The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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Caino

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So does the UB, they have built off of that narrative and TRIED to change it. Is that what you actually want? An 'edited' God? 🤔 When does it only become what is in your head, instead of what is written, Caino? Does that time EVER come?

You 'think' you were smart (as did Sadler) but you became foolish. Instead of wrestling with God over concepts, and actually LEARNING as the creature, you've made/bought one in your image. Do you NOT understand that?

To a point. Let me address your mentioned concern (among many no doubt): God COULD have wiped out Satan. You, in the flesh (completely) imagine 'death' is the worst thing that can happen to man. Nope. While I don't know the whole story, YOURS (Dr. Sadlers) is worse for the wear. God's whole desire is to save man. It requires getting messy because like you and Sadler, YOUR heads get in the way of actual needs. Did you never hear the story of the wheat and tares? The desire was to save. To save every last one of 'redeemable' man.
Can I get you to understand that? Only if you recognize a difference between your spiritual purpose, and the difference of a fleshly man. I ''wrested' as Jacob did: In the flesh. So 'common' sense is simply "Lon" in the flesh. Do I understand God's decisions? No, but I don't and will not whitewash. There is something desperate in our need.

Er, you cannot pick and choose THEN change the story, especially when your rendition is concerned with the flesh. There is a desperate need in man to become reacquainted with Imago Deo: God's image. The END of the story is about wiping away every tear. About never having to wrestle with the flesh, sin, or evil again. Did you STOP reading the Bible before you got to that part? Why don't you know this stuff, Caino? Further: Why would you want any other story than His Story? It requires wrestling with God. Jacob did. It is right there in the Bible.

Your's is made up and edited FROM the Bible. I don't want a god I cleaned up and made myself. I simply want a God who exists and want to know the terms. This God, I pray to, answers my prayers very specifically. He has not only met my material needs, He has indwelled me and is very much the God you want to exist. He reached down in this messy life of mine and gave me hope. He changed me from death to life.
I don't doubt what God has done for you. Thanks you for your testimony. I've been seeing God do that for people in 12 step programs quite apart from having to swallow outrageous claims about God.

All throughout Christianity their are people who are finding the same Loving God who have a very different belief about the accuracy of ALL of the scripture books then you do.

All over the world people are finding the Loving God in their religions despite the confusion they have to deal with from their various scripture books.
 

JudgeRightly

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Your claims that beings created by God cant be destroyed by God. That's not in the Bible.


Yes it is, and I showed you where.

I don't need to prove what you imagine is between the lines.

You DO need to make an actual argument. So far, all you've done is posturing and claims that the Bible is wrong.

The Israelites created a creation story using existing Mesopotamian legends.

:nono:

You have it backwards.

The events in Genesis 1-6 came before the Mesopotamians even existed. They got their stories from the division of the languages, which occurred after the flood. Humanity is one race, descended from one man and one woman, Adam and Eve, bottlenecked at the flood with Noah and his wife and three sons and their wives.

They passed on the knowledge of the flood and the history prior to it down to their kids, grandkids, and so on. It's why literally every culture in the world, even those which have had no contact with the outside world until modern times, have a flood story, or some cataclysmic event along with a creation event, some time in their past.

The nation of Israel is the nation chosen by God, who would obviously be able to accurately tell Moses the history of the earth for him to write down, because God was there when it happened, and better yet, was the One doing the creation!

That's fact, and established history, at this point.

YOU need to provide significant evidence to show anything contrary to established fact.

The UB doesn't cut it.
 

JudgeRightly

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You mean you don't know that histories are often rewritten?

Of course they are!

The problem is that unlike every other nation that rewrites their history, which shows them to be the "good guys" and attempts to glorify themselves and show how great they are, the history of the nation of Israel recorded in the Bible is NOT one of glorification, it doesn't show their greatness, and it doesn't portray them as the "good guys."

Quite the opposite! It shows them to be the most wicked and vile nation to have ever existed! It shows them constantly rejecting their God, and then losing battles that, had their God intervened, would have been an easy win, but because they didn't trust their God, they lost, despite the what would otherwise be a huge advantage they had had! It shows them as an utter failure of a nation!

What nation would ever rewrite their history in such a way to portray them in that way? THE ANSWER IS NONE!

NO NATION would ever so so! Yet Israel, who you claim "rewrote their history," wrote their history portraying themselves as failures.

You need to explain this, to establish why you believe such. I simply need to accept the history as written.

Even if Sadler wrote the UB its a far better explanation then the Israelites story.

According to your entirely subjective opinion.

According to objective fact, the UB is a nonsensical fairy tale.

I've never had to wrestle with the OT because

You're wrestling with it here and now. You're trying to convince yourself that your beliefs are the right ones by trying to show others that their beliefs are false.

It's not going to work. It never has, for anyone.

And you know, in your heart of hearts, that your beliefs are false.

I always knew that the God revealed by Jesus is the true God which trumps the God concept of the Israelites.

Question begging.

Jesus, who is God in the flesh, was a revelation of the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob described in Israel's history.

Sewing the new cloth onto the old really did cause a worse tare just as Jesus warned.

More waffle and posturing.
 

Caino

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Yes it is, and I showed you where.



You DO need to make an actual argument. So far, all you've done is posturing and claims that the Bible is wrong.



:nono:

You have it backwards.

The events in Genesis 1-6 came before the Mesopotamians even existed. They got their stories from the division of the languages, which occurred after the flood. Humanity is one race, descended from one man and one woman, Adam and Eve, bottlenecked at the flood with Noah and his wife and three sons and their wives.

They passed on the knowledge of the flood and the history prior to it down to their kids, grandkids, and so on. It's why literally every culture in the world, even those which have had no contact with the outside world until modern times, have a flood story, or some cataclysmic event along with a creation event, some time in their past.

The nation of Israel is the nation chosen by God, who would obviously be able to accurately tell Moses the history of the earth for him to write down, because God was there when it happened, and better yet, was the One doing the creation!

That's fact, and established history, at this point