The Theory of Original Sin

ttruscott

Active member
ttruscott, you said:

No Sir, I do not claim anyone was made a sinner especially if made is to mean created.

So do you think that God created mankind upright?:

"This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes" (Eccl.7:29).
Indeed I agree with this although when we were singing GOD's praise when we saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7, I doubt if we could be called mankind yet. Mankind is what we are called after our fall into sinfulness when we are sown, ie planted, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
If SOzo had a brain he would be dsngerous. He said the verse is an invition to abide, which means that even though they were already branches in the vine which is Christ, as the following verse demonstrates:
Once again, you ignorant hack, you rip verses out of context to create your convoluted heresy. Jesus is using "figurative language" to His disciples alone, who are NOT yet saved, for no one is "born of God" until Jesus is glorified (John 7:39). Once again, we have to read ALL of the context in order to dispel your nonsense...

John 14:5-16:33

"Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you foreverthe Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

“These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

“And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [c]will take of Mine and declare it to you.

“A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”

Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, “Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’? Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.

These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God.”

Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe? Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Jesus is speaking to them concerning a future event when He will be "going away" and telling His disciples that IF they abide in Him, He will send them the "Helper" (Holy Spirit) who has been with them, and will dwell in them. IF they keep His commandment to love one another. These are the conditions for THEM to abide in Him. They foolishly claim that they "now believe", but Jesus corrects them, and tells them that they will scatter from Him, and leave Him. The words of Jesus are a proclamation to THEM after He "goes away" and an exhortation for them to abide in Him, so that He will send them the Holy Spirit. Unless they choose to abide in Him, they will not receive the Holy Spirit, and they will not bear fruit. They will not do the "greater works". All of which will take place after He goes away.

I just realized that, because you are such an idiot, that you most likely don't know that the branches refer to Israel, which is why Jesus is telling His disciples to choose to abide.
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
According to the brainless one (Me) those whim John is addressing have rejected the gospel and are not saved.
I said no such thing, or implied it. You're a liar, just like your father, the devil.

Your reading comprehension skills resemble that of a 4 year old with a learning disability.

Again, John is affirming to those whom he is writing that THOSE who say they have no sin are lying and the truth is not in them. He is speaking about those whom he addresses in 1 John 2:26

"These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you." 1 John 2:26

LEARN TO READ, YOU MORON.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SOZO wrote;

"Once again, you ignorant hack, you rip verses out of context to create your convoluted heresy. Jesus is using "figurative language" to His disciples alone, who are NOT yet saved, for no one is "born of God" until Jesus is glorified (John 7:39). Once again, we have to read ALL of the context in order to dispel your nonsense..."

So His disciples were not yet saved even though hr descrribes them as being branches in the Vine and he is the Vine:

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"
(Jn.15:5).

Like i said, you can't fix stupid.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
So His disciples were not yet saved even though hr descrribes them as being branches in the Vine and he is the Vine:

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (Jn.15:5).
Yep, you ignored the rest of everything else Jesus said (you always do), and like the good cultist you are, you camp on one verse out of context. I've already disproven your heresy. Don't be so lazy and READ THE BIBLE. The branches are Israel, they are not saved UNTIL they choose to abide in the vine, many do not, like Judas (your hero). But, again, you have no clue what salvation is, because you are not saved.

Like i said, you can't fix stupid.
And you are the evidence of that.
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
There is clearly no one on this site as Biblically illiterate, or as lazy, as Jerry Shugart.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ttruscott, you said:

"Indeed I agree with this although when we were singing GOD's praise when we saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7, I doubt if we could be called mankind yet. Mankind is what we are called after our fall into sinfulness when we are sown, ie planted, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39."

Job 38:7 speaks of the "sons of God" as in the Ot the phrase "sons of God" refers strictly ypo angels (Ge.6;4).

Do you believe that each individual human soul existed before mortal conception (the prexistence of the soul)?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SOZOS wrote;

Again, John is affirming to those whom he is writing that THOSE who say they have no sin are lying and the truth is not in them. He is speaking about those whom he addresses in 1 John 2:26

"These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you." 1 John 2:26

LEARN TO READ, YOU MORON.

