The Theory of Original Sin

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Calvinist Thomas R. Schreiner wrote that "human beings enter into the world condemned and spiritually dead because of Adam's one sin."

According to the theory of Original Sin all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead. However, let us look at the following verse:

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5; NIV).

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated 'rebirth' "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation."

The word "rebirth" is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action."

According to BDAG, palin refers "to repetition in the same (or similar) manner, again, once more, anew of something a pers. has already done."

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity."

So when we combine the two words the meaning is a repetition of a birth. Therefore, when Paul used the Greek word translated "rebirth" to describe his salvation experience he was speaking of a repetition of a birth.

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewal of the Holy Spirit."

Since the renewal of the Holy Spirit is in regard to being made alive spiritually then the previous birth of the Spirit must also be in regard to being made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit. In other words, since a person is "rebirthed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

In the following passage Paul speaks of being "alive" before he sinned:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In his commentary on this passage John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually."

A persin must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Since the renewal of the Holy Spirit is in regard to being made alive spiritually then the previous birth of the Spirit must also be in regard to being made alive spiritually by the Holy Spirit. In other words, since a person is "rebirthed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.
I would mark this essay as a winner if such an emoji was used here.

But I disagree with your conclusion that that being born of the Holy Spirit happened at conception and then again at our rebirth. I place our first birth in the Spirit as at our creation before the creation of the physical universe which we all witnessed and sang HIS praises and which creation witnessed to us of the perfection of YHWH's deity and power so none had excuse, not even those who never sinned on earth physically but who still died in their infancy, proving their sinfulness.

As for the idea that YHWH created HIS creation, HIS church, HIS bride as destitute of any goodness, separated in spirit from HIM and as righteous as filthy rags reeks of a lack of connection to the GOD who is love and of blasphemy.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
In other words, since a person is "rebirthed" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.
I believe that at conception we receive the "breath" of life, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given to believers later. "And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22).

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being" (Gen. 2:7)

Strong's Concordance
neshamah: breath
Original Word: נְשָׁמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: neshamah
Phonetic Spelling: (nesh-aw-maw')
Definition: breath
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Case closed.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
truscott, you said:

"I place our first birth in the Spirit as at our creation before the creation of the physical universe which we all witnessed and sang HIS praises and which creation witnessed to us of the perfection of YHWH's deity and power..'

What Scripture can you give to support your assertion?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
bradley you quoted the following verse:

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being" (Gen. 2:7).

Since the Lord Jesus was made like his brothers in all things then doesn't it make sense that all people are born made spiritually slive at conception:?

"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2;17).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS,

You wrote:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

"Case closed."

Do you think that none of the Jews who received the Lord Jesus and were "born of God" never sinned?

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I think that it does not have the meaning which you seem to be placing on it since it is obvious that those who were "born of God'"at John 1;111-13 did sin.

Zane Hodges write the following commentary on the verse which you quoted:

"'God's seed' is his nature, given to each believer at salvation (John 1:13; 2 Peter1;4). the point here is that the child partakes in the nature of his Parent...all sin is devilish (1 John 3:8); it does not stem from the believer's regenerate nature; God's seed, but the child of God cannot and does not sin...Sin is not, nor ever can be, anything but satanic. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the level of his regenerate being."


Noe please answer my question about John 11-13.

Thanks!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Zane Hodges write the following commentary on the verse which you quoted:

"'God's seed' is his nature, given to each believer at salvation (John 1:13; 2 Peter1;4). the point here is that the child partakes in the nature of his Parent...all sin is devilish (1 John 3:8); it does not stem from the believer's regenerate nature; God's seed, but the child of God cannot and does not sin...Sin is not, nor ever can be, anything but satanic. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the level of his regenerate being."
Zane Hodges just said that those who are born of God cannot sin, so he disagrees with your misunderstanding of John 1:13. In fact, Zane understands that John 1:13 is a commentary on those who will be born of God (a new creation in Christ, having been born of the Spirit). As usual, you don't understand anything you read, so you pour your own convoluted meaning in to every text. No one was "born of God" until after Jesus was glorified... "

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

What you do, and have always done, is take a verse like John 7:38 and ignore John 7:39. You flail your arms and go "see? see?, Jesus said that when the Jews believed on Him, out of their bellies flowed living water", and then you try and make a case that they were born of God before they received the Holy Spirit. Instead of reading the whole Bible, so as to understand all of it, you run around like a maniac, creating all kinds of false doctrines from a single verse. Because you don't understand the difference between the "promise of life" and the "receiving of life" (salvation), your entire Biblical view is a mess.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
if you believe thatthe Lord Jesus is the Christ then you sre born of God (1 John5;10) so do you admit that you are born of God? If you do can you say that you haven't sinned since you were born of God.

