The Pagan Christmas Tree is OK

[Hilston]

Hi Hilston:

Thanks for your reply. I do have a question:

What "day" do you understand Paul to be referring to in Romans 2:16?

It either refers to the day of the Rapture Battle, in which case it pertains to the declaration of the members of the Body of Christ, or it refers to the Final Judgment. I haven't come to a conclusion regarding which one it is. My larger point was that Paul's gospel will be the standard by which all men of the present dispensation will be judged, whether the elect at the Rapture Battle or the reprobates of this dispensation at the Great White Throne.

 

[Hilston]

I had to go back and look at this one a bit. I think this commentary said it best:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible Let no man, therefore, judge you - compare Romans 14:10, note, 13, note. The word judge here is used in the sense of pronouncing a sentence. The meaning is, "since you have thus been delivered by Christ from the evils which surrounded you: since you have been freed from the observances of the law, let no one sit in judgment on you, or claim the right to decide for you in those matters. You are not responsible to man for your conduct, but to Christ; and no man has a right to impose that on you as a burden from which he has made you free."

Even if we grant Barnes' interpretation (which I don't), how does one stop others from judging them? Think about it. Paul deliberately said to let no one do it. Is Paul commanding us to confront people and say, "Hey! It looks like you're sitting in judgment of me. Stop it!" The answer is no. He is rather saying to abstain from any behavior that would give occasion for others to judge you specifically regarding the observance of religious holidays, rituals and ceremonies.

People who are imposing upon me a restriction to celebrate Christmas fall under this passage.

On the contrary, you, by celebrating religious holidays, fall under the passage. You are not seeing to that others cannot judge you with respect to the observance of religious holidays.

Throughout scripture, believers are told to judge with a right judgment, that is, according to God's Word. Judging you for celebrating a religious holiday that the Scriptures forbid is a right judgment, and one that Paul himself makes in this passage and in others. Your "nicer than Christ" approach to judging others is not supported by Scripture.

When Paul warned the Galatians, judging them for observing "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10), he even went as far to say, "I am afraid for you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Gal 4:11). According to you and Barnes, and his erroneous interpretation of the Colossians passage, Paul was in violation of his own words in Colossians 2.

In essence, I am free to celebrate Christmas if I so choose.

Maybe according to Barnes, but not according to the Bible. I'll stake my rewards on the latter.

You may not agree with me, but you may not sit in judgment over me (nor I over you) because of it.

Not only may I sit in judgment over you for it, but, according to Scripture, I'm obligated to do so.

By the way, contrary to Barnes' view, Romans 14 has nothing to do with Colossians 2. The weak brother in Romans 14 is a believer of Israel, living and functioning in a Body context. Paul is instructing Body saints to be sensitive and accommodating to the sensibilities and aversion of believing Kingdom saints.

 

[Nang]

It either refers to the day of the Rapture Battle, in which case it pertains to the declaration of the members of the Body of Christ, or it refers to the Final Judgment. I haven't come to a conclusion regarding which one it is. My larger point was that Paul's gospel will be the standard by which all men of the present dispensation will be judged, whether the elect at the Rapture Battle or the reprobates of this dispensation at the Great White Throne.

"Rapture Battle?"

What is this all about? Where does this language come from?

The final and general resurrection of all, is the so-called "rapture." (John 5:28-29)

And why would "Paul's gospel" be made the standard for any judgment, versus the everlasting Law of God? Does "Paul's gospel" really differ from all of God's revelation to men?

Nang

 

[CabinetMaker]

Even if we grant Barnes' interpretation (which I don't), how does one stop others from judging them? Think about it. Paul deliberately said to let no one do it. Is Paul commanding us to confront people and say, "Hey! It looks like you're sitting in judgment of me. Stop it!" The answer is no. He is rather saying to abstain from any behavior that would give occasion for others to judge you specifically regarding the observance of religious holidays, rituals and ceremonies.

On the contrary, you, by celebrating religious holidays, fall under the passage. You are not seeing to that others cannot judge you with respect to the observance of religious holidays.

Throughout scripture, believers are told to judge with a right judgment, that is, according to God's Word. Judging you for celebrating a religious holiday that the Scriptures forbid is a right judgment, and one that Paul himself makes in this passage and in others. Your "nicer than Christ" approach to judging others is not supported by Scripture.

