The Pagan Christmas Tree is OK

[Granite]

I think you've missed my point. If Dec. 25th is the re-birth of the sun, it seems the appropriate time to celebrate the birth of the Savior. Christmas, Advent, is about hope.

Oh, gotcha. That makes sense.

While your disdain for Christianity is well noted, you needn't spill your vitriol onto me.

No vitriol intended! Actually I thought were getting along civily enough...

Some Christians may have good reason to believe that Christ was born on Dec. 25th.

Well, then they're ignorant. :idunno:

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is what they were. What are they now?

So, how long has the Church been celebrating Christmas? With the exception of a few years during the Puritan period when a portion of the Church decided the pagan festival was just that—pagan, the Church has been in step with culture and its celebrations from the Saturnalia blend of the first few centuries AD, to the drunken debauchery of the Middle Ages, to the celebration of consumerism and hedonism today.
(source)​

 

[Cracked]

Many of the most popular Christmas customs – including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus – are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

Many who are excitedly preparing for their Christmas celebrations would prefer not knowing about the holiday’s real significance. If they do know the history, they often object that their celebration has nothing to do with the holiday’s monstrous history and meaning. “We are just having fun.” (source)​

Check the source for more detailed information on the origins of Christmas customs.

Is it really worth it?

Who doesn't know this that knows anything about their faith? Oh my, pagan customs - Oh noes!

If you celebrate ancient, dead religious rights utilizing these customs as a Christian then, yes, you've got some problems. Personally, I do not.

I even take my kids Trick or Treating *gasp*!
I even call the 3rd month March *gasp*!
I even call the second day of the week Monday *gasp*!

If you'd like to live your life free from pagan influence, good luck to you. Perhaps, it makes more sense to simply do all things for the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31).

 

[Cracked]

No vitriol intended! Actually I thought were getting along civily enough...

Alright. I was taken back by the "demented" comment. :cheers:

 

[Pam Baldwin]

Okay, you lost me. Are you under some kind of law from God?

You are correct that the Body of Christ is not under the Law.

Eph.2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

That does not mean, however, that we are "free" to do anyhting that we wish...or don't wish.

1 Thes 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1Tim.1:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.


Paul's epistles tell us what we are to do and how we are to act. But it is in no way the Mosaic Law. I just want to make sure that no one thinks that I promote antinomianism.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So, how long has the Church been celebrating Christmas? With the exception of a few years during the Puritan period when a portion of the Church decided the pagan festival was just that—pagan, the Church has been in step with culture and its celebrations from the Saturnalia blend of the first few centuries AD, to the drunken debauchery of the Middle Ages, to the celebration of consumerism and hedonism today.
(source)​

Fine, but what do the symbols we see at Christmas represent today? When we set up a tree are the people setting it up as an act of worship to trees or is it something else?

Is kissing under the mistletoe a celebration of the death of Balder or an excuse to kiss your sweetie?

Are Christmas gifts compelled or are they simply exchanged today?

Santa is the one Christmas symbol that maybe most closely resembles "The Grandmother" usurped by St. Nickolas. For all that Santa represents in terms of American consumerism, I do not think that you will find anybody who worships him. So even Santa no longer represents a pagan deity.

Whatever things things were, they are no longer. What they are is of no significance. What is significant is what is in the heart of the person partaking of these customs.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

This "Line of Evidence" does not address whether celebrating Christmas is a doctrine or commandment of men, but assumes that anyone saying not to celebrate Christmas is creating a commandment or doctrine of men. Both celebrating Christmas and saying Christmas should not be celebrated appear to be doctrines and commandments of men. From this, it can be concluded that this "Line of Evidence" does not say either way whether to celebrate Christmas or not.

Are there going to be commands on every scenario that comes up in life?
No.

Do you think that there are "commands" in Scripture that we are to apply to life?

 

[CabinetMaker]

You are correct that the Body of Christ is not under the Law.

Eph.2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Gal. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

That does not mean, however, that we are "free" to do anyhting that we wish...or don't wish.

1 Thes 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1Tim.1:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.


Paul's epistles tell us what we are to do and how we are to act. But it is in no way the Mosaic Law. I just want to make sure that no one thinks that I promote antinomianism.

So are your actions dictated by adherence to what Paul says we should or should not do or are your actions motivated by something else.

The Believer’s Freedom

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]
27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God!

 

[Pam Baldwin]

Are there any God ordained worship practices for Christians?
Why should or shouldn't Christians use pagan worship practices when worshipping the LORD God?

