The Left has become dangerously unhinged.

[Stripe]

I would.

But you're going to whine incessantly when I call it your idea.

Sounds like you want something to talk about other than where you've been challenged.

1. Jesus applied the law.
2. The Bible uses "witnesses" that do not have to be people.

In both lines of discussion, you refuse to acknowledge what scripture clearly teaches, while you equivocate over "fulfilled" and "eradicated."
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[Town Heretic]

So I went to the Jewish virtual library to supplement this gentile's understanding of a side bar here on witness.

WITNESS (Heb. עֵד, one that has personal knowledge of an event or a fact. The evidence of at least two witnesses was required for convicting the accused (Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15; cf. I Kings 21:10, 13). Commercial transactions of importance took place in the presence of witnesses at the gate of the town (Gen. 23; Ruth 4); when a document was drawn up, it was signed by witnesses (Jer. 32: 12). The witness of a grave offence, such as enticement to idolatry, was bound by law to expose the offender; if the penalty for the crime was stoning, the witness was obliged to throw the first stone (Deut. 13:7ff.; cf. Lev. 24:11; Num. 15:33). False testimony is banned (Ex. 20:14 [16]; 23:1; Deut. 5:17 [20]; cf. Prov. 6:19; 14:25, et al.). The convicted false witness bears the penalty that would have been inflicted upon the accused (Deut. 19:16–21; cf. Sus. 60–62; Jos., Ant. 4:219; Code of Hammurapi, 1–4-Pritchard, Texts, 166).


A curse could be publicly uttered against a witness who withholds testimony (Lev. 5:1; Prov. 29:24; cf. Judg. 17:2). Lasting inanimate objects, such as stones (Gen. 31:48), the moon (Ps. 89:38), or poems can be invoked as witnesses: "Therefore, write down this poem and teach it to the people of Israel; put it in their mouths, in order that this poem may be my witness against the people of Israel" (Deut. 31:19; cf. vs 21, 26). The Lord Himself is sometimes called upon as witness (Gen. 31:50; Mal. 2:14), or as a prosecuting witness (I Sam. 12:5; Jer. 29:23; 49:5; Micah 1:2; Mal. 3:5). By its very existence, Israel is a witness of the fact that God is Redeemer and Lord of history (Isa. 43:9–10; 44:6–9). There is nothing in biblical law concerning the qualification of witnesses, but, according to Josephus, the credibility of the witnesses is established by their past life, while neither women nor slaves were allowed to testify (Jos., Ant. 4:219).

Witnesses appears to mean people, not physical evidence. Now documents can be entered into evidence, at least in civil matters.

Jewish law distinguishes between attesting and testifying witnesses. The former are required to be present at, and then and there attest, formal legal acts which failing such attestation, are normally invalid; the latter are required to testify in court, either to an act previously attested by them or to any fact they have witnessed. The rules on competency (see below) apply to testifying witnesses only. a document duly attested by at least two attesting witnesses and confirmed by the court (see Sh. Ar., ḤM 46:7–8) is admitted as evidence and equivalent to oral testimony in civil cases, and need not be proved by testifying witnesses (Sh. Ar., ḤM 28:12).


The distinction between testifying and attesting witnesses has practical significance also for purposes of modern Israel law. While the validity of an act governed by Jewish law (e.g., marriage or divorce) may depend on the competency under Jewish law of the attesting witnesses, which will have to be determined according to Jewish law, the competency of testifying witnesses, even concerning acts governed by Jewish law, will always be determined by the law of the court (lex fori) in which the evidence is taken.

On the two witness rule:

THE TWO-WITNESSES RULE

As a general rule, no single witness alone is competent to attest or testify: there must always be at least two (Deut. 19:15; Sif. Deut. 188; Sot. 2b; Sanh. 30a; Yad, Edut 5:1). The following are some of several exceptions to the general rule: whenever two testifying witnesses would be sufficient to prove a claim, one is sufficient to require the defendant to take an *oath that the claim is unfounded (Shev. 40a; Ket. 87b; BM 3b–4a; Yad, To'en 1:1); thus, in the case of widow claiming on her ketubbah or the holder of a bill claiming on it, where a single witness has testified that the claim had already been settled, the interested party will be required to take the oath before being allowed to recover (Ket. 9:7; Sh. Ar., ḤM 84:5). Conversely, a party who has partly admitted a claim will be excused from taking the oath if he is corroborated by at least a single witness (Rema ḤM 87:6; Beit Yosef ḤM 75 n. 3); and the testimony of a single depositary who still held the deposit was considered sufficient to prove which of the rival claims to a deposit was valid (Git. 64a; Sh. Ar., ḤM 56:1). A woman is allowed to remarry on the testimony of a single witness that her husband is dead (Yev. 16:7; Eduy. 6:1, 8:5; Ber. 27a; Ket. 22b–23a); and the testimony of a single witness is normally sufficient in matters of ritual (Git. 2b–3a; Yad, Edut 11:7). In criminal cases, both witnesses must have witnessed the whole event together (cf. Mak. 1:9), but in civil cases, testimonies of various witnesses to particular facts, as well as a witness and a document, may be combined to satisfy the two-witnesses rule (Sh. Ar., ḤM 30:6).