Hodges also wrote:

"The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless lifre perfectly on this earth; hence, 1;8,10 remain true. the two ideas are not really incompatible . The Christian still experiences a genuine struggle with the flesh and overcomes its impulses only by the help of the Holy Spirit (c.f. Gal.5:16-26).

"Paul's thinking also conforms with this view.in his struggle with sin he was able to conclude, 'Now if what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.'( Rom.7:20). In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being (Rom.7:25)"

Now please answer my question.

Thanks!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Now please answer my question.
First of all, you pervert, you are unqualified to tell me what to do. I will tell you the truth, and you will either accept it or reject it. Generally, you have chosen the latter.

You have made it abundantly clear that you reject God's word here...

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

So, answering your questions is meaningless, since you don't believe God's word.

Secondly, I have already proven to you that no one was born of God until AFTER Jesus was glorified. Again, you hate God's word, and so you have to pervert what is said to fit into your box of lies.

So, the answer to your question, and HERE IT IS, so don't lie, like you always do and say I never answered your question, you godless, hell-bound pervert...

The Jews (or anyone else) sinned UNTIL Jesus died for their sins, was buried, and raised for our justification, and then having believed the message of the gospel, were "born of God". So, your claim that they were born of God BEFORE Jesus was glorified is false.

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"


Hodges also wrote:

"The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless lifre perfectly on this earth
Thankfully, the Bible is our source of truth, and not you or Zane Hodges.

I'll believe the Bible, and not you...

"Everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin" - Jesus (John 8:34)

"But thanks be to God that though you WERE slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed (the Gospel), and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." Rom 6:17-18

  • "The power of sin is the Law." 1 Cor 15:56
  • "The Law is not of faith" Gal 3:12
  • "Apart from the Law sin is dead." Rom 7:8
  • "The righteous will live by faith". Gal 3:11

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:4-6

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8

You, Jerry, are either of the devil, a slave of sin, or not born of God. Which is it?

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1 John 5:1

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 John 5:18
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You have no respect for what Paul wrote here because you think, for some reason, that his words do not apply to you;

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"
(Eph.4;1-3).

Your attitude toward others prove that you are not born of God:

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of god, and knoweth God" (1 Jn.4;7).
 

ttruscott

Active member
truscott, you said:

"I place our first birth in the Spirit as at our creation before the creation of the physical universe which we all witnessed and sang HIS praises and which creation witnessed to us of the perfection of YHWH's deity and power..'

What Scripture can you give to support your assertion?
Off the top:
Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of GOD shouted for joy? If one is a son of GOD then he was there witnessing the creation and singing his heart out!!!

This and the hints that Adam and Eve were sinners in the garden are a good start...

I have dozens of verses....just not dozens of orthodox interpretations of these verses!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
You have no respect for what Paul wrote here because you think, for some reason, that his words do not apply to you;

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4;1-3).

Your attitude toward others prove that you are not born of God:

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of god, and knoweth God" (1 Jn.4;7).
Did Jesus love the Pharisees? Yes or no?
Did Paul love Elymus? Yes or no?


I have no respect for false teachers like you.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You have no respect for anyone who does not agree with you even on the most minor issues.

You need to seek professional help.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
ttruscott, you said;

"This and the hints that Adam and Eve were sinners in the garden are a good start..."

So even though God referred to the totality of His creation as being "very good" (Gen.1:31) you say that adam and eve were made sinners?

Even though the Scriptures declare that the Lord Jesus was made like His brothers in all things? (Heb.2;17)?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
You have no respect for anyone who does not agree with you even on the most minor issues.
I have no respect for you, because you are a liar.

Answer the questions...

Did Jesus love the Pharisees? Yes or no?
Did Paul love Elymus? Yes or no?
 

JudgeRightly

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Staff member
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"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Case closed.

Question: If a believer, someone who has placed their faith in Christ and who is sealed by the Holy Spirit, is not abiding in Christ, can he sin?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Did Jesus love the Pharisees? Yes or no?
Did Paul love Elymus? Yes or no?

Does God love the whole human race or not?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
(Jn.3:16).
 
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