When Paul warned the Galatians, judging them for observing "days, and months, and times, and years" (Gal 4:10), he even went as far to say, "I am afraid for you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Gal 4:11). According to you and Barnes, and his erroneous interpretation of the Colossians passage, Paul was in violation of his own words in Colossians 2.

Maybe according to Barnes, but not according to the Bible. I'll stake my rewards on the latter.

Not only may I sit in judgment over you for it, but, according to Scripture, I'm obligated to do so.

By the way, contrary to Barnes' view, Romans 14 has nothing to do with Colossians 2. The weak brother in Romans 14 is a believer of Israel, living and functioning in a Body context. Paul is instructing Body saints to be sensitive and accommodating to the sensibilities and aversion of believing Kingdom saints.

So you can choose to ignore the fact that I do not worship God with pagan symbols, assume that I do and then judge me based on your perceptions. I do not think that is what Paul was saying.

 

[Hilston]

So you can choose to ignore the fact that I do not worship God with pagan symbols, ...

Irrelevant. The Bible isn't warning the Body of Christ about worshipping God with pagan symbols. Rather, it warns us about worshipping God with religious symbols of any kind, even ones found in the Mosaic Law. Members of the Body of Christ are not to follow Jesus the way Peter did (Matt. 16:24, i.e., via religious holidays according to the Circumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7), but rather, we are to follow Christ the way Paul did (1Co 11:1, 4:16 i.e., without religious holidays, according to the Uncircumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7).

So you can choose to ignore the fact that I do not worship God with pagan symbols, assume that I do and then judge me based on your perceptions.

Did you even read what I wrote? I'm not assuming you're using pagan symbols. Where are you getting this idea?

I do not think that is what Paul was saying.

It's not open to opinion. The language of the text is clear and unequivocal. You might as well claim that Ed Bouchette was actually saying that the Steelers won yesterday.

Some comments on various related posts by CabinetMaker:

Fine, but what do the symbols we see at Christmas represent today? When we set up a tree are the people setting it up as an act of worship to trees or is it something else?

It is angel worship, according to Colossians (regardless of the kinds of symbols used). And members of the Body of Christ are not under the angelic ministry, as was Israel. That is why we are not to observe religious holidays. To do so is to submit to the authority of the angelic order and denies the Headship of Christ.

Whatever things things were, they are no longer. What they are is of no significance. What is significant is what is in the heart of the person partaking of these customs.

On the contrary, Paul's language is Colossians 2 is not at all limited to "what is in the heart of the person partaking in these customs." Rather, it is all about how things appear to others, and the giving of occasion to others to judge you for celebrating religious holidays.

When you put it that way, I can understand why you do not celebrate Christmas given your history.

But for those who do not share your history, who neither know nor care about the pagan roots of Christmas, is it wrong for them to celebrate Christmas

One's history doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that others can judge them according to religious holidays.

Your response is that of a self-righteous person, a person who is trying to be righteous in God's eyes by making their actions match what they think scripture says about how they should act.

Wow. Is your real name Kreskin? How could you possibly know what motivates Pam Baldwin's behavior? For the record, are you implying that you do NOT make your actions match what you think scriptures say about how you should act? Seriously?

If so, I suggest that you are more concerned with how your actions appear to others than you are about finding out where Christ wants you to be.

Is that what you would say to Paul, who stated emphatically that we are not to allows others to think that we are celebrating religious holidays?

 

[jtvmiiiblythekh1]