And also, on the treatment:

The biblical injunction, "thou shalt then inquire and make search and ask diligently" (Deut. 13:15), was literally interpreted to require testifying witnesses to be subjected to three different kinds of examination: enquiry (ḥakirah), investigation (derishah), and interrogation (bedikah; Sanh. 40a). Originally, the rule was held to apply in all cases, both civil and criminal (Sanh. 4:1), but it was later relaxed to apply in criminal cases only, and possibly in cases of tort, so as not to render the recovery of debts too cumbersome and thus "shut the doors before borrowers" (Sanh. 3a, 32a; Yev. 122b; Yad, Edut 3:1; Sh. Ar., ḤM 30:1)

Interesting stuff.

 

[Stripe]

I went to the Jewish virtual library.

We know why you went there instead of to scripture.

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[Town Heretic]

But you're going to whine incessantly when I call it your idea.

Rather, I'm going to note it really isn't any more than the alphabet was my idea and the whining remark just makes my point about your presence and focus.

Sounds like you want something to talk about other than where you've been challenged.

Rather, it sounds like you're more interested in talking about me, which isn't surprising.

In both lines of discussion, you refuse to acknowledge what scripture clearly teaches, while you equivocate over "fulfilled" and "eradicated."

Nah. That's just you throwing sand and saying something is on fire, again.

 

[Town Heretic]

We know why you went there instead of to scripture.

Because it moves it from a he said/the other guy said exegesis of Duet. or Leviticus, and I've commented on what you and JR are doing there, to an independent authority. One you couldn't have read in the time between my posting it and your rushing to make a bigger doofus out of yourself by continuing to go at the messenger angle.

 

[Stripe]

Because it moves it from a he said/the other guy said exegesis of Duet. or Leviticus, and I've commented on what you and JR are doing there, to an independent authority.

Great.

So you can read that site and see that the Bible doesn't call for eyewitnesses to a crime in order to convict.

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[Stripe]

One you couldn't have read in the time between my posting it and your [response].

I read it just fine. :idunno:

You must be descended from a line of slow readers. :chuckle:

Also, I know what the Bible says. There are numerous passages that show eyewitnesses are not necessary.

Heck, some of them have been shown to you. Thus, your site is superfluous to requirements.

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[Arthur Brain]

No, I don't think God is happy when innocent people are killed. But I also think that He's less unhappy when a mistake is made in the process of enforcing justice than He is when people are just processed through a system where there is little to no justice at all being dealt to criminals, because at least with the former, His statutes are being upheld, whereas with the latter, His statutes are completely ignored, and "everyone does what is right in his own eyes."

If God abhors the shedding of innocent blood then why put a 'grading system' on it? You think God would be less unhappy if someone's wrongfully executed where their innocence could have been established through appeal?

God wants as few innocent people killed as possible. If the system is regularly allowing criminals to go free on technicalities or through loopholes or because there aren't enough resources to actually determine who the criminal is let alone catch him, then the system is inherently broken, and should not be fixed, but instead replaced with one that does work and works well, at least well enough that crime is not as prevalent.

The system isn't "inherently broken" your hyperbole notwithstanding.

And yet, the article I provided says otherwise. Would you like me to show you the FBI data on how many criminals are let go or acquitted due to various reasons? It's probably a lot higher than 0-5%.

Go for it.

Which just means you support it to some extent.

I oppose the system entirely, I don't support it at all. It should be replaced completely because it is inherently broken. You can't put new wine in old wineskins.

Sure, it's not like people are arrested on a whim and the police are the equivalent of the keystone cops. Like any system it's not perfect and I support certain changes but you make it sound like it's useless and there's nothing to support that on any objective level.

So then why support it at all?

See above.

So what makes your standards for punishments better than God's? Are you trying to be nicer than He is?

I'm not an OT legalist for a start and the primary reason is to avoid innocent people being wrongfully convicted and put to death.

You're right. I was being too generous with my estimates.

Crime would drop to virtually zero overnight.

And my system would reduce crime because it would deter criminals, not try to prevent their crimes.

