying Jesus is the father makes no sense whatever and there is nowhere in the Bible where Jesus tells us to call him father. And that's because there is only one father and he's the only true God!

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus was in the express image of God, but he isn't God, there is only one God and he is the father, and Jesus isn't him, and God is also the father of Jesus Christ, Jesus prayed to his father, so how can Jesus be the father too? He wasn't praying to himself! Saying Jesus is the father makes no sense whatever and there is nowhere in the Bible where Jesus tells us to call him father. And that's because there is only one father and he's the only true God!

1. Thomas seemed to think otherwise. Look what he says to the resurrected Jesus.
John 20:28 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

2. Paul seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he quotes and applies this passage from Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:22-23 KJV
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11 KJV
(11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

3. John seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he introduces his gospel.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. Jesus seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he reveals himself to John.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Right now you are having trouble understanding why Jesus made reference to God in heaven above, why he, being found in the form of a man, subjected himself in the same fashion as men. It is okay to not understand everything, or not all at once. But this is a matter of understanding and perception. The clear and concrete statements are that Jesus is indeed our Lord, our Creator, and our God. There is only One God and One Creator, therefore, if Jesus is God, then Jesus is that God.

Don't set aside the clear statements of scripture because your perception has difficulty with the ramifications. Accept the revelation first in faith, and the rest will follow.

 

[marhig]

The appearance of God is sometimes called an angel and sometimes a man, which makes it a little confusing to have a specific pinning down of which was absolutely what.

At the bush, it was the angel that said "I am" he was speaking only God's word that was given him to speak. The angel was a ministering spirit ministering the word of God to Moses.

Look at Hebrews 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

What are these ministering spirits who are sent forth to minister? And who are these spirits ministering to?

The deciding factor is either a direct statement of scripture (it always scales up) and if the being permits worship. For example, Jacob wrestled a man, elsewhere it talks about the angel that appeared to Jacob, but when God himself speaks to Jacob he says that he appeared to him at that time and location. His authority was such that his decision was what changed his name to Israel and blessed him. Jacob named the place because he had "seen God and lived."

Paul said this,

2 Corinthians 12

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory

Who is the man?

God comes through men by a ministering spirit, that spirit isn't God, but he is of God, just like God came through Jesus Christ but Jesus isn't God either. God came in a man, and God still comes in a man (or woman) now, by his spirit and it's up to us whether we obey God and listen to his spirit and deny ourselves so Christ can live through us, or lived to please or flesh and remain dead in our sins.

In some places in Revelation Jesus speaks, and in other places there is a different angel speaking, and sometimes speaking specific words for Jesus. Again, the telling factor is that one of these beings allows John to fall down and worship him, and the other forbids the worship and says "worship God." Therefore, the one that "was dead and is now alive" and allowed worship must be God.

I suppose the ministering spirits must minister to God, or perhaps rather to us on God's behalf.

yes, I believe that the ministering spirits minister to us on God's behalf, speaking only what is given to them to speak. I believe that these are the holy spirit, but they are of one voice and speak only the word of God, making them one.

There is only one cloud, but within that one cloud there are many raindrops.

How is what I believe different from Trinity? Apparently I "confuse the persons" which is a big Trinity-no-no. Trinity is big on "Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, etc. The bible makes no such distinction and does create that "confusion" so that's good enough for me. I also don't use Trinity terminology such as "Eternal Son" (because there is no Eternal Son) but I do believe in the Son of God as the Eternal One who was manifest in the flesh.

maybe because Jesus isn't the father! How can Jesus be the father when the father is his father also? Jesus is the son, not the father!

Also add into that "patripassionism" ... that I believe that God in heaven truly loved us to the extent that he endured the suffering of our rejection of him on the cross. I don't believe he is stone cold and heartless, but that he has actual and real feeling. Tertullian (probably the first Trinitarian) was really big that "Patripassionism" was a heresy. His gnostic idea of God had an unfeeling Father, and a vulnerable Son, and then a third Spirit to round things out.

Jesus suffered rejection long before the cross! He was suffering rejection right through from those who were supposed to be his own! But those who were seen as nothing's and outsiders loved him. I'm one if those outsiders, a gentile who loves him, who doesn't want to see him crucified, I want to see him live!

And God certainly isn't an unfeeling father, God is love. But he does chastise us to put us right.

My husband loves my grandson very much, he's only 2, and he's very close to his grandad. The other day he went to open and run out of the front door, my daughter told him no, and he ignored her and my husband couldn't get to him quick enough so he raised his voice to stop him. He stopped in his tracks, and ran back in sobbing, my husband hurt his feelings but stopped him being hurt. Once he came back, my husband lifted him straight up and explained to him that he has to listen and then he gave him a big hug. My husband was hurt seeing him upset.

And this is how I see God, he won't just let his children carry on going wrong, he will hurt us to help us. Or else we will run head long into a ditch prepared for us by Satan.