John's words were written to believers:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:120.

Those to whom John addressed His words were saved and obviously believed that Jesus is the Christ and were therefore born of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (! Jn.5:1).

The following words were also addressed to believers who were born of God:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"
(1 Jn.1:8).

So according to John those who are born of God do sin but you insist that they cannot sin.

Sozo refuses to answer the question, "Have you sinned since you were saved and were born of GOD?"

i suspect he belongs to a cult which teaches that believers cannot sin and he doesn't want us to know he belongs to that cult so he refuses to answer, proving that the truth is not in him.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SOZO wrote:

"The branches are Israel, they are not saved UNTIL they choose to abide in the vine."


Here is what the Lord Jesus said to those to whom He was addressing:

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"
(Jn.15;3-5).

SOZO must think that Israel was clean through the words He spoke to her!

As I said, you can't fix stupid!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:8).

So according to John those who are born of God do sin but you insist that they cannot sin.
That's not what John said at all, you pervert.

John said that if he or they (we) were to say they have no sin, then they would be deceiving themselves, and the truth is not in them.

And in the same letter John says this and contradicts YOU completely.

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin" - The apostle John recorded in God's word.

"Those who are born of God do sin" - Jerry Shugart, a godless heretic, who calls God a liar.

It's so easy to prove that you are a child of Satan.

Easy question, and anyone can answer, because I know you won't...

If someone has been cleansed of all sin, by the blood of Jesus (vs 7) are they lying if they say they have no sin, or are they lying if they say they still have sin?
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
"The branches are Israel, they are not saved UNTIL they choose to abide in the vine."

Here is what the Lord Jesus said to those to whom He was addressing:

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (Jn.15;3-5).
Already addressed all this by quoting ALL of Jesus words in post #42 that were directed exclusively to His disciples, as the word of God testifies, but you hate God's word and so you pervert it.

Your claim that the disciples were saved when Jesus was speaking to them here, is absolutely false. All anyone has to do is read the entire context, but most people are too lazy, like you.

As I said, you can't fix stupid!
And you are the proof of that. You also can't fix lazy, and you are both.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SOZO said;

"I never said otherwise.

You are a stupid, stupid, person, and a liar."


Do you deny that you said that those who were born of God cannot sin?

Do you deny that the following words were adressed to those who had had their sins forgiven and believed that Jesus is the Christ?:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:8).

Do you assert that you have not sinned since you were saved and born of God?

Do you refuse to answer that question on the grounds that your answer will tend to tie you to the cult which teaches that Christians, who are born of God, cannot sin?

What other reason could you possibly give for your refusal to answer?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Do you deny that you said that those who were born of God cannot sin?
LOL! Nope, unlike you, I do not deny God's word. Do you deny that God's word says...

"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin"
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."


Do you deny that the following words were adressed to those who had had their sins forgiven and believed that Jesus is the Christ?
LOL! Nope, do you deny that, those who have been cleansed of all sin, by the blood of Jesus, are not lying, if they say they have no sin?
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
It's so fun to reveal that Jerry is a false teacher, who has never believed the Gospel, and is too lazy to read the whole Bible.

For anyone who cares to follow along and see why Jerry doesn't understand a thing he reads, and is prone to contradicting himself and the Bible, here is a more thorough commentary I wrote on 1 John 1 several years ago...


"The Law of Noncontradiction" is a standard of logic that basically states that if something is true the opposite is false. You cannot have two opposing truths. If it is "A" it cannot be "B" at the same time. 2+2 cannot be 4 and also 10. It is either 4 or it is 10. Truth by definition is exclusive.

An individual cannot be both righteous and unrighteous. Yes, there are individuals who are righteous, and there are those who are unrighteous, but both things cannot be true about a single individual. You are EITHER righteous, OR you are unrighteous.