You are now just impossible to take even remotely seriously. Crime wouldn't drop to virtually zero overnight, the following fortnight or ten years down the line. You simply don't live in the real world.

Restitution is a deterrent. Corporal punishment is a deterrent. (Eg, caning in Singapore.) Execution is a strong deterrent when enforced properly. (Here in America, it's not a deterrent because it's not enforced quickly, and even when criminals are executed, the people have long since forgotten what crime he committed to deserve such a punishment.

You think prison is an incentive?

:rain:

Because it's an argument against your position.

I don't just brush off your arguments, could you extend the same courtesy to me and not brush off mine?

It wasn't an argument, it was just yet more subjective, hot air in lieu of support.

Those who have been exonerated or let go after being put in prison for their punishment, how many of them really did commit the crime and were able to be freed based on technicalities or lack of evidence (which is only an issue in an "absolute/irrefutable proof" system, I might point out), or even because he made a convincing argument to the one he appeals to? How long did it take?

What about those truly innocent people who made a deal or settled when they should have maintained that they were innocent? (This is an important question that I address below.)

I don't expect any answers to those questions, but in my system, the criminal (if he isn't executed for the crime) is punished swiftly and painfully, and then it's over with, and he can move on with his life, and not waste his time locked up in some cell in some giant building out in the middle of nowhere. Instead of being a burden on society, forcing them to pay for his internment, he's a productive member of society again.

If people have been exonerated of a crime they've been convicted of then I wager it's generally because evidence has come to light that proves their innocence. Courts aren't in the habit of overturning verdicts for a laugh. Under your "system" that couldn't happen because they'd be dead.

lain:

Now, this question I would like answered:

How many of the people who were exonerated after the sentence had been handed down would not have been even considered had there been more resources available to look for evidence or the real criminal, and/or if there had been more evidence available at the time of the trial, would have been deemed innocent at the time of the trial, and not been punished for something they didn't do in the first place?

Dude, it's not like there's a dearth of police or resources available. The fact is that mistakes can be made and in cases there's evidence that points to guilt that can later turn out to be falsified when further evidence comes to light. That's gonna happen under any system and if you're going to speed up the trial and conviction process then even more so.

Either way, evidence is evidence. And all evidence is a witness, just as eyewitnesses are witnesses. And since two or three witnesses is the standard for determining something according to God, who is just and righteous (and is Himself triune (which makes Him three strong witnesses)), therefore if the authorities gather enough witnesses (evidence), it should be able to be determined who the criminal is, even though man is fallible.

It's because man is fallible that the only way to prevent the innocent being executed is to establish absolute guilt. More so when you're going to cart them off to the hangman without an appeal...

Correct. Which means that he would have fled to a city of refuge established by a righteous government.

But just because we determined that Lennie wasn't a murderer does not mean that that is true for every case. That's a hasty generalization based on a sample size of, so far in this conversation, 1.

Lennie's character wouldn't be able to flee to the nearest farm.

:freak:

I do remember asking, and within my last 3 posts.

So you're saying that it's too much effort to look it up? Why should I bother then?

This is another major flaw with the current law systems. . . There's TOO MANY LAWS! No one knows what the law is anymore, except for the lawyers.

Well if you're so bothered about it then look it up. As for perjury I've already given my position. A serious crime that should carry a stiff penalty. Please don't bother with the inevitable DP blather...

But you don't know what the common law penalty for it is?

Ok, let me ask you this then.

What does God say, in the Bible, the penalty for perjury should be? (Hint: I've already provided it, if you were paying thorough attention.)

See above.

That would be an avenge killing. That is not murder, nor does God consider it murder, or He would have demanded that such people be executed for murder.

But if the manslayer [JR's note: or in AB's example, the adulterer who slept with the man's wife] at any time goes outside the limits of the city of refuge where he fled,and the avenger of blood finds him outside the limits of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood, - Numbers 35:26-27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers35:26-27&version=NKJV

Someone who commits adultery is not a 'manslayer'. Someone who kills with premeditation is a murderer. Simple as that.

"he shall not be guilty of blood" is referring to "the avenger of blood (or in this case, marriage)."

:AMR:

Judges will fully punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abetting, or attempted crime, as though they had personally committed the crime; will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander, shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; and shall show no mercy to the guilty.

Does that answer your question?

No, do you think children should be executed given the bit about minors?

Let me know if you want me to answer these. I feel like I addressed all your major points, but if there's anything else, let me know.

Eh, don't worry about it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Right. So two would be enough. Three would be better. Did someone say otherwise?

No, two is not always enough.

God says "two or three" because He wants those who are judging to weigh the evidence. If there are two weak witnesses, then it might not be enough to establish a matter, but if there's one strong witness, and two weak witnesses, then a decision could be made.

