The Trinity

[glorydaz]

I noticed that you said God is multiple individuals. Whereas I said that this was one individual, you said "in this case, it's not." That, ironically, would put you outside of orthodox Trinitarianism, and my understanding as correct when compared with proper Trinity belief.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...of-the-trinity-within-the-reformed-tradition/

5. Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (1938) There is little in Berkhof’s explanation of the Trinity that should surprise anyone familiar with the Reformed tradition. He affirms that there is in the Divine Being but one indivisible essence, and that in this Being there are three Divine Persons or individual subsistences (87). On this latter point, Berkhof helpfully reminds us that there are not three individuals in the Godhead, alongside of and separate from each other, but rather “personal self-distinctions within the Divine essence”

So if you were correctly applying the Granville-Sharp rule, you also disproved the Trinity doctrine as understood by the aforementioned Reformed Theologians.

I suppose it is also possible that in your zeal you may have misspoke in saying God was three individuals (whereas you equated individual and person as synonymous) but if the Trinity theory and wording is that delicate and that misunderstood even by its official adherents, that's reason enough for me to say that I won't consider myself Trinitarian. If something is true the Bible will show it on its own without outside help.

Did you notice God and Saviour is speaking of the deity of Christ? The one Person.

Where the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is speaking of the entire Godhead...the three persons.

If I'm incorrect, JR, please correct me.

 

[Rosenritter]

Did you notice God and Saviour is speaking of the deity of Christ? The one Person.

Where the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is speaking of the entire Godhead...the three persons.

If I'm incorrect, JR, please correct me.

The only place the bible uses person with respect to God is in the singular:

2 Corinthians 2:10 KJV
(10) To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Job 13:7-8 KJV
(7) Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?
(8) Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

A couple extra "the" doesn't a Trinity doctrine make.

 

[glorydaz]

The only place the bible uses person with respect to God is in the singular:

2 Corinthians 2:10 KJV
(10) To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Job 13:7-8 KJV
(7) Will ye speak wickedly for God? and talk deceitfully for him?
(8) Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

A couple extra "the" doesn't a Trinity doctrine make.

I think you missed the point. :idunno:

 

[Rosenritter]

I think you missed the point. :idunno:

The point is that the talk of "God as multiple persons" is a result of recent man-made explanations. It's not how God chose to describe himself.

 

[Apple7]

The point is that the talk of "God as multiple persons" is a result of recent man-made explanations. It's not how God chose to describe himself.

You have not bothered to study scripture.

There are scores of passages in which Yahweh alternates between first-person and third-person in His personal discourse.

The only logical conclusion that can be drawn from these instances is that Yahweh is more than one Person.

 

[eleventhhour]

:dog:

Yes, The Trinitarian translators even mistranslated and manipulated, changed and altered much of the Old Testament - concerning the Hebrew word “ פָּנִים - pânı̂ym “ FACE “ and substituted and changed it to mean “ PERSON “

Even in the Old Testament the verse that “ Rosenritter “ gave in from translation from Job 13:8

Job 13:8 = Will ye accept his “ person? “ will ye contend for God?

This Hebrew “ person “ here in Job 13:8 is the word “ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' = Meaning = The “ face “ (before or the appearance ) that which is sighted.
This Hebrew word appears 2120 times in the Old Testament Manuscripts
and of the 2120 times, the Trinitarian translators deleted the word ““ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ FACE “ and changed it to say or mean “ person - this was changed only “ 25 times out of the 2120 times that it appears in the manuscripts.
However, this word is not “ person “ - but actually means “ FACE - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ and is used in Gen 1:2 as the word “ face “ Every single time that You see the word “ FACE “ in the Old Testament it is the word “ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “

I could post the 2120 verses but it is not necessary. So I will only post 6 out of 2120 other verses. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the waters.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said :14 Thou hast driven me out this day from the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the earth; and from thy “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth
Gen 16:6 When Sara dealt hardly with “ Hagar “ = , she fled from her “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ : and God talked with Him…. 2Ki 23:27 And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight / “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ , as I have removed Israel…….. 2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD…

Throughout the entire Bible this word always really means “ FACE “ but in order for Trinitarians to codify, mold, formulate and solidify the concept of adding the word “ person “ to describe the trinity - and to change God into plural / multiple “ PERSONS “ - they changed the way the authors described this aspect of the manuscripts and changed the word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ into “ person ” 25 times out of 2120 times in the Old Testament. And they did the same exact same thing in the New Testament. The word “ FACE “ in the Greek Manuscripts is the Greek word G4383 - πρόσωπον - prosōpon / pros'-o-pon Meaning = The visage; as being towards the view ) , The countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face.