We / You

In Chapter 1 of John’s letter, when he references himself (and perhaps the other disciples whom Jesus chose, or those who were with him at the time he is writing his letter) he uses the words “we”, “our” and “us” repeatedly. When John refers to those to whom he is writing he uses the word “you”. As we go through this the distinction becomes clearer. However, when the 2nd chapter begins (and it may be why the translators call it “chapter 2) John begins to speak of only himself to the readers as “I”. I believe the reason for this has to do with the main reason John is writing his letter. It is to correct false doctrine that had crept in among his readers concerning Jesus and sin. In the first chapter, John wants to assure the readers by defending his apostleship and distancing himself from those who had been deceiving them. And, he uses the words we/our/us as a matter of validation that he is not alone in his declarations concerning the truth.

Some theologians have suggested that the “we” in chapter 1 is a “royal we” whereas John is expressing his authority, but as you read this it becomes obvious that is not the case. You will also see that the we/our/us is not John speaking of himself and his readers, but himself and those who also "saw, heard, and handled" the Son of God..

The apostle writes his letter to a group of Jewish believers and unbelievers who had been subject to false teaching (most likely Gnosticism) and John wants to correct that which some had come to believe.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you." 1 John 2:26

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:1-3

There are many forms of gnosticism and their beliefs, but here John is dealing specifically with those who claimed that Jesus did not come in the flesh, for they teach that all matter is an illusion, being "evil" and thus man has no true sin nature.

John begins his letter affirming that those who knew Jesus can testify to the truth that He did indeed come in the flesh.

1 John 1:1

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;"

Jesus was from the beginning. In fact, when John writes Revelation, he quotes Jesus : " I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" Rev 1:8

John, and those with John ("we"), had not only seen and heard Jesus, but they had touched Him with their hands. He was not an illusion, but walked with them, taught them, ate with them, and they watched Him shed His blood on the cross. And they witnessed Him declare that He is the "life".

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"I am come that they might have life..." John 10:10

1 John 1:2

"For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

John reassures those receiving his letter that the life Jesus came to give was manifested to him and he is now showing it to them as a testimony that he, and those with John (we) have eternal life. His readers had been deceived by others, and John is not deceiving them. He defends his ministry. John wants to confirm to those he is writing that he has eternal life. He is not suggesting that they do not have eternal life, but that if they believe in Him they also have eternal life.

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:9-13

Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh, or that there is no sin, do not "have the Son". They do not have the "life". The witness of God concerning His Son is made known by those who believe God, and God affirms that He sent His Son in the flesh, to die for our sins.

1 John 1:3

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

Again, John uses the word “we” here to describe those who had seen and heard the “Word of life” and It is obvious that John wants to assure his readers that fellowship between “we” and “you” is predicated on both groups having fellowship with the Father and the Son. Because of John’s testimony concerning their (we) earthly relationship with Jesus, his readers can be confident that what John is saying is born out of his fellowship with both Jesus and His Father who sent Him.

1 John 1:4

“And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.”

Many translations say “our joy” and many say “your joy”. I don’t think it matters, because John’s point is that being able to fellowship with one another brings joy to both groups. John’s readers can be relieved by the knowledge that they now have someone they can fellowship with who truly was sent by God to testify to the truth concerning Jesus. That had not been the case with those who were trying to seduce them with false doctrine about who Jesus is and what He has done concerning sin.

1 John 1:5

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”

Having established with his readers that he is trustworthy regarding his fellowship with the Father and the Son, and that they can also fellowship with him, John now reveals why neither of them have fellowship with those who had been trying to deceive them. The message John received concerning Jesus is contrary to the message that his readers had heard. John proceeds to affirm to his readers that there is no darkness in God, for He is the Light.

Light / Darkness

“In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” John 1:4-5

The life of Jesus is the Light of men. There is no darkness in Jesus, and Jesus is our life (Col 3:4)

“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

“…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.” Acts 26:18

“…for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light” Eph 5:8

“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son” Col 1:13

“But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness” 1 Thess 5:4-5

The very life of God dwells in those who are saved. They are in the Light, and the Light is them. They are not in darkness, cannot walk in darkness, and shall never be in darkness.