Cor

Cor

Also, in 1 Cor 8 that you mention, it also goes with having to understand the way sacrifices were done amongst the Jews and the amongst the pagans. When the Jews would make a burnt/sin offering, all the meat (because the fat, which is claimed unclean) and bones, etc, were burnt up. In idol worship, the big thing was blood in sacrificing, the rest of the carcass would be taken to a butcher shop. So, what a Jew would sacrifice, there would be nothing of it left, what a pagan would sacrifice, there would be remnants left. Now, in further of this, it's talking about eating that leftover meat. It's talking referring to not making a newly converted feel guilty, awful by saying "o, you got that animal from a butcher who received it from a leftover sacrifice that was sacrificed to a false idol. It has nothing to do with what you claim that you can do whatever you want with what is "leftover" of previous paganistic ritual and it not be considered pagan, that's not what the scripture is saying. Again, your interpretation and use of it for justifying keeping of pagan holidays, referred to as an abomination and a slap in Yahweh's face, plus your lack of historical knowledge shows your sad and humorous attempt to keep what you know is wrong in your heart. Yahweh gives commands for days you are to worship, Christmas and Easter are neither and called abominations. Yeshua wasn't even born in the winter. As is well known, Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem for the annual census, which was always done during the Feast of Tabernacle (Feast of Booths - Sukkot). Their "manger" was a Sukkah, which is a tabernacle, booth, dwelling, erected during the Feast of Tabernacles. Also, your history of coloring your easter eggs, comes from the Eastern Orthodox church that used to sacrifice every spring the newborn babies, take their blood and color eggs in worship of Ishtar's birth. To worship these pagan rituals and holidays in Yahweh's and Yeshua's name is again, in their words "an abomination". In Revelations it says that those in the second resurrection who were found " untrustworthy, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those involved with the occult and with drugs, idol-worshipers, and all liars, their destiny is the lake of fire and sulfur, the second death. You may observe christmas, easter, and halloween in His honor, but it is not. These are pagan and He says there is to be no other god before Me".In keeping these non-commanded and condemned holidays, you are worshiping Baal (Tammuz, Bel, Marduk) and Ishtar, even if in Yahweh's name.

 

[Granite]

Hilston, why do you insist on being a Scrooge and wet blanket here every single Christmas?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Irrelevant. The Bible isn't warning the Body of Christ about worshipping God with pagan symbols. Rather, it warns us about worshipping God with religious symbols of any kind, even ones found in the Mosaic Law. Members of the Body of Christ are not to follow Jesus the way Peter did (Matt. 16:24, i.e., via religious holidays according to the Circumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7), but rather, we are to follow Christ the way Paul did (1Co 11:1, 4:16 i.e., without religious holidays, according to the Uncircumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7).

Well that is my point entirely, the trimmings of Christmas are not religious symbols to me, my family and most of the Christians I know. They are decorations that in and of themselves mean nothing.

Did you even read what I wrote? I'm not assuming you're using pagan symbols. Where are you getting this idea?

Because it is what you keep repeating. I have told you repeatedly that the tree is just a tree yet you ignore that and keep insisting that I am worshiping with pagan symbols. I predict that you will ignore it again.

It's not open to opinion. The language of the text is clear and unequivocal. You might as well claim that Ed Bouchette was actually saying that the Steelers won yesterday.

Obviously your statement is incorrect. You see what Paul said as a restriction against things while I see what Paul said as an affirmation of my freedom in Christ. So should I bind my self to the law as Hilston sees it or should I live in the freedom of Christ?

Some comments on various related posts by CabinetMaker:

It is angel worship, according to Colossians (regardless of the kinds of symbols used). And members of the Body of Christ are not under the angelic ministry, as was Israel. That is why we are not to observe religious holidays. To do so is to submit to the authority of the angelic order and denies the Headship of Christ.

See, once again you are claiming that I am engaging of worship to God by setting up a tree. You claim that it is some form of angle worship. It is not now nor has it ever been an act of worship for me to set up a tree.

On the contrary, Paul's language is Colossians 2 is not at all limited to "what is in the heart of the person partaking in these customs." Rather, it is all about how things appear to others, and the giving of occasion to others to judge you for celebrating religious holidays.

I know how it appears to you so I would not invite you to my home to share Christmas dinner as it might cause you to stumble and that is not a good thing. However, there are a great many other of my Christian friends that I can invite to dinner because they know that the worship of God takes place around the dinner table where we have gathered in His name.

One's history doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that others can judge them according to religious holidays.

You are one of the few people I know that holds to the idea of once a pagan symbol, always a pagan symbol. Most of the people today see things such as trees and Santa and holy and the like as the secular celebration of Christmas. You never hear atheists complaining about Christmas trees on public lands though they should if those trees were truly pagan religious symbols.

Wow. Is your real name Kreskin? How could you possibly know what motivates Pam Baldwin's behavior? For the record, are you implying that you do NOT make your actions match what you think scriptures say about how you should act? Seriously?

You should note that I did not accuse her of being self-righteous but offered it as an observation based on a series of posts on an internet forum. Her subsequent response dealt very eloquently with my observation and she showed that I was wrong about her motivations.