I don't tend to pay that much attention to other people's conversations. If you're having it with me and don't note it that's on you, though it doesn't actually change what I wrote about Jesus and the woman or what it leads to, unless you want to, again, reduce the Son of God to the sort of lawyer most people sneer at when they condemn the way our law functions anecdotally.

Which has little to nothing to do with what I'm talking about, and you you still insist on correcting me when you're not even paying attention to what I'm saying.

You're admitting that you're not reading every post, and then when you DO reply to my post it's not within the context of what I have been talking about, but what you and someone else has been talking about, which only has a few similarities.

Either address my arguments within the context of the points I have made, or don't address them at all.

I spoke to what you said, not what you're now amending. Amend the desire, assumption, and approach and you amend my response. lain:

It was an either/or statement.

If Obama is not a Christian, I would love to receive a FR from him.

If Obama is a Christian, I would love to receive a FR from him.

I have not "amended" my position, my position is the same. I just responded to your claim that he was a Christian.

That speaks volumes. Thanks.

Whatever THAT means...

You can't make the case that what I'm saying rests on a straw man argument. It doesn't.

It does, for the reason I explained above.

It doesn't have anything to do with any attempt to transform the narrative of the woman to the above noted idea of Christ as a lawyer letting someone off on a technicality, a thing at odds with justice.

Complete fabrication.

No, that's your side-bar. I'm not chasing rabbits down holes to keep you from dealing with what I actually advanced, more than once, while you and Stripe try a bit desperately to make this about something other and else. Now I haven't seen scripture that defines the two or more witnesses to a thing as physical evidence and if you're saying that's the case I believe the Bible, especially Deut. contradicts you. But it still has no bearing on my argument about Christ in his treatment of the woman and its implications.

Then allow me to supply you with verses that show that "witness" means more than just "eyewitness" in the Bible, so that you can agree, and then we can move on.

Spoiler

Genesis 21:30 NKJV — And he said, “You will take these seven ewe lambs from my hand, that they may be my witness that I have dug this well.”

Genesis 31:44 NKJV — “Now therefore, come, let us make a covenant, you and I, and let it be a witness between you and me.”

Genesis 31:48 NKJV — And Laban said, “This heap is a witness between you and me this day.” Therefore its name was called Galeed,

Genesis 31:50 NKJV — “If you afflict my daughters, or if you take other wives besides my daughters, although no man is with us—see, God is witness between you and me!”

Genesis 31:52 NKJV — “This heap is a witness, and this pillar is a witness, that I will not pass beyond this heap to you, and you will not pass beyond this heap and this pillar to me, for harm.

Exodus 23:1 NKJV — “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Leviticus 5:1 NKJV — ‘If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter—if he does not tell it, he bears guilt.

Numbers 5:13 NKJV — ‘and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught—

Numbers 35:30 NKJV — ‘Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty.

Deuteronomy 4:26 NKJV — “I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy 17:6 NKJV — “Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Deuteronomy 19:15 NKJV — “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.

Deuteronomy 19:16 NKJV — “If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,

Deuteronomy 19:18 NKJV — “And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,

Deuteronomy 31:19 NKJV — “Now therefore, write down this song for yourselves, and teach it to the children of Israel; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:21 NKJV — “Then it shall be, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify against them as a witness; for it will not be forgotten in the mouths of their descendants, for I know the inclination of their behavior today, even before I have brought them to the land of which I swore to give them.”

Deuteronomy 31:26 NKJV — “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Deuteronomy 31:28 NKJV — “Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Spoiler

Joshua 22:27 NKJV — ‘but that it may be a witness between you and us and our generations after us, that we may perform the service of the LORD before Him with our burnt offerings, with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your descendants may not say to our descendants in time to come, “You have no part in the LORD.” ’

Joshua 22:28 NKJV — “Therefore we said that it will be, when they say this to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say, ‘Here is the replica of the altar of the LORD which our fathers made, though not for burnt offerings nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between you and us.’

Joshua 22:34 NKJV — The children of Reuben and the children of Gad called the altar, Witness, “For it is a witness between us that the LORD is God.”

Joshua 24:27 NKJV — And Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness to us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us. It shall therefore be a witness to you, lest you deny your God.”

Judges 11:10 NKJV — And the elders of Gilead said to Jephthah, “The LORD will be a witness between us, if we do not do according to your words.”

1 Samuel 12:5 NKJV — Then he said to them, “The LORD is witness against you, and His anointed is witness this day, that you have not found anything in my hand.” And they answered, “He is witness.”