1 John 1:6

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:”

This is not difficult to understand. If you are not saved (in darkness), then you are not in fellowship with God, and if you say you are in fellowship, then you're lying. There is no verse in the Bible that declares that believers can walk in darkness. Not a single one. Those who have been told that have been lied to. Those who are in Christ are in the light, just as He is in the light. If John and those with John (we) were to say that they have fellowship with God, but were in darkness, they would be liars, and not to be believed. John is making known to his readers that those who have seduced them are in darkness, having denied that Jesus has come in the flesh.

1 John 1:7

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

Here is the crux of John's message, and it is clear that to be in fellowship with God that you are "in the light" as He is "in the light" and the result has been that you are cleansed of all sin.

As John explains later... "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."

You cannot be in sin and in Jesus. It is impossible. Those who teach that you can move in & out of fellowship also believe that you move in & out of light, in & out of life, and in & out of Christ! That is a doctrine of demons, and one that paralyzes believers into a fear of having any hope that God loves them and that He sustains or keeps them.

Notice that John affirms that those who are in the light have been cleansed from all sin. If someone has been cleansed from all sin, they are in fellowship with those who have also been cleansed from all sin. They are not in fellowship with those who deny that they have sin that needs to be cleansed. If John was claiming he had no sin to be cleansed, then they could not have fellowship with John. Again, John is exposing those who had seduced his readers.

1 John 1:8

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”

If John were saying the same thing as those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed, then John would be deceived and have no truth in Him. Obviously, John is not saying that those who have been cleansed from all sin are lying. if they say they have no sin, for they have been cleansed. You cannot say you have something if you just had it removed. No, John is saying that those who say they have no sin that needs to be cleansed are lying and deceiving themselves. They are denying the One who shed His blood for our sins. EITHER you've been cleansed OR you have not. Those who have fully agreed with God their need to have their sin cleansed, are telling the truth. Those who have rejected their need to be cleansed, and the One who is just to cleanse them, have no truth in them. They have rejected the gospel.

Righteous / Unrighteous

1 John 1:9


“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness “

To confess is to agree with God or to say the same as God would say concerning our sin. Just as the tax collector in the temple confessed he a was sinner asking for God's mercy, so do all those who know that they have sin that needs to be taken away. However, only God is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 reaffirms verse 7. To be justified by faith we admit that we have in fact, sinned. Therefore, John proclaims that it is indeed Jesus who is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If Jesus has cleansed you, you cannot make yourself uncleansed! You were unrighteous because you were "in Adam", "in darkness", & "in the flesh". You had no ability to make yourself righteous apart from the cross. But, having now come to Christ, you have been cleansed and are "in Christ", "in the light", "in fellowship", & "in the Spirit"! You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous or righteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of all sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once!

"For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness"

Jesus is not going to be crucified every time you think you need forgiveness. The unrighteous were made unrighteous by the offense of one man (Adam). The righteous are made righteous through faith in the obedience of One Man (Jesus).

You are EITHER righteous OR unrighteous. You cannot be both, and having been made righteous, you can never be made unrighteous. Therefore, 1 John 1:9 can only be speaking of those who have never been made righteous, not those who are the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor 5:21)

1 John 1:10

“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

John affirms that those who claim that they never sinned are calling God a liar, and Jesus is not in them. Again, John includes himself, so that those whom he is writing know that those who are going to be their teachers must affirm that they have sinned and that the sacrifice of Jesus is the only propitiation for sin, so they will not be seduced by those who have been deceiving them.

John has fully established his credibility with those he is writing. He now turns to his apostolic authority and no longer refers to “we” but “I” and his instructions on how they should proceed. His readers now know where they stand concerning what it was they had been told by the false teachers. To those who had been seduced into believing that Jesus had not come in the flesh and that they had no sin to be cleansed, John has revealed to them that they are still in darkness, and have yet to know Jesus as their Advocate. To others who have been cleansed from all sin, John is thankful, but to those who have not been cleansed, he addresses first. They are yet to be the children of God, yet John appeals to them as a father caring for his own.

1 John 2:1-2

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”

Jesus fully satisfied (propitiated), by His once for all sacrifice, their sins. To be in Christ, is to be free from sin. To be in Christ is to have received forgiveness of all their sin (Col 1:14).