As to my actions, I do not try to act as I think scripture wants me to act. I try to keep my heart open to Christ and be and do what He wants me to be and do. Sometimes that means I might hang out with a very un-Christian crowd that would make people thing I am not a Christian either. But then Paul and Christ both ate meals with sinners and the Pharisees hated it. Peoples perceptions are less important than doing what Christ wants me to do.

Is that what you would say to Paul, who stated emphatically that we are not to allows others to think that we are celebrating religious holidays?

I would like to have that conversation.

 

[Hilston]

Hilston, why do you insist on being a Scrooge and wet blanket here every single Christmas?

The same reason why a pro-life demonstrator insists on being a wet blanket at every pro-choice rally: Because it is against God's law.

 

[Granite]

The same reason why a pro-life demonstrator insists on being a wet blanket at every pro-choice rally: Because it is against God's law.

...or because you, and the kind of Christian you represent, try to make people as unhappy as you are this time of year. I've never understood how downright miserable (and eager to share their misery) certain Christians can be at this time of year.

 

[Hilston]

...or because you, and the kind of Christian you represent, ...

Newsflash, Granite. I'm not a Christian.

... try to make people as unhappy as you are this time of year.

Well, actually my goal is to make everyone miserable, depressed and hopeless, except for me. I enjoy winter, I enjoy the lights, I even enjoy some of the music (just not the religious stuff), and the more miserable and despondent I can make everybody else, the happier I am. I get downright giddy whenever I see poor children going without food. "More flies! Put more flies on her face!" I shout, guffawing at the top of my lungs, whenever those third-world hunger commercials are aired on the TV.

I've never understood how downright miserable (and eager to share their misery) certain Christians can be at this time of year.

That's because you haven't really tried. Maybe you should turn over a new leaf, come over to the Dark Side (we have cookies; just not the Christ-mass kind), and spread a nice big chunk of misery, drizzled in sadness, with a healthy side-portion of bah humbug. You'll be surprised at how much fun it is.

 

[Hilston]

A reply to CabinetMaker from his post several days ago:

The Bible isn't warning the Body of Christ about worshipping God with pagan symbols. Rather, it warns us about worshipping God with religious symbols of any kind, even ones found in the Mosaic Law. Members of the Body of Christ are not to follow Jesus the way Peter did (Matt. 16:24, i.e., via religious holidays according to the Circumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7), but rather, we are to follow Christ the way Paul did (1Co 11:1, 4:16 i.e., without religious holidays, according to the Uncircumcision Gospel, Gal 2:7).

Well that is my point entirely, the trimmings of Christmas are not religious symbols to me, my family and most of the Christians I know. They are decorations ...

Do you even hear how ridiculous you sound? If they have no meaning, then why do you decorate with them? Why do you observe Dec. 25 and not some other day? Regardless of what you say, the decorations, the day itself, all of your behavior on that day, represent something. They have meaning, otherwise you wouldn't do them. Only insane people go to so much effort and spend so much time doing things that are meaningless.

that in and of themselves mean nothing.

That's the nature of symbols, Einstein! That's why they're symbols! Clearly you haven't given this adequate reflection, otherwise you wouldn't be making such asinine comment. Think about it, CM, in and of itself, killing and burning a lamb is a meaningless waste of time and resources. But add to it the notion of sacrifice and sin, and it becomes meaningful in the extreme. Also, no one was worshiping the animal, contrary to your repeated and absolutely baffling insistence that they were. Are you an Open Theist? Having that poison floating around in your mind would explain why you can't seem to connect the dots and put two and two together.

Did you even read what I wrote? I'm not assuming you're using pagan symbols. Where are you getting this idea?

Because it is what you keep repeating.

You're delusional. Seriously, bro. What is going on in that noggin of yours? Never once, not a single time, never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever (ever) have I claimed (let alone "keep repeating") that pagan symbols, or the worship thereof, were of any legitimate biblical concern. Yet you persist. Are you on some kind of medication? Is English not your first language? Please, give me some good reason to think that you're not just an delusional idiot.

I have told you repeatedly that the tree is just a tree yet you ignore that and keep insisting that I am worshiping with pagan symbols. I predict that you will ignore it again.

You are HILARIOUS! I can't wait to talk to my friends about this.