1 Samuel 20:12 NKJV — Then Jonathan said to David: “The LORD God of Israel is witness! When I have sounded out my father sometime tomorrow, or the third day, and indeed there is good toward David, and I do not send to you and tell you,

1 Kings 21:10 NKJV — and seat two men, scoundrels, before him to bear witness against him, saying, “You have blasphemed God and the king.” Then take him out, and stone him, that he may die.

Spoiler

Job 16:8 NKJV — You have shriveled me up, And it is a witness against me; My leanness rises up against me And bears witness to my face.

Job 16:19 NKJV — Surely even now my witness is in heaven, And my evidence is on high.

Psalm 89:37 NKJV — It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

Proverbs 6:19 NKJV — A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Proverbs 12:17 NKJV — He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit.

Proverbs 14:5 NKJV — A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies.

Proverbs 14:25 NKJV — A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies.

Proverbs 19:5 NKJV — A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies will not escape.

Proverbs 19:28 NKJV — A disreputable witness scorns justice, And the mouth of the wicked devours iniquity.

Proverbs 21:28 NKJV — A false witness shall perish, But the man who hears him will speak endlessly.

Proverbs 24:28 NKJV — Do not be a witness against your neighbor without cause, For would you deceive with your lips?

Proverbs 25:18 NKJV — A man who bears false witness against his neighbor Is like a club, a sword, and a sharp arrow.

Spoiler

Isaiah 19:20 NKJV — And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them.

Isaiah 55:4 NKJV — Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people, A leader and commander for the people.

Jeremiah 29:23 NKJV — because they have done disgraceful things in Israel, have committed adultery with their neighbors’ wives, and have spoken lying words in My name, which I have not commanded them. Indeed I know, and am a witness, says the LORD.

Jeremiah 42:5 NKJV — So they said to Jeremiah, “Let the LORD be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not do according to everything which the LORD your God sends us by you.

Hosea 12:10 NKJV — I have also spoken by the prophets, And have multiplied visions; I have given symbols through the witness of the prophets.”

Micah 1:2 NKJV — Hear, all you peoples! Listen, O earth, and all that is in it! Let the Lord GOD be a witness against you, The Lord from His holy temple.

Malachi 2:14 NKJV — Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.

Malachi 3:5 NKJV — And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien— Because they do not fear Me,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Spoiler

Matthew 15:19 NKJV — “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Matthew 24:14 NKJV — “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 14:56 NKJV — For many bore false witness against Him, but their testimonies did not agree.

Luke 4:22 NKJV — So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Luke 11:48 NKJV — “In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.

John 1:7 NKJV — This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

John 1:8 NKJV — He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John 1:15 NKJV — John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

John 1:32 NKJV — And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

John 3:11 NKJV — “Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

John 3:28 NKJV — “You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’

John 5:31 NKJV — “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.

John 5:32 NKJV — “There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.

John 5:33 NKJV — “You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.

John 5:36 NKJV — “But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 8:13 NKJV — The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

John 8:14 NKJV — Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.

John 8:18 NKJV — “I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

John 10:25 NKJV — Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

John 12:17 NKJV — Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.

John 15:27 NKJV — “And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 18:23 NKJV — Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?”

John 18:37 NKJV — Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Spoiler

Acts 1:22 NKJV — “beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Acts 4:33 NKJV — And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Acts 10:43 NKJV — “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Acts 14:3 NKJV — Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Acts 14:17 NKJV — “Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

Acts 22:5 NKJV — “as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

Acts 22:15 NKJV — ‘For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 23:11 NKJV — But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome.”

Acts 26:16 NKJV — ‘But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.

Romans 1:9 NKJV — For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,

Romans 2:15 NKJV — who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Romans 8:16 NKJV — The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 9:1 NKJV — I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

Romans 10:2 NKJV — For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

2 Corinthians 1:23 NKJV — Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

2 Corinthians 8:3 NKJV — For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,

Galatians 4:15 NKJV — What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Philippians 1:8 NKJV — For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 4:13 NKJV — For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

1 Thessalonians 2:5 NKJV — For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness.

Spoiler

Hebrews 2:4 NKJV — God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Hebrews 11:4 NKJV — By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

James 5:3 NKJV — Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1 Peter 5:1 NKJV — The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:

1 John 1:2 NKJV — the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 5:6 NKJV — This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:7 NKJV — For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 NKJV — And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

1 John 5:9 NKJV — If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

1 John 5:10 NKJV — He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

3 John 1:6 NKJV — who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,

3 John 1:12 NKJV — Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

Revelation 1:2 NKJV — who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:5 NKJV — and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Revelation 3:14 NKJV — “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Revelation 20:4 NKJV — And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You probably didn't read all the verses, because by the time you got done with Deuteronomy, you would have noticed that even non-human entities are also witnesses.