Jesus is the only One qualified as their Advocate. He is the only One who is “faithful & just” to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. Having once been cleansed, they are to no longer have consciousness of sins (Heb 10:2). His sacrifice is wholly sufficient, not only for their sins, but the sins of the whole world, including those who had tried to deceive them.

I want you to look one more time at what John just said in the first sentence of chapter 2 verse 1.

“I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.”

John is clearly suggesting that sin will cease, and as they continue to read his letter it becomes obvious that it becomes a reality for those who are “born of God”. To “not sin”, does not come any other way than by having first come to their Advocate who cleanses them from all sin, gives them His life, and makes them the righteousness of God. They are now new creations, born of God, and His Seed (Jesus) abides in them.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9

Again,Zane Hodges write the following commentary on 1bJohn 3:9:

"'God's seed' is his nature, given to each believer at salvation (John 1:13; 2 Peter1;4). the point here is that the child partakes in the nature of his Parent...all sin is devilish (1 John 3:8); it does not stem from the believer's regenerate nature; God's seed, but the child of God cannot and does not sin...Sin is not, nor ever can be, anything but satanic. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the level of his regenerate being."

Hodges also wrote:

"The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless lifre perfectly on this earth; hence, 1;8,10 remain true. the two ideas are not really incompatible . The Christian still experiences a genuine struggle with the flesh and overcomes its impulses only by the help of the Holy Spirit (c.f. Gal.5:16-26).

"Paul's thinking also conforms with this view.in his struggle with sin he was able to conclude, 'Now if what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.'( Rom.7:20). In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being (Rom.7:25)"


Zane Hodges taught New Testament Greek and Exegesis (1959–1986) at Dallas Seminary and was chairman of the New Testament Department for some time and was the founder and president of Kerugma Ministries.

Now that I have addressed 1 John 3;9 it is time for you to run and hide again from the evidence I gave which proves that those who are born of God do sin:

Those to whom John addressed His words in his first epistle were saved and obviously believed that Jesus is the Christ and were therefore born of God:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (! Jn.5:1).

The following words were also addressed to believers who were born of God:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:8).

to this verse SOZO said:

"if they say they have no sin, for they have been cleansed. You cannot say you have something if you just had it removed:


Why would John tell these same people the following about what theyy must do to have their sin removed if they had no sin that needed to be removed?:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:7-8).

Again, those words of John are addressed to believers who have been born of God. why would he speak to these believers about being cleansed from all unrighteousness if they hadn't sinned since the were born of God?

"So according to John those who are born of God do sin but ZOZO insists that they cannot sin.

Sozo refuses to answer the question, "Have you sinned since you were saved and were born of GOD?"

SOZO is a fraud who refuses to answer simple questions or address verses which prove his silly ideas are in error.
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
those who are born of God do sin
God disagrees with you...

"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin" 1 John 3:9

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1 John 5:18

And what Bible did you say you read? :LOL:

"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 1 John 3:6

"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning." 1 John 3:8

“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin." - The Lord Jesus Christ

Zane Hodges, Zane Hodges, Zane Hodges bla, bla, bla

Shame you worship and serve Zane Hodges and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

SOZO is a fraud
No, that would be YOU, the one who calls Jesus a liar, and claims that Zane Hodges knows more than God.
 

ttruscott

Active member
ttruscott, you said:

"Indeed I agree with this although when we were singing GOD's praise when we saw the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7, I doubt if we could be called mankind yet. Mankind is what we are called after our fall into sinfulness when we are sown, ie planted, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39."

Job 38:7 speaks of the "sons of God" as in the Ot the phrase "sons of God" refers strictly ypo angels (Ge.6;4).
I have never claimed that the term sons of GOD has never referred to angels but that angel is an interpretation of the scripture not a reporting of what was written...ALL the bene elohim, not malek, angel...a bit of eisegesis as it were that means the interpretation that it can refer to all HIS creation of all people in HIS image is also available and legitimate.