This word “ FACE “ G4383 - πρόσωπον - prosōpon / pros'-o-pon appears 78 times total - in the New Testament and out of the 78 times - the Trinitarian translators again changed it to mean “ person “ only 10 times in the trinity translation

Please notice what the Trinitarians did here in Heb_9:24.

Heb_9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself now to appear “ IN “ - “ presence G4383 “ of God for us:

Please notice the Greek word “ THE “G3588 - ὁ, ἡ, τό / ho hē to - ho, hay, to - ho, hay, to in Greek = Means = the word “ THE “ the definite article; the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

“ Here in Heb_9:24 - - The Greek says that Christ will appear or manifest “ THE “ “ THE “ FACE OF GOD - - Not appear “ IN “ the presence of God.

The Greek word “ IN “ is never in the manuscripts of - Heb_9:24

*Again in - Act_3:19 Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE G4383 “ { NOT presence } of the Lord;
*Act_5:41 they departed from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy
*2Co_10:1 the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 is base among you,
* 2Co_2:10 I forgave it, for your sakes … in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT person } G4383 of Christ;

The Greek word G4383 προ´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Always means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ and does not mean presence or person . This is a sad lie that Trinitarians have injected into their translation.

* In conclusion please here below in the next few verses below

In these next two verses, the Trinitarian translators completely removed and deleted this Greek word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ because completely = it totally destroys their manipulations, as they attempted to change the true meaning of the word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as they attempted to change the message of the original texts.
The word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ is completely deleted from Act_13:24 …
Act 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

In Act_13:24 = John preached of the coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus.

Why did the trinity translators leave it out.

Mar_12:14 & Mat_22:16 neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the “ FACE “ APPEARANCE G4383 of men.
Luk_20:21 thou teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of any.
2Co_10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:16 they disfigure their“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:17 wash thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_11:10 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ ,G4383
Mat_16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky;
Mat_17:2 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 did shineas the sun
Mat_17:6 they fell on their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_18:10 the angels behold the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of my Father
Mat_26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face,G4383 and prayed
Mat_26:67 Then they spit in his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_1:2 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_14:65 cover his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Luk_1:76 the prophet of the Highest shalt go before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord Luk_2:31 before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of all people
Luk_9:29 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was altered and his raiment was white
Luk_9:53 Jesus’s “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk_12:56 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky
1Co_13:12 then “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 to face:G4383 1Co_14:25 falling down on his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
2Co_3:7 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Moses
2Co_4:6 the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus Christ.
2Co_5:12 ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and not in heart.
2Co_11:20 if a man smite you on the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Jas_1:23 a man beholding his natural “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 in a glass
1Pe_3:12 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rev_9:7 on their headswere as it were crowns and their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the facesG4383 of men.
Rev_10:1 a rainbow was upon his head and his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the sun
Rev_11:16 fell upon their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and worshipped God,
Rev_22:4 And they shall see his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383

Also the Hebrew and Greek Lexicon / Strong’s Concordance - do not always give the meaning of words in their original form as it was used in the Manuscripts . They also add to the definitions, explanations illuminations and explanations in the way that the Trinitarian translators changed “ ADDED “ and MODIFIED to the meanings as they transformed, adjusted, altered and changed the manuscripts when translating it to a Trinitarian Book in English.

Never is God called a Person in The Bible - even if He was - The Trinitarian Translators would never explain or translate it in the way it was originally written in the manuscripts. They still would ignore it and invent their own dogma, theory, philosophy and doctrines.

 

[JudgeRightly]

:dog:

Yes, The Trinitarian translators even mistranslated and manipulated, changed and altered much of the Old Testament - concerning the Hebrew word “ פָּנִים - pânı̂ym “ FACE “ and substituted and changed it to mean “ PERSON “

Even in the Old Testament the verse that “ Rosenritter “ gave in from translation from Job 13:8

Job 13:8 = Will ye accept his “ person? “ will ye contend for God?