If you didn't read them, then shame on you.

 

[Stripe]

If you didn't read them, then shame on you.

He's still working on "No, two is not always enough." :chuckle:

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, two is not always enough.

God says "two or three" because He wants those who are judging to weigh the evidence. If there are two weak witnesses, then it might not be enough to establish a matter, but if there's one strong witness, and two weak witnesses, then a decision could be made.



Which has little to nothing to do with what I'm talking about, and you you still insist on correcting me when you're not even paying attention to what I'm saying.

You're admitting that you're not reading every post, and then when you DO reply to my post it's not within the context of what I have been talking about, but what you and someone else has been talking about, which only has a few similarities.

Either address my arguments within the context of the points I have made, or don't address them at all.



It was an either/or statement.

If Obama is not a Christian, I would love to receive a FR from him.

If Obama is a Christian, I would love to receive a FR from him.

I have not "amended" my position, my position is the same. I just responded to your claim that he was a Christian.



Whatever THAT means...



It does, for the reason I explained above.



Then allow me to supply you with verses that show that "witness" means more than just "eyewitness" in the Bible, so that you can agree, and then we can move on.

Spoiler

Genesis 21:30 NKJV — And he said, “You will take these seven ewe lambs from my hand, that they may be my witness that I have dug this well.”

Genesis 31:44 NKJV — “Now therefore, come, let us make a covenant, you and I, and let it be a witness between you and me.”

Genesis 31:48 NKJV — And Laban said, “This heap is a witness between you and me this day.” Therefore its name was called Galeed,

Genesis 31:50 NKJV — “If you afflict my daughters, or if you take other wives besides my daughters, although no man is with us—see, God is witness between you and me!”

Genesis 31:52 NKJV — “This heap is a witness, and this pillar is a witness, that I will not pass beyond this heap to you, and you will not pass beyond this heap and this pillar to me, for harm.

Exodus 23:1 NKJV — “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Leviticus 5:1 NKJV — ‘If a person sins in hearing the utterance of an oath, and is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter—if he does not tell it, he bears guilt.

Numbers 5:13 NKJV — ‘and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught—

Numbers 35:30 NKJV — ‘Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty.

Deuteronomy 4:26 NKJV — “I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed.

Deuteronomy 17:6 NKJV — “Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Deuteronomy 19:15 NKJV — “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.

Deuteronomy 19:16 NKJV — “If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,

Deuteronomy 19:18 NKJV — “And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,

Deuteronomy 31:19 NKJV — “Now therefore, write down this song for yourselves, and teach it to the children of Israel; put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:21 NKJV — “Then it shall be, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify against them as a witness; for it will not be forgotten in the mouths of their descendants, for I know the inclination of their behavior today, even before I have brought them to the land of which I swore to give them.”

Deuteronomy 31:26 NKJV — “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Deuteronomy 31:28 NKJV — “Gather to me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to witness against them.

Spoiler

Joshua 22:27 NKJV — ‘but that it may be a witness between you and us and our generations after us, that we may perform the service of the LORD before Him with our burnt offerings, with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your descendants may not say to our descendants in time to come, “You have no part in the LORD.” ’

Joshua 22:28 NKJV — “Therefore we said that it will be, when they say this to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say, ‘Here is the replica of the altar of the LORD which our fathers made, though not for burnt offerings nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between you and us.’

Joshua 22:34 NKJV — The children of Reuben and the children of Gad called the altar, Witness, “For it is a witness between us that the LORD is God.”

Joshua 24:27 NKJV — And Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be a witness to us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us. It shall therefore be a witness to you, lest you deny your God.”

Judges 11:10 NKJV — And the elders of Gilead said to Jephthah, “The LORD will be a witness between us, if we do not do according to your words.”

1 Samuel 12:5 NKJV — Then he said to them, “The LORD is witness against you, and His anointed is witness this day, that you have not found anything in my hand.” And they answered, “He is witness.”

1 Samuel 20:12 NKJV — Then Jonathan said to David: “The LORD God of Israel is witness! When I have sounded out my father sometime tomorrow, or the third day, and indeed there is good toward David, and I do not send to you and tell you,

1 Kings 21:10 NKJV — and seat two men, scoundrels, before him to bear witness against him, saying, “You have blasphemed God and the king.” Then take him out, and stone him, that he may die.

Spoiler

Job 16:8 NKJV — You have shriveled me up, And it is a witness against me; My leanness rises up against me And bears witness to my face.

Job 16:19 NKJV — Surely even now my witness is in heaven, And my evidence is on high.

Psalm 89:37 NKJV — It shall be established forever like the moon, Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

Proverbs 6:19 NKJV — A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Proverbs 12:17 NKJV — He who speaks truth declares righteousness, But a false witness, deceit.