No. No worship practices. This would violate the same prohibition that "christmas" falls under: no holy days, no rituals, no "special" items, times set aside for religious purposes.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Whatever things things were, they are no longer. What they are is of no significance. What is significant is what is in the heart of the person partaking of these customs.

When I was a child I celebrated Christmas with my family.
As an adult, I practiced paganism for a while before repenting and turning back to God.

Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as an ignorant child.
Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as a pagan.

Partaking of Christmas customs is not OK for me now.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

So are your actions dictated by adherence to what Paul says we should or should not do or are your actions motivated by something else.

Well, that's a loaded question.:grizzly:
Since I still do have my sin nature, all my actions are not sinless. Sometimes my motivation is not according to Scripture, but my own sinfulness.

Paul was and is our example. But that's Scripture....so my actions, I hope for the most part, are dictated by Scripture....by applying the Body Scripture to myself.

Whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God!

I'm sorry, CabinetMaker, but to say that "all" here means all of everything everywhere everytime is a bit ridiculous.....I can't directly disobey Scripture and do it for His glory......

 

[Pam Baldwin]

When I was a child I celebrated Christmas with my family.
As an adult, I practiced paganism for a while before repenting and turning back to God.

Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as an ignorant child.
Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as a pagan.

Partaking of Christmas customs is not OK for me now.

Partaking of christmas is not okay for me now...but for different reasons.

 

[CabinetMaker]

When I was a child I celebrated Christmas with my family.
As an adult, I practiced paganism for a while before repenting and turning back to God.

Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as an ignorant child.
Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as a pagan.

Partaking of Christmas customs is not OK for me now.

When you put it that way, I can understand why you do not celebrate Christmas given your history.

But for those who do not share your history, who neither know nor care about the pagan roots of Christmas, is it wrong for them to celebrate Christmas?

 

[genuineoriginal]

When you put it that way, I can understand why you do not celebrate Christmas given your history.

But for those who do not share your history, who neither know nor care about the pagan roots of Christmas, is it wrong for them to celebrate Christmas?

Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as an ignorant child.

I am not ignorant now, are you?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well, that's a loaded question.:grizzly:
Since I still do have my sin nature, all my actions are not sinless. Sometimes my motivation is not according to Scripture, but my own sinfulness.

Paul was and is our example. But that's Scripture....so my actions, I hope for the most part, are dictated by Scripture....by applying the Body Scripture to myself.



I'm sorry, CabinetMaker, but to say that "all" here means all of everything everywhere everytime is a bit ridiculous.....I can't directly disobey Scripture and do it for His glory......

This is going to sound harsh and I am sorry for that.

Your response is that of a self-righteous person, a person who is trying to be righteous in God's eyes by making their actions match what they think scripture says about how they should act. You are resting in your actions in Christ. Do you ever have days where you think that you were just not good enough? If so, I suggest that you are more concerned with how your actions appear to others than you are about finding out where Christ wants you to be.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Celebrating Christmas was OK for me as an ignorant child.

I am not ignorant now, are you?

No. But I am mature enough to know that a tree is just a tree.

 

[genuineoriginal]

No. But I am mature enough to know that a tree is just a tree.

And a date is just a date.

So, why that tree on that date? :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

And a date is just a date.

So, why that tree on that date? :think:

The simplest answer is why not. The Catholic church usurped a pagan holiday to convert pagans to Christians. With the passage of time, what had been pagan rituals lost their original meaning and became Christmas traditions. Traditions that have lost all religious meaning to all but those who insist on restoring their original pagan significance.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The simplest answer is why not. The Catholic church usurped a pagan holiday to convert pagans to Christians. With the passage of time, what had been pagan rituals lost their original meaning and became Christmas traditions. Traditions that have lost all religious meaning to all but those who insist on restoring their original pagan significance.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ​

 

[Pam Baldwin]

This is going to sound harsh and I am sorry for that.

Your response is that of a self-righteous person, a person who is trying to be righteous in God's eyes by making their actions match what they think scripture says about how they should act. You are resting in your actions in Christ. Do you ever have days where you think that you were just not good enough? If so, I suggest that you are more concerned with how your actions appear to others than you are about finding out where Christ wants you to be.

That wasn't too harsh

You misunderstand me. It is Christ's righteousness that I stand in. I have none of my own. Even my "good deeds" would be filthy rags, dung, to God....my flesh.
I am saved by Him, and I would have never even "chosen" Him in my sinful heart.....I am eternally grateful that He loved me and died for me.

Part of my Hope is that I am being conformed into Christ's image. My salvation is sure, I don't worry about earning or keeping my salvation. It's a done deal.
I don't have any such days as thinking that I am not good enough....BTW, good enough for what? I know that I was never good enough to merit salvation.