This Hebrew “ person “ here in Job 13:8 is the word “ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' = Meaning = The “ face “ (before or the appearance ) that which is sighted.
This Hebrew word appears 2120 times in the Old Testament Manuscripts
and of the 2120 times, the Trinitarian translators deleted the word ““ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ FACE “ and changed it to say or mean “ person - this was changed only “ 25 times out of the 2120 times that it appears in the manuscripts.
However, this word is not “ person “ - but actually means “ FACE - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ and is used in Gen 1:2 as the word “ face “ Every single time that You see the word “ FACE “ in the Old Testament it is the word “ FACE “ H6440 - פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “

I could post the 2120 verses but it is not necessary. So I will only post 6 out of 2120 other verses. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the waters.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said :14 Thou hast driven me out this day from the “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ of the earth; and from thy “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth
Gen 16:6 When Sara dealt hardly with “ Hagar “ = , she fled from her “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ : and God talked with Him…. 2Ki 23:27 And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight / “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ , as I have removed Israel…….. 2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his “ face פָּנִים - pânı̂ym / paw-neem' “ to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD…

Throughout the entire Bible this word always really means “ FACE “ but in order for Trinitarians to codify, mold, formulate and solidify the concept of adding the word “ person “ to describe the trinity - and to change God into plural / multiple “ PERSONS “ - they changed the way the authors described this aspect of the manuscripts and changed the word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ into “ person ” 25 times out of 2120 times in the Old Testament. And they did the same exact same thing in the New Testament. The word “ FACE “ in the Greek Manuscripts is the Greek word G4383 - πρόσωπον - prosōpon / pros'-o-pon Meaning = The visage; as being towards the view ) , The countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face.

This word “ FACE “ G4383 - πρόσωπον - prosōpon / pros'-o-pon appears 78 times total - in the New Testament and out of the 78 times - the Trinitarian translators again changed it to mean “ person “ only 10 times in the trinity translation

Please notice what the Trinitarians did here in Heb_9:24.

Heb_9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself now to appear “ IN “ - “ presence G4383 “ of God for us:

Please notice the Greek word “ THE “G3588 - ὁ, ἡ, τό / ho hē to - ho, hay, to - ho, hay, to in Greek = Means = the word “ THE “ the definite article; the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

“ Here in Heb_9:24 - - The Greek says that Christ will appear or manifest “ THE “ “ THE “ FACE OF GOD - - Not appear “ IN “ the presence of God.

The Greek word “ IN “ is never in the manuscripts of - Heb_9:24

*Again in - Act_3:19 Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE G4383 “ { NOT presence } of the Lord;
*Act_5:41 they departed from the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy
*2Co_10:1 the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT presence } G4383 is base among you,
* 2Co_2:10 I forgave it, for your sakes … in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ { NOT person } G4383 of Christ;

The Greek word G4383 προ´σωπον - proso¯pon / pros'-o-pon -= Always means “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ and does not mean presence or person . This is a sad lie that Trinitarians have injected into their translation.

* In conclusion please here below in the next few verses below

In these next two verses, the Trinitarian translators completely removed and deleted this Greek word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ because completely = it totally destroys their manipulations, as they attempted to change the true meaning of the word G4383 “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as they attempted to change the message of the original texts.
The word “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ is completely deleted from Act_13:24 …
Act 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

In Act_13:24 = John preached of the coming “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus.

Why did the trinity translators leave it out.

Mar_12:14 & Mat_22:16 neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the “ FACE “ personG4383 of men.
Luk_20:21 thou teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of any.
2Co_10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:16 they disfigure their“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_6:17 wash thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_11:10 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ ,G4383
Mat_16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the“ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky;
Mat_17:2 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 did shineas the sun
Mat_17:6 they fell on their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mat_18:10 the angels behold the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of my Father
Mat_26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face,G4383 and prayed
Mat_26:67 Then they spit in his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_1:2 I send my messenger before thy “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Mar_14:65 cover his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Luk_1:76 the prophet of the Highest shalt go before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord Luk_2:31 before the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of all people
Luk_9:29 his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was altered and his raiment was white
Luk_9:53 Jesus’s “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk_12:56 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the sky
1Co_13:12 then “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 to face:G4383 1Co_14:25 falling down on his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
2Co_3:7 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Moses
2Co_4:6 the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of Jesus Christ.
2Co_5:12 ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and not in heart.
2Co_11:20 if a man smite you on the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383
Jas_1:23 a man beholding his natural “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 in a glass
1Pe_3:12 the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Rev_9:7 on their headswere as it were crowns and their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the facesG4383 of men.
Rev_10:1 a rainbow was upon his head and his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 as the sun
Rev_11:16 fell upon their “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383 and worshipped God,
Rev_22:4 And they shall see his “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ G4383