Proverbs 14:5 NKJV — A faithful witness does not lie, But a false witness will utter lies.

Proverbs 14:25 NKJV — A true witness delivers souls, But a deceitful witness speaks lies.

Proverbs 19:5 NKJV — A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies will not escape.

Proverbs 19:28 NKJV — A disreputable witness scorns justice, And the mouth of the wicked devours iniquity.

Proverbs 21:28 NKJV — A false witness shall perish, But the man who hears him will speak endlessly.

Proverbs 24:28 NKJV — Do not be a witness against your neighbor without cause, For would you deceive with your lips?

Proverbs 25:18 NKJV — A man who bears false witness against his neighbor Is like a club, a sword, and a sharp arrow.

Spoiler

Isaiah 19:20 NKJV — And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them.

Isaiah 55:4 NKJV — Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people, A leader and commander for the people.

Jeremiah 29:23 NKJV — because they have done disgraceful things in Israel, have committed adultery with their neighbors’ wives, and have spoken lying words in My name, which I have not commanded them. Indeed I know, and am a witness, says the LORD.

Jeremiah 42:5 NKJV — So they said to Jeremiah, “Let the LORD be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not do according to everything which the LORD your God sends us by you.

Hosea 12:10 NKJV — I have also spoken by the prophets, And have multiplied visions; I have given symbols through the witness of the prophets.”

Micah 1:2 NKJV — Hear, all you peoples! Listen, O earth, and all that is in it! Let the Lord GOD be a witness against you, The Lord from His holy temple.

Malachi 2:14 NKJV — Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.

Malachi 3:5 NKJV — And I will come near you for judgment; I will be a swift witness Against sorcerers, Against adulterers, Against perjurers, Against those who exploit wage earners and widows and orphans, And against those who turn away an alien— Because they do not fear Me,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Spoiler

Matthew 15:19 NKJV — “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

Matthew 24:14 NKJV — “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 14:56 NKJV — For many bore false witness against Him, but their testimonies did not agree.

Luke 4:22 NKJV — So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

Luke 11:48 NKJV — “In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs.

John 1:7 NKJV — This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

John 1:8 NKJV — He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John 1:15 NKJV — John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

John 1:32 NKJV — And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

John 3:11 NKJV — “Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.

John 3:28 NKJV — “You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’

John 5:31 NKJV — “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.

John 5:32 NKJV — “There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.

John 5:33 NKJV — “You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.

John 5:36 NKJV — “But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 8:13 NKJV — The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”

John 8:14 NKJV — Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.

John 8:18 NKJV — “I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

John 10:25 NKJV — Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

John 12:17 NKJV — Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness.

John 15:27 NKJV — “And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 18:23 NKJV — Jesus answered him, “If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why do you strike Me?”

John 18:37 NKJV — Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Spoiler

Acts 1:22 NKJV — “beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Acts 4:33 NKJV — And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Acts 10:43 NKJV — “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Acts 14:3 NKJV — Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Acts 14:17 NKJV — “Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

Acts 22:5 NKJV — “as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.

Acts 22:15 NKJV — ‘For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 23:11 NKJV — But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome.”

Acts 26:16 NKJV — ‘But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.

Romans 1:9 NKJV — For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,

Romans 2:15 NKJV — who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Romans 8:16 NKJV — The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 9:1 NKJV — I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

Romans 10:2 NKJV — For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

2 Corinthians 1:23 NKJV — Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.

2 Corinthians 8:3 NKJV — For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,

Galatians 4:15 NKJV — What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Philippians 1:8 NKJV — For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 4:13 NKJV — For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

1 Thessalonians 2:5 NKJV — For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness.

Spoiler

Hebrews 2:4 NKJV — God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Hebrews 11:4 NKJV — By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

James 5:3 NKJV — Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

1 Peter 5:1 NKJV — The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:

1 John 1:2 NKJV — the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 John 5:6 NKJV — This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:7 NKJV — For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:8 NKJV — And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

1 John 5:9 NKJV — If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

1 John 5:10 NKJV — He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

3 John 1:6 NKJV — who have borne witness of your love before the church. If you send them forward on their journey in a manner worthy of God, you will do well,

3 John 1:12 NKJV — Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

Revelation 1:2 NKJV — who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:5 NKJV — and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Revelation 3:14 NKJV — “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Revelation 20:4 NKJV — And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You probably didn't read all the verses, because by the time you got done with Deuteronomy, you would have noticed that even non-human entities are also witnesses.

If you didn't read them, then shame on you.