Me: "I'm serious. This guy on TOL can't get it through his head that it has nothing to do with 'worshiping with pagan symbols.' I've never once said it, yet he goes on and on denying it."
They: "Seriously? He sounds like a ..."
Me: "Hey; don't be unkind. Maybe he was just tired and wasn''t thinking straight."
They: "Or maybe he's just a ..."
Me: "Hey! I said be nice.
They: ...
Me: ...
They: ...
Me: "Ok, maybe he IS a ..."
(Laughter all around)​

It's not open to opinion. The language of the text is clear and unequivocal. You might as well claim that Ed Bouchette was actually saying that the Steelers won yesterday.

Obviously your statement is incorrect. You see what Paul said as a restriction against things while I see what Paul said as an affirmation of my freedom in Christ. So should I bind my self to the law as Hilston sees it or should I live in the freedom of Christ?

Try to get this, CM. Your freedom in Christ doesn't give you permission to break God's law.

"Hello Officer. Yeah, sorry about the neighbors having to call you. It was probably all that screaming. Now, Officer, I realize I've made quite a mess. And I know this looks pretty bad, what with all this blood everywhere. But, you see, the Bible says I have freedom in Christ. So if you'll allow me to finish, I'll have all this blood sopped up in no time and be able to dispose of the body parts, just in time to bake me up some Crunchy Pita Pizza Puffs before the game starts. Ok? Thanks. Now where did I put those garbage bags?"​

It is angel worship, according to Colossians (regardless of the kinds of symbols used). And members of the Body of Christ are not under the angelic ministry, as was Israel. That is why we are not to observe religious holidays. To do so is to submit to the authority of the angelic order and denies the Headship of Christ.

See, once again you are claiming that I am engaging of worship to God by setting up a tree.

Um. No. Paul is claiming that religious holiday observance is angel worship. Paul is saying it. Not Hilston. Paul. (Paul). The guy in the Bible. Not the guy sitting here at his computer. The scripture writer formerly known as Saul. Not Hilston. Paul. Yes, that guy who is written about in Acts, and wrote a good portion of the Greek scriptures. Not the guy who writes for a Pennsylvania newspaper. Paul. Not Hilston. Paul. (Paul).

You claim that it is some form of angle worship. It is not now nor has it ever been an act of worship for me to set up a tree.

Nor have I said so. Neither did Paul say so. So it looks like you're safe. Oh wait, except for that part that it's a religious holiday. If you don't think it is, ask Richard Dawkins what he thinks about it. Ask Nina Totenberg of NPR why she said, "And I was at – forgive the expression – a Christmas party ..."" Ask all the evangelicals who get their proverbial knickers in a bunch because so many secularists want to change the name to "Sparkle Season."

On the contrary, Paul's language is Colossians 2 is not at all limited to "what is in the heart of the person partaking in these customs." Rather, it is all about how things appear to others, and the giving of occasion to others to judge you for celebrating religious holidays.

I know how it appears to you so I would not invite you to my home to share Christmas dinner as it might cause you to stumble and that is not a good thing.

Another one bites the Romans 14 dust. Romans 14 isn't about causing other members of the Body of Christ to stumble, CM. It's about Kingdom believers (who were formerly forbidden to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols) living amid Body program believers who had no qualms (and rightly so) about eating it.

However, there are a great many other of my Christian friends that I can invite to dinner because they know that the worship of God takes place around the dinner table where we have gathered in His name.

See what I mean? Religious holiday. A religious feast. Exactly the sort of thing Paul warned against. Exactly.

You are one of the few people I know that holds to the idea of once a pagan symbol, always a pagan symbol.

:darwinsm:Haaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!!! :darwinsm:Haaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa!!! :darwinsm:Haaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha. ... Ha. Ha. ... Huh ... Hmm. :yawn: Well. That felt good. By the way, I actually use the word "Wednesday." Yes, I know. It's named after the Norse God, Odin. What a hypocrite I am.

Most of the people today see things such as trees and Santa and holy and the like as the secular celebration of Christmas. You never hear atheists complaining about Christmas trees on public lands though they should if those trees were truly pagan religious symbols.

