The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

The Father is not The Holy Spirit.

His name is Holy, and He is a spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 KJV
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit to me.

 

[Rosenritter]

The incarnation was a Triune event.

Either the Father or the Holy Ghost, depending on which passage you read. If they are the same then there is no contradiction.

 

[mitchellmckain]

Mat 28.19

πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This passage contains arthrous substantives connected via kai which indicates distinction and separate referents.

I am not buying it. The Greek word has even more meanings and uses than the English word "and", which means these idea of distinction and separateness are your additions to the text.

But it is irrelevant anyway, because it says nothing about persons and how they are distinct let alone how they are the same. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity consists of. It is not enough to say they are different in some way and the same in others. Otherwise you have all the misleading metaphors and analogies that lead to things like modalism.

However, while distinction is made between the referents, each has the same singular name.

This is a bogus argument. We simply do not use "in the names of" but only "in the name of" so you are fabricating a distinction which does not exist.

We say, "in the name of justice and truth, you must do it."
We do not say "in the names of justice and truth, you must do it."

Three Persons in one Being.

This is not in the text.

This same singular name of three persons’ baptism is the same as the Aaronic blessing in which the singular name of Yahweh is repeated three times (Num 6.22 – 27).

Worst argument yet. This is not even a repetition but simply a blessing with three parts. There is nothing even remotely about the doctrine of the Trinity in this text.

Separate and yet the same, The Trinity.

This is not in the text.

I repeat my position. The doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical, but it is not actually in the Bible.

If this kind of willful ignorance is the standard on this forum then I should delete the link to this forum as unworthy of my time and attention.

 

[Rosenritter]

And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God. Luke 1.35


The incarnation of God is accomplished via The Trinity:

•Father
•Son
•Spirit

How do you tell which are which in that statement? Are you assuming that "Most High" means "God the Father?" if so, why?

 

[Rosenritter]

I am not buying it. The Greek word has even more meanings and uses than the English word "and", which means these idea of distinction and separateness are your additions to the text.

But it is irrelevant anyway, because it says nothing about persons and how they are distinct let alone how they are the same. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity consists of. It is not enough to say they are different in some way and the same in others. Otherwise you have all the misleading metaphors and analogies that lead to things like modalism.


This is a bogus argument. We simply do not use "in the names of" but only "in the name of" so you are fabricating a distinction which does not exist.

We say, "in the name of justice and truth, you must do it."
We do not say "in the names of justice and truth, you must do it."


This is not in the text.


Worst argument yet. This is not even a repetition but simply a blessing with three parts. There is nothing even remotely about the doctrine of the Trinity in this text.


This is not in the text.

I repeat my position. The doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical, but it is not actually in the Bible.

If this kind of willful ignorance is the standard on this forum then I should delete the link to this forum as unworthy of my time and attention.

Would you do us a favor and state what you believe is (a correct) doctrine of Trinity? Thanks in advance.

 

[mitchellmckain]

Would you do us a favor and state what you believe is (a correct) doctrine of Trinity? Thanks in advance.

The Doctrine of the Trinity: Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but only one God.

That it, and the precise words are important. It is "persons" not modes or parts or roles or manifestations... And to say that they are one God means Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Talk of a Godhead or that God is three has no justification in either the Bible or the Nicene creed. These may be popular interpretations but they have serious theological problems. "Godhead" implies that together they make God, which is wrong. And there is nothing in the original agreement that limits God to three, but only says that these three are known to be God and that is all.

If you want to know how I would elaborate in modern language, it would be to say that God is trans-personal, i.e. not limited to a singularity of personhood, and thus not merely a personal God as if made in our own image but more than a person rather than less than a person.

 

[jamie]

The Father is not The Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

From a scriptural standpoint there is no question as to Jesus' paternity, the Most High is his Father. Therefore it is beyond dispute that the Father is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the kingdom of God which includes Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Since there is only one Spirit then the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are united as one Spirit.

There is one God but we know that the term "God" (Elohim) is two persons.

Malachi 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.

Christ created Adam who was a son of God and Jesus is the Son of the Most High, therefore two Fathers.

 

[CherubRam]

That's a lie based on another lie.

You need to do a more in depth study of the bible.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You need to do a more in depth study of the bible.

LOL! I have probably forgotten more about the Bible then you will ever know.

 

[achduke]

His name is Holy, and He is a spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 KJV
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit to me.

Is his name actually called "Holy" or is Holy an attribute or characteristic of his name?