It looks as if TH has found his match, and that same match has set his opinions on fire. :rotfl:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Speak English, please. As far as I'm aware, no one here speaks Latin.

I speak EVERY language, except Greek, and Latin is GREEK to me. :rotfl:

 

[JudgeRightly]

It looks as if TH has found his match, and that same match has set his opinions on fire. :rotfl:

[emoji445]Burn! Baby, Burn![emoji445][emoji91][emoji64][emoji91]

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

[emoji445]Burn! Baby, Burn![emoji445][emoji91][emoji64][emoji91]

Yes, Sir.

 

[eider]

Romans 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​

So Jesus never supported any of your nonsense, or you could have quoted his words, or described his actions, eh?

Jesus would not have walked with your ideas about justice, imo.

 

[eider]

There's nothing "just" about killing people who suffer from conditions that render them incapable of being responsible for their actions and your latter is completely and totally clueless.

Do you notice how unhinged some of the members ideas are?
They scream and holler to protect seriously disabled fetuses, but once born they'd gladly execute them painfully if they should commit their ideas of capital offences.

Totally unhinged............

 

[eider]

Please don't call God's law "Sharia law" again.

Nah nah! I'm calling YOUR idea of law 'Sharia Law'.

You will be reported next time for blasphemy.

And that's just about the only way you could win a debate here...... :idunno:

Because your ideas seem unhinged.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Meanwhile, in the case at hand the woman had been caught in the act. And Jesus knew her to be guilty, etc.

John 8:3-6 3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.​

The scribes and Pharisees were attempting to trap Jesus according to His knowledge of what was written in the Law.
This is very important to remember.

Were the scribes and Pharisees correct in what they said was commanded in the Law?

Leviticus 20:10 10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.​

No, Moses in the Law commanded that the man that commits adultery would be put to death and the woman that commits adultery was to be put to death with the man, not by herself.

What else did Moses command in the Law about putting someone to death?
Here are a couple of the commandments and the response Jesus made that relates to them.

Deuteronomy 17:7 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you. Deuteronomy 19:16-19 16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; 17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; 19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.​

John 8:7 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.​

By stating "he that is without sin", Jesus is referring to the provision in the Law against a false witness.
By stating "let him first cast a stone", Jesus is referring to the law that states that hands of the witnesses are to be first to put someone to death.
What was the response by the witnesses?

John 8:9 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.​

Leaving is the response expected of false witnesses.

Lets go back to the original challenge.
The scribes and Pharisees specifically mentioned that the law states that an adulteress was to be stoned.
The verse states that the adulteress was to be put to death but does not actually mention that it was to be done by stoning.
Where is the verse that states that the woman that commits adultery is to be stoned?

Deuteronomy 22:23-27 23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.​

Wait a minute.
Was the woman taken in adultery married or merely bethrothed?
Was she taken in the city or in the field?
Did she cry out and no one saved her?
Did the woman do no sin that was worthy of death?
We don't know, but this shows that the Law commands that a man should be put to death for committing adultery while the woman can go free, if the circumstances warrant it.

There is more in the Law about putting someone to death.

Deuteronomy 17:6 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.​

John 8:10-11 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.​

There were no witnesses to testify against the woman.
How could she be put to death according to the Law without any witnesses?

The most significant point in the story is that the witnesses left without being the first to throw stones.
Since Jesus was not one of the witnesses, He would have to wait until the witnesses threw the first stones before He could do anything, otherwise He would be in violation of the Law, and it didn't matter whether He knew she was guilty or innocent.
If Jesus knew the woman was guilty, He would still be only one witness, and the Law commanded that nobody was to be put to death with only one witnesses.

it doesn't actually change what I wrote about Jesus and the woman or what it leads to, unless you want to, again, reduce the Son of God to the sort of lawyer most people sneer at when they condemn the way our law functions anecdotally.

Did you forget that the challenge was about what Moses commanded in the Law?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I've been told by other zealots that where God instructs 'Israel' that it doesn't extend to the gentiles.

Or is that wrong? Do all commands (except sacrificial ones) extend to all people?

Romans 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )​

So Jesus never supported any of your nonsense, or you could have quoted his words, or described his actions, eh?

You are trying to move the goalposts. :chuckle:

Jesus would not have walked with your ideas about justice, imo.

Those are not my ideas of justice, they are God's ideas of justice that were written down in the Law of Moses.
What makes you think that Jesus would have objected to God's ideas about justice?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you notice how unhinged some of the members ideas are?
They scream and holler to protect seriously disabled fetuses, but once born they'd gladly execute them painfully if they should commit their ideas of capital offences.

Totally unhinged............

We want to protect an innocent and execute the guilty.
You are totally unhinged if you want to slay the innocent and let the guilty live.