Really? Do you live on an island somewhere? Do you ever make it to the mainland during Christ-mass-time? Do you really not see that it's more than a tree? It's decorated and festooned with religious symbols. Angels. Stars. Doves. Candles. Lights. Ornaments with pictures of Jesus, baby Jesus, Santa and Jesus. Ornaments depicting Bible verses, angels, nativity scenes. Nativity dioramas in front of or under Christmas trees. It's not just a tree.
Here are some links that expound the symbolisms of the Christmas tree:
"Non-Christians Lost the Religious Symbols Battle"
"The Christian Symbolism of the Christmas Tree"
"Christmas Decorations Explained: The Christian Symbolism of Decorations"

And here are some links about atheists upset about Christmas trees:
"Christmas Tree Controversy"
"[Atheists Oppose] Redesignation of State Holiday Tree as a Christmas Tree"
"Calif. Official Orders Removal of Christmas Angel"
"Ban On Angels, Stars On County Christmas Trees"

So much for the claim that Christ-mass isn't religious and that atheists don't complain about Christ-mass trees.

For the record, are you implying that you do NOT make your actions match what you think scriptures say about how you should act? Seriously?

As to my actions, I do not try to act as I think scripture wants me to act.

I need to pause to soak that in. You do not try to act as scripture wants you to act. Ok. Got it.

I try to keep my heart open to Christ and be and do what He wants me to be and do.

Oh, I see. So what Christ wants you to be and do might contradict Scripture, and we certainly wouldn't want to go against Christ. I mean, if Jesus says to do "A," and the Scriptures say to do "B," then Scriptures be darned (all the way to heck), because what Jesus wants is more important that what the Scriptures say, right? :kookoo:

 

[chatmaggot]

...He is rather saying to abstain from any behavior that would give occasion for others to judge you specifically regarding the observance of religious holidays, rituals and ceremonies.

It seems you are interpreting the Colossians 2 passage...

So let no one judge you...regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,...

...to mean don't celebrate any religious Holiday so as to not give people the opportunity to judge you (specifically in regards to holy days). You promote the nonobservance of any religious holiday and by ones nonobservance, no one can judge you as a result

Does the interpretation hold true for the rest of the verse in Colossians?

So let no one judge you in food or in drink,...,

To mean that people should not eat or drink anything because in doing so it might give people the opportunity to judge what one is eating or drinking?

Or just don't eat or drink anything that pertains to a religious holiday (i.e. gingerbread cookies) because by doing so that would give people the opportunity to judge you in what you are eating?

 

[Granite]

Newsflash, Granite. I'm not a Christian.

Which makes your shtick here an even bigger waste of time than I thought. Get over yourself.

Well, actually my goal is to make everyone miserable, depressed and hopeless, except for me. I enjoy winter, I enjoy the lights, I even enjoy some of the music (just not the religious stuff), and the more miserable and despondent I can make everybody else, the happier I am. I get downright giddy whenever I see poor children going without food. "More flies! Put more flies on her face!" I shout, guffawing at the top of my lungs, whenever those third-world hunger commercials are aired on the TV.

Sarcasm without any humor is one of the worst and most pathetic things in the world. Whatever you think you're doing on TOL, you've quickly become one of the most boring and unpleasant characters here.

 

[Hilston]

Which makes your shtick here an even bigger waste of time than I thought. Get over yourself.

Oh sure, that's easy for you to say. I wish I could get over myself, but it's all I ever think about. And just when it might appear that I've been sufficiently distracted by something other than myself, people like yourself chime in and make it all about me all over again. What's a self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian to do?

Sarcasm without any humor is one of the worst and most pathetic things in the world.

I know, right? Not only am I a self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian, but I'm unfunny and pathetic as well. Oh my; it's suddenly become about me again.

Whatever you think you're doing on TOL, you've quickly become one of the most boring and unpleasant characters here.

Quickly? You give me too much credit. I've been on TOL since the 90s. So it's taken me more than a decade to become a boring, unpleasant, self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian.

 

[Shasta]

Self-centered, me-obsessed? If you were going to talk about ME then you should have at least had the decency to notify me of this discussion.

EGOTIST, n.
A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me
(Devil's Dictionary)

Oh sure, that's easy for you to say. I wish I could get over myself, but it's all I ever think about. And just when it might appear that I've been sufficiently distracted by something other than myself, people like yourself chime in and make it all about me all over again. What's a self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian to do?

I know, right? Not only am I a self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian, but I'm unfunny and pathetic as well. Oh my; it's suddenly become about me again.