Also the Hebrew and Greek Lexicon / Strong’s Concordance - do not always give the meaning of words in their original form as it was used in the Manuscripts . They also add to the definitions, explanations illuminations and explanations in the way that the Trinitarian translators changed “ ADDED “ and MODIFIED to the meanings as they transformed, adjusted, altered and changed the manuscripts when translating it to a Trinitarian Book in English.

Never is God called a Person in The Bible - even if He was - The Trinitarian Translators would never explain or translate it in the way it was originally written in the manuscripts. They still would ignore it and invent their own dogma, theory, philosophy and doctrines.

They also translated "stratias" in Luke 2:13 as "host" instead of "armies," which is what the word actually means. Is that also a mistranslation? If so, then the entire Bible is full of mistranslations, and should not be relied upon due to the number of errors you seem to think it has.

You should really stop trying to revise history to your liking.

 

[Rosenritter]

They also translated "stratias" in Luke 2:13 as "host" instead of "armies," which is what the word actually means. Is that also a mistranslation? If so, then the entire Bible is full of mistranslations, and should not be relied upon due to the number of errors you seem to think it has.

You should really stop trying to revise history to your liking.

hōst noun noun: host; plural noun: hosts a large number of people or things. "a host of memories rushed into her mind" synonyms: multitude, lot, abundance, wealth, profusion; More archaic an army. literary (in biblical use) the sun, moon, and stars. "the starry host of heaven" another term for heavenly host. Origin Middle English: from Old French ost, hoost, from Latin hostis ‘stranger, enemy’ (in medieval Latin ‘army’).

Did someone object to the word host? I think it is nicely descriptive.

 

[Apple7]

Yes, The Trinitarian translators even mistranslated and manipulated, changed and altered much of the Old Testament - concerning the Hebrew word “ פָּנִים - pânı̂ym “ FACE “ and substituted and changed it to mean “ PERSON “

Strap this one on for size, Trinity-denier...

The first commandment literally reads, as thus…

Let there be (singular verb) to you no others (plural adjective ‘acherim’) gods (plural noun ‘elohim’) before my Presences (plural noun ‘panim’) (Exo 20.3; Deut 5.7)

 

[Apple7]

The point is that the talk of "God as multiple persons" is a result of recent man-made explanations. It's not how God chose to describe himself.

Here are a couple of OT examples in which Yahweh alternates between First-Person and Third-Person...


Isaiah 51.15 - 16

But I am Yahweh your God (First-Person), stirring up the sea and making its waves roar; Yahweh of Hosts is His name (Third-Person). And I have put My Words (First-Person) in your mouth, and covered you in the shade of My hand, to plant the heavens and found the earth, and to say to Zion, You are My people.



Isaiah 42.8 - 15

I am Yahweh; that is My name(First-Person); and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and I declare new things before they happen, I cause you to hear. Sing a new song to Yahweh; His praise (Third-Person) from the end of the earth, you who go to sea, and all that is in it; the coasts and their people. Let the wilderness and its cities lift up, the villages where Kedar lives. Let those dwelling in the rock sing; let them shout from the top of the mountains. They give glory to Yahweh and declare His praise in the coastlands. Yahweh shall go out as a warrior; and He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war; He shall shout, yea, roar; He shall act mightily on His enemies. I have (First-Person) forever kept silence; I have been quiet and refrained Myself; I will groan like a woman in travail; I will pant and gasp at once I will make mountains and hills become a waste, and dry up all their plants. And I will make the rivers coastlands, and I will dry up pools.



Now....

How many Persons is Yahweh?

 

[Rosenritter]

Here are a couple of OT examples in which Yahweh alternates between First-Person and Third -Person...