Do you believe that each individual human soul existed before mortal conception (the prexistence of the soul)?
I believe in the pre-conception existence of all spirits created in the image of GOD with HIS intention that they become HIS marriage partner. Since the words spirit and soul can be read as referring to different things, I think that the soul refers to a spirit bound by / in a physical body so no soul predated the creation of the physical universe, only all spirits.

But it matters not to me. If the soul can refer to the person is they were first created before being sown, planted, into this world as human, Matt 13:36-39. then I won't quibble.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
i already addressed that verse and you know it.shame that you refuse to answer why John would tell those born of God to confess their sins if they had no sins to confess:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:7-8).

As usual you pick and choose which verses from the Bible that you believe and which ones you ignore.

As for Zane Hidges, he has much more credibility as a teacher of the word of God than you will ever have. But again, you have no respect for any Christian who does not agree with you on every single thing found in the Bible, no matter how small.

Prove that you actually understand qhat John wrote at 1 John 1:7 if you can.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
The following words were also addressed to believers who were born of God:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:8).

to this verse SOZO said:

"if they say they have no sin, for they have been cleansed. You cannot say you have something if you just had it removed:

Why would John tell these same people the following about what theyy must do to have their sin removed if they had no sin that needed to be removed?:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn.1:7-8).

Again, those words of John are addressed to believers who have been born of God. why would he speak to these believers about being cleansed from all unrighteousness if they hadn't sinned since the were born of God?
I've already FULLY answered all of these questions several times in my previous posts, you lying donkey's butt. You are either too lazy or too stupid to read what the Bible says, and my commentary on those verses. For you to claim that I have NOT answered your questions is a bald-faced lie, and you are a liar. This is also why you call God's word a lie, and instead worship and serve Zane Hodges.

Here is more evidence that you have never believed God's word...

How does someone know if they sin? Let's let the Bible tell us...

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." 1 John 3:4

"Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20

"For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the Law brings about wrath; for where there is no Law there is no transgression." Rom 4:14-15

"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, “You shall not covet.” Rom 7:7

According to God's word, the Law reveals sin. It's like a mirror. It does not make your face dirty, but is reveals that you have a dirty face. The strength of sin, is the Law.

"The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law." 1 Cor 15:56

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the Law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no Law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Rom 5:12-14

The above verse solidifies the truth that sin was in the world and death through sin, even though they had not sinned in the likeness of Adam. This is because sin reigns in death.

"Moreover the Law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:20-21

The Law revealed that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Sin reigns in death. Grace and righteousness reign in life. Those who are dead in Adam are slaves of sin. Those who are alive in Christ are slaves of righteousness. A person is one or the other, and you cannot be both.

Therefore, since sin reigns in death, in order for anyone to no longer continue in sin, they must be made alive in Christ. The abundant grace of God frees us from the abundance of sin.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin." Rom 6:1-7

Paul makes it abundantly clear that those who have been crucified with Christ and raised to new life cannot continue in sin. The old man (in Adam) has died to sin, and the body of sin "destroyed". To "serve sin" is to return to the Law. To become a slave of sin, is to seek justification by works, rather than by faith. The Law can only reveal sin, and those who serve the Law are those who continue to sin. Those who are born of God, cannot sin, because they are free from sin, and slaves of righteousness. As Jesus said "Everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin".

Now, can believers contribute to sin, yes. How? By leading others away from the faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

There is sin, that is a violation of the Law (behavior) and there is sin that is not of faith (unbelief).

"Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief." Heb 3:17-19

So, when John tells us that those who are born of God cannot sin, the context is lawlessness. The same is true, when the apostle Paul says that believers cannot continue in sin, and when Jesus says that those who sin are slaves of sin. However, believers can and do sin in regards to unbelief. They not only participate by returning to the Law (Galatia), but also in contributing to the unbelief of others (Corinth). Because YOU, and most others, do not qualify the differences and you lack a fundamental understanding of what salvation is, what it means to be a "new creation", "born of the Spirit", "born of God", "alive in Christ", etc., you forever continue to speak about those things you fail to understand, and you contribute to leading others away from the faith.
 
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