I suppose you could say that I am sympathetic to some of the Trinity points but rather than considering it a sacred thing itself I rather consider it an imperfect model which has its own flaws, like any human model is prone to have. Try making a model of the solar system and it's not going to be perfect either. No matter whether you put the sun or earth at the center, you can't do proper scaling and have it be looked at and understood by people. But you use the model to emphasize the important points that you need to convey then and there.

I think the most important points we need from a model of God is that Jesus was and is truly God, and that the only way for us to truly know and love God is to understand Jesus, because this is how he wants to be known to us.The rest of the details are secondary I figure.

The human model is prone to flaws, but Jesus wasn't, because he denied this human flesh completely, living only by the will of God. Thus being in God's express image!

And the only way to know God, is firstly to believe Jesus Christ whom he has sent and then, when we're ready to be converted, by God's grace receive the indwelling spirit in our hearts. We won't understand God or Jesus, if we're living to please our flesh and we're not laying down our lives so that God can live in us and Christ can live through us.

The best way to know God and Christ is to have them with you.

 

[Rosenritter]

I am not sure where you are going with this marhig, but the "man" that Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 12 is named Paul. He's speaking of himself in the third person. Which, in this case, is an interesting analogy. Is God not allowed to speak of himself in the third person, most especially when He would not be revealing himself totally at that place and time?

 

[marhig]

1. Thomas seemed to think otherwise. Look what he says to the resurrected Jesus.
John 20:28 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

2. Paul seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he quotes and applies this passage from Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:22-23 KJV
(22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.



Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

3. John seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he introduces his gospel.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. Jesus seemed to think otherwise. Look at how he reveals himself to John.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Right now you are having trouble understanding why Jesus made reference to God in heaven above, why he, being found in the form of a man, subjected himself in the same fashion as men. It is okay to not understand everything, or not all at once. But this is a matter of understanding and perception. The clear and concrete statements are that Jesus is indeed our Lord, our Creator, and our God. There is only One God and One Creator, therefore, if Jesus is God, then Jesus is that God.

Don't set aside the clear statements of scripture because your perception has difficulty with the ramifications. Accept the revelation first in faith, and the rest will follow.

Thomas hadn't yet received the holy spirit, and he could see God in Jesus.

Every knee shall bow to Jesus because God has exhalted him and set him at his right hand, Christ is still under subjection to God!

Paul even said that the head of Christ is God! If Christ is God why would God be the head of him?

What is Jesus the first and the last of?

I have no trouble understanding why Jesus made reference to God in heaven above. I understand it completely, its because God is the God of Jesus too, which Jesus clearly says himself also.

And if you believe that we shouldn't set aside clear statements in scripture then don't set aside these

John 20

but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 17

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

1 Corinthians 8

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

1 Corinthians 11

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

1 Timothy 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Ephesians 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

2 Corinthians 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort

I can go and on, it's clear to me through reading the Bible, that God is the God and father of Jesus and that he is the head of Christ!

 

[Rosenritter]

Thomas hadn't yet received the holy spirit, and he could see God in Jesus.

Every knee shall bow to Jesus because God has exhalted him and set him at his right hand, Christ is still under subjection to God!

Paul even said that the head of Christ is God! If Christ is God why would God be the head of him?

What is Jesus the first and the last of?

I have no trouble understanding why Jesus made reference to God in heaven above. I understand it completely, its because God is the God of Jesus too, which Jesus clearly says himself also.

And if you believe that we shouldn't set aside clear statements in scripture then don't set aside these

John 20

but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 17

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

1 Corinthians 8

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him

1 Corinthians 11

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

1 Timothy 2

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Ephesians 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

2 Corinthians 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort

I can go and on, it's clear to me through reading the Bible, that God is the God and father of Jesus and that he is the head of Christ!

It is generally considered a blasphemy to call someone "Lord and God" if they are not literally "Lord and God." Apostles saw God in the angels that visited them and they were corrected when they made a mistake in identification.

When Paul says the head of Christ is God, that is a statement confirming equivalence. The opposite assumption would be Christ is a separate force from God with a separate agenda. God is not a name and Christ is not a name, even though those words are sometimes used in place of such. God is authority and Christ is savior. Our salvation is sourced in the highest authority. 1 Corinthians 11:3 may support a "different person" conclusion but it does not speak against "God is one" either. The name of God and Christ is Jesus.

You keep asking "the first and last of what?" That's a stalling technique. Jesus used "I am the first and the last" three times in Isaiah and four times in Revelation. This identification could not be used with greater force, is means "I am the LORD God, I am the only God, besides which there is no other God." Whatever "first and last means" (which I will decline to be drawn off onto a rabbit trail on this here) it identifies the LORD Jehovah God.

You are ignoring the clear statements. "I am the first and last" couldn't be more clear. You own reasoning is based on a preconception, that God would not be referred to by different names dependent on application. If the user RRitter@TOL.com is exalted to glory by the System Admin, that does not preclude that the person of RRitter@TOL.com could also be the same person of the System Admin. You already have the answer to the "how could it" question. You could go on and on and the same answer would still apply.

Repetition of the same answered objection does not earn multiple credit. Accepting the clear revelation of scripture where Jesus speaks for the purpose of identifying himself would.