Spoiler

Isaiah 51.15 - 16

But I am Yahweh your God (First-Person), stirring up the sea and making its waves roar; Yahweh of Hosts is His name (Third-Person). And I have put My Words (First-Person) in your mouth, and covered you in the shade of My hand, to plant the heavens and found the earth, and to say to Zion, You are My people.



Isaiah 42.8 - 15

I am Yahweh; that is My name(First-Person); and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and I declare new things before they happen, I cause you to hear. Sing a new song to Yahweh; His praise (Third-Person) from the end of the earth, you who go to sea, and all that is in it; the coasts and their people. Let the wilderness and its cities lift up, the villages where Kedar lives. Let those dwelling in the rock sing; let them shout from the top of the mountains. They give glory to Yahweh and declare His praise in the coastlands. Yahweh shall go out as a warrior; and He shall stir up His zeal like a man of war; He shall shout, yea, roar; He shall act mightily on His enemies. I have (First-Person) forever kept silence; I have been quiet and refrained Myself; I will groan like a woman in travail; I will pant and gasp at once I will make mountains and hills become a waste, and dry up all their plants. And I will make the rivers coastlands, and I will dry up pools.

Now....

How many Persons is Yahweh?

I guess as many persons as I am proved to be when I refer to myself in both first and third person. From what I can see, by your reasoning Rosenritter is a Trinity of three persons.

Please tell me that was a joke, and that you really didn't think that's what "third person" meant?

 

[Apple7]

Yes, The Trinitarian translators even mistranslated and manipulated, changed and altered much of the Old Testament - concerning the Hebrew word “ פָּנִים - pânı̂ym “ FACE “ and substituted and changed it to mean “ PERSON “

You can't even so much as posit a verifiable lexical definition for your assertions.

You demand that the ORIGINAL languages be referenced, but, then you continue to totally ignore the ORIGINAL language, and passages that literally mock your position to its core, as thus...


Exodus 33.14 - 15

And He said, My presences (plural noun) will go (plural verb) with you, and I will give you rest. And they said to Him, If Your presences (plural noun) does not go (plural verb) , do not cause us to go up from here.

 

[Apple7]

I guess as many persons as I am proved to be when I refer to myself in both first and third person. From what I can see, by your reasoning Rosenritter is a Trinity of three persons.

Please tell me that was a joke, and that you really didn't think that's what "third person" meant?

You never claimed to be more than person, and you have never talked about yourself alternating in the first-person and third-person...thus, we must conclude that you are one person.

Now...address the passages that were presented to you....or...ignore them....your choice...

 

[Rosenritter]

You never claimed to be more than person, and you have never talked about yourself alternating in the first-person and third-person...thus, we must conclude that you are one person.

Now...address the passages that were presented to you....or...ignore them....your choice...

Apple, it is hard for me to take you seriously when you claim that speech in the third person is proof that someone is three persons. Regardless, God never claims to be three persons (which is why you haven't shown such a scripture) so that sort of deflates your argument claim off the bat.

 

[Apple7]

Apple, it is hard for me to take you seriously when you claim that speech in the third person is proof that someone is three persons. Regardless, God never claims to be three persons (which is why you haven't shown such a scripture) so that sort of deflates your argument claim off the bat.

Your choice, as expected, was to totally ignore the scripture that you demanded to be shown.

No surprise.

Let's repost the last passage that was posted to 11th hour, so that it will provide NO doubt that Yahweh claimed to be more than one Person, and, more importantly, people understood that He was more than one Person...


Exodus 33.14 - 15

And He said, My presences (plural noun) will go (plural verb) with you, and I will give you rest. And they said to Him, If Your presences (plural noun) does not go (plural verb), do not cause us to go up from here.


Here, plain as day, Yahweh declares PLURAL presences.

Here, plain as day, the people replied back fully acknowledging Yahweh's PLURAL presences.



What can you possibly do now....?


:cigar:

 

[Rosenritter]

Your choice, as expected, was to totally ignore the scripture that you demanded to be shown.

No surprise.

Let's repost the last passage that was posted to 11th hour, so that it will provide NO doubt that Yahweh claimed to be more than one Person, and, more importantly, people understood that He was more than one Person...


Exodus 33.14 - 15

And He said, My presences (plural noun) will go (plural verb) with you, and I will give you rest. And they said to Him, If Your presences (plural noun) does not go (plural verb), do not cause us to go up from here.