Quickly? You give me too much credit. I've been on TOL since the 90s. So it's taken me more than a decade to become a boring, unpleasant, self-centered, me-obsessed, big-waste-of-time non-Christian.

 

[Hilston]

EGOTIST, n.
A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me
(Devil's Dictionary)

Ambrose Bierce is one of my favorite satirists. His definition of "Decide" is genius.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

...or because you, and the kind of Christian you represent, try to make people as unhappy as you are this time of year. I've never understood how downright miserable (and eager to share their misery) certain Christians can be at this time of year.

Yeah, Hilston does look miserable in that avatar of his.

 

[Lon]

I don't believe any of the symbols of Christmas are pagan or religious. Why?
Regardless of what any historian happens to research, there is absolutely no connect whatsover. Whatever reason a druid decorated a tree for a few hundred years ago is not the reason anybody (that I'm aware of) puts up a tree.

- Putting up a flag is not religious, it's political.
- Putting up a green shamrock isn't religious, it's national.
- Putting out a pumpkin isn't religious, its a craft item and advertisement for candy.
-Putting up a tree isn't religious, it's a project to keep kids busy and looks pretty with lights.
-A snowman is simply to scare away crows from the carrot.
-An igloo is fun, but not very warm without a bit of burning whale blubber.
-Making a fruit cake isn't religious, it is about making something that can be passed around for the next ten years.
--All this is about as pagan or religious as making toast...

If a tree bothers you, do some other project with the kids that'll keep them busy while off school. If you don't want to give your kids presents, somehow emulating gifts from the wisemen, or remembering a guy who gave kids carved toys, named Saint Nicholas, or simply because; give wherever you like, or not.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

I don't believe any of the symbols of Christmas are pagan or religious. Why?
Regardless of what any historian happens to research, there is absolutely no connect whatsover. Whatever reason a druid decorated a tree for a few hundred years ago is not the reason anybody (that I'm aware of) puts up a tree.

Seriously, that's not the point. I read where Hilston has said this over and over and over,..... and over and over again. What or where the symbols came from (even though, as Hilston pointed out...yes, over and over and over....and a few more overs, that is not the crux of the matter.Symbols represent something.....so since they are christmas symbols, wouldn't they represent christmas?) They are now set aside to celebrate a religious event....please don't tell me now that celebrating Jesus' birth is not a religious event....

- Putting up a flag is not religious, it's political.
- Putting up a green shamrock isn't religious, it's national.
- Putting out a pumpkin isn't religious, its a craft item and advertisement for candy.
-Putting up a tree isn't religious, it's a project to keep kids busy and looks pretty with lights.
-A snowman is simply to scare away crows from the carrot.
-An igloo is fun, but not very warm without a bit of burning whale blubber.
-Making a fruit cake isn't religious, it is about making something that can be passed around for the next ten years.
--All this is about as pagan or religious as making toast...

But IF you decided to do any of the above for a religious purpose, that would be wrong......

If you put a flag up declaring that "God is good"....and we will now meditate on that phrase every third Tuesday of every third month:
That's a violation of Body Hope

If you put up a green shamrock as part of your christmas "thankfulness":
That's now a violation of Body Hope

If you decided that putting out a pumpkin to advertise candy because God will honor that more so then NOT putting out a pumpkin to generate business:
You've now violated Body Hope

If you put up a tree to decorate to keep the kids busy....as part of the christmas observances, :
You've violated Body Hope
.......and for the record, you are really stretching this saying it keeps the kids busy....what do you do in the summer ? Getting the tree out then? ARe your kids that needy to be entertained? What about when the kids are gone, are you going to forget about the tree?

So, anyway, maybe you get the idea now...it isn't the object or the symbol...it is the making it a religious observance that is wrong.

Lon, I use those pretty "christmas" lights throughout the year, to decorate for birthdays. Why? Because it is not the lights from christmas that are wrong, it's the observance of the day.

If a tree bothers you, do some other project with the kids that'll keep them busy while off school. If you don't want to give your kids presents, somehow emulating gifts from the wisemen, or remembering a guy who gave kids carved toys, named Saint Nicholas, or simply because; give wherever you like, or not.

lain: Why do people think that if one doesn't do christmas, their children are giftless, toyless neglected children?