Definition Holy:

dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.
"the Holy Bible"
synonyms: sacred, consecrated, hallowed, sanctified, sacrosanct, venerated, revered, divine, religious, blessed, dedicated

 

[achduke]

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

From a scriptural standpoint there is no question as to Jesus' paternity, the Most High is his Father. Therefore it is beyond dispute that the Father is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the kingdom of God which includes Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Since there is only one Spirit then the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are united as one Spirit.

There is one God but we know that the term "God" (Elohim) is two persons.

Malachi 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.

Christ created Adam who was a son of God and Jesus is the Son of the Most High, therefore two Fathers.

Does only one spirit mean that there is only one spirit in the world. We know there is only one body but there are many members of that body.

 

[achduke]

His name is Holy, and He is a spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 KJV
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit to me.

John 14:26 Makes it sounds as if the God the Father and the Holy Spirit are separate. Also John 14:13 seems as if the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own authority but speaks what he hears.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 14:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

 

[jamie]

Does only one spirit mean that there is only one spirit in the world. We know there is only one body but there are many members of that body.

There is only one Holy Spirit currently made up of two Spirit persons.

The Holy Spirit was not available while Jesus was human.

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom those believing in Him would receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[Rosenritter]

John 14:26 Makes it sounds as if the God the Father and the Holy Spirit are separate. Also John 14:13 seems as if the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own authority but speaks what he hears.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 14:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

1. Is there clear teaching that the Holy Spirit is God himself? Or is this vague?

2. Is there clear teaching that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity or person from He who speaks as Lord in scripture? Or is that vague?

I am inclined to think that the Holy Spirit is just another way we refer to God, because "One God" is pretty direct. I think the direct and absolute should take precedence and shape our understanding of the indirect and vague.

 

[achduke]

There is only one Holy Spirit currently made up of two Spirit persons.

The Holy Spirit was not available while Jesus was human.

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom those believing in Him would receive for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Where does it say the Holy Spirit is made up of 2 spirit persons? Why was the Holy Spirit not available when Jesus was here on earth? Perhaps the Spirit was not available because Jesus had not risen.

 

[achduke]

1. Is there clear teaching that the Holy Spirit is God himself? Or is this vague?

2. Is there clear teaching that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity or person from He who speaks as Lord in scripture? Or is that vague?

I am inclined to think that the Holy Spirit is just another way we refer to God, because "One God" is pretty direct. I think the direct and absolute should take precedence and shape our understanding of the indirect and vague.

Some passages or at least the translations make it seem as if the Holy Spirit is a different entity from the Father. Is the Holy Spirit God? He speaks for God. Is that the Holy Spirit speaking or is that the Father telling him what to say? Some passages like John 16:13 make it seem that he does not have complete authority like the Father does. My mind cannot completely wrap the comprehension of God. I am not spirit and have never seen spirit. I do not believe in putting God in a box of Trinity, Triune or anything else.

To those that say you must believe in the trinity to be saved I will answer with John 4:23.

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

 

[Apple7]

His name is Holy, and He is a spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 KJV
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit to me.

Your example states that God is Spirit....not that The Father is Spirit.

Further, Greek does not contain an indefinite article.

 

[Apple7]

Either the Father or the Holy Ghost, depending on which passage you read. If they are the same then there is no contradiction.

They are not each other.

 

[Apple7]

I am not buying it. The Greek word has even more meanings and uses than the English word "and", which means these idea of distinction and separateness are your additions to the text.

But it is irrelevant anyway, because it says nothing about persons and how they are distinct let alone how they are the same. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity consists of. It is not enough to say they are different in some way and the same in others. Otherwise you have all the misleading metaphors and analogies that lead to things like modalism.


This is a bogus argument. We simply do not use "in the names of" but only "in the name of" so you are fabricating a distinction which does not exist.

We say, "in the name of justice and truth, you must do it."
We do not say "in the names of justice and truth, you must do it."


This is not in the text.


Worst argument yet. This is not even a repetition but simply a blessing with three parts. There is nothing even remotely about the doctrine of the Trinity in this text.


This is not in the text.

I repeat my position. The doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical, but it is not actually in the Bible.

If this kind of willful ignorance is the standard on this forum then I should delete the link to this forum as unworthy of my time and attention.

The example provided in Mat 28 follows the established TSKTS rule of Greek grammar, and informs the reader that separate referents are in view, independent of your worldview.

 

[Apple7]

How do you tell which are which in that statement? Are you assuming that "Most High" means "God the Father?" if so, why?

The Aramaic of Daniel actually states Most Highs (plural)....so we know that at least God The Father is Most High.