Here, plain as day, Yahweh declares PLURAL presences.

Here, plain as day, the people replied back fully acknowledging Yahweh's PLURAL presences.



What can you possibly do now....?


:cigar:

I'd point out that you're not using legitimate scripture in your proof.

Exo 33:14-15 KJV
(14) And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
(15) And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

Presence is singular, and thy is also used in relation to the singular. What can I possibly do now? Write you off as a lunatic and back to blocking...

 

[Apple7]

I'd point out that you're not using legitimate scripture in your proof.

Exo 33:14-15 KJV
(14) And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
(15) And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.

Presence is singular, and thy is also used in relation to the singular. What can I possibly do now? Write you off as a lunatic and back to blocking...

Any serious scholar of scripture knows that the Hebrew is PLURAL in this passage.

Except for you.

Keep running...

 

[eleventhhour]

The verse that says Exo 33:14 And he said, My " FACE " shall go with thee, and I will give the rest.

This word " face " is used to support the idea that God was visibly and physically showing his presence in a literal way.

God was not saying that He was simply just there in a " presence form " working invisible miracles with Moses and the Israelites feeling or sensing a " presence " -

God used the word " FACE / APPEARANCE " a circumpolar, seeable and visible reality that was HIS FACE Exo 33:14 And he said, My " face " shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

Exo 33:14 God never said , My " presence" shall go with thee.................

The Face of God is a very, very important concept in the manuscripts and the trinitarian traslators changed and lifted it out and changed the meaning, context and perverted much of the Bible

(Gen 32:30), ...... Jacob then named the place where they wrestled "Peniel," which meant the "face of God," because he said, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" .

Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

The Trinitarian Translators indeed changed a great portion of original sentence structures and methods of sentencing compositions - that were used by the authors at Biblical times.
This was the way in which the language was used and spoken - and how authors “ inspired themselves by the Holy Spirit “ - spoke and communicated.

For example 1Ki 5:3 .

Here is the Original manuscript message - using the Hebrew word “ FACE “ in - 1Ki 5:3
1Ki 5:3 You know that himself David my father could not build for the name of The LORD God from the “ face “ of wars surrounding, as much as the LORD put beneath / under the palms / paws of feet.

Trinitarian Translation.
1Ki 5:3 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the LORD his God for the wars which were about him on every side, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.
This verse in Gen 11:28 is also missing the word “ FACE “ - the Trinitarian translators deleted and removed the word “ face “ .

The Hebrew word “ FACE “ was always the same word - “ FACE “ and it was used in many ways to describe ones path, the situations they faced - also a person’s personal view or outlook - also their future oncoming plans or goals that they faced.
The Hebrew word “ FACE “ was also used to indicate someone appearance and physical looks and when they appeared face to face with one another.
Trinitarians did this type of removal throughout the entire manuscripts in order to remove, eradicate, do away with, confiscate, take out and “ literally change “ the way in which the authors were using words and ideas and language arrangements and thought processes.
“ The way of thinking “ of the people of that day was totally deleted in many verses. And the Trinitarian translators replaced it with a modern translation style of verbages to fit, mold, codify, morph, - re - form, - re – summarize, and re - catalogue and classify and code and alter and re - digest the information - as they chewed up and spit out the information in the way that 16 th century Trinitarians felt that the Bible should have been defined or should have said.
An altered order and a altered doctrine or a theology was inserted - by replacing the dialog - discourse and language of the day – as they went through the Bible manipulating the sentences into rearranged, re - ajusted, reconstructed, reshuffle , replaced and reset / a reworked Trinitarian messages.
Just one more example and I will leave the stage for awhile and stop taking up so much space and let others comment.

But notice here in Gen 11:28…..
Gen 11:28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

But here again - the Trinitarian translators deleted the word “ face “ again, in - Gen 11:28
The Gen 11:28 verse has the word “ face “ in the manuscripts and the verse originally says in the manuscripts
Gen 11:28 And Haran died before the “ face “ of his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

The original Gen 11:28 verse - was using the word “ face “ to solidify the dialog of how the Bible was meant to be understood - saying that - Haran died while in the company of His very own father and this death was a changing, developing, dynamic and an altering - modifying effect that the father faced as His son and He were living in His land. Terah the father of Abraham was literally “ faced “ with the effects, consequence, outcome, result and effect of having His son who was living with Him die.

The authors were indicating that this early death had somehow - this alteration, change was upon His life and the life and path and future “ FACE “ View / appearance and path of the His father’s life.
And we see this in the Old Testament - how that Lot was the son of Haran and Haran had died at an early age.

Lots father, was Haran who had died early in life and Lots family and their abilities were diminished and reduced as Lots family eventually became dependant and in need of help upon Abraham and Abrahams family to protect them against their militant enemies and needed support from Abrahams family.
This was an important part of the message of the verse - and the Trinitarian translators completely removed and deleted and changed the message from its context.
This is how the trinity doctrine was created - as the Trinitarian translators literally hijacked and lifted out and deleted the contextual substances of many, many words and literally invented new Bible and added their personal key doctrinal contexts and frames of references and substances, in order to replace and insert the faith and ideas of the lawyer and scholars and kingdoms religious ideas that existed as faith and doctrine of the age in Europe..
Here again - the Trinitarian translators deleted the word “ face “ again, in - 1Ki 10:24

- 1Ki 10:24 And all the earth sought the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ of Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
Here the Bible says that Solomons “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ was desired, hunted and needed and sought by many, many people.
But the translators deleted the “ FACE / APPEARANCE “ of Solomon that was sought by people and simply said = 1Ki 10:24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.

But they were not just interested in simply hearing His about His wisdom - they sought His face and wanted to literally meet Him face to face.

 

[Apple7]

The verse that says Exo 33:14 And he said, My " FACE " shall go with thee, and I will give the rest.

This word " face " is used to support the idea that God was visibly and physically showing his presence in a literal way.

God was not saying that He was simply just there in a " presence form " working invisible miracles with Moses and the Israelites feeling or sensing a " presence " -

God used the word " FACE / APPEARANCE " a circumpolar, seeable and visible reality that was HIS FACE Exo 33:14 And he said, My " face " shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.

Exo 33:14 God never said , My " presence" shall go with thee.................

You keep pulling your 'definitions' out of your glutes.

Observe what the lexicons tell us...

7. 2. a. = presence, person, of ׳י Exodus 33:14,15, בְּפָנָיו Deuteronomy 4:37, מַלְאַךְ מָּנָיו Isaiah 63:9; לֶחֶם הַמָּנִים, see לֶחֶם; of ׳יs angry presence Lamentations 4:16; Psalm 21:10; of Absalom 2 Samuel 17:11; in weakened sense, nearly = suffix (compare נפשׁ 4a), Proverbs 7:15.

noun masculineProverbs 25:23 and (Ezekiel = Proverbs 21:21 = edge; on 2 Samuel 10:9 see below) feminine face, also faces (as turned toward one); — plural absolute מָּנִים Genesis 32:31 +; construct מְּנֵי 2 Samuel 14:32 +; suffix 1 singular מָּנַי Genesis 43:3 +; 3 masculine singular מָּנָיו Genesis 4:5 +, מָּנֵי֑מוֺ Psalm 11:7 (Köll.1.446); 2 masculine pluralמְּנֵ יכֶם Genesis 40:7 +, etc.; — usually with verb plural, Genesis 4:5,6; Exodus 33:14 +; with verb singular Lamentations 4:16 (through influence of intervening ׳י, Ges§ 146a), Proverbs 15:14 (but read מִּי, as Qr, see מֶּה); —

What can you do now...?

 

[Apple7]

(Gen 32:30), ...... Jacob then named the place where they wrestled "Peniel," which meant the "face of God," because he said, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" .

Your cherry-picking, out-of-context days are over.

You selected a passage that has Jacob physically wrestling with God....but, in your haste to satisfy your jaded theology, you forgot the following, which utterly destroys your position...

You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

• The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
• Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
• Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
• Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
• Man (Gen 32.24)


Adding original context to YOUR hand-selected example...


Gen 32.24 - 30

And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with him until the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered. And the sun rose on him as he passed over Penuel (plural faces!), and he was limping on his thigh.

• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
• Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
• Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
• Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
• Jacob wrestled with The God-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Word of God
• Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son



OOOps...now what can you possibly do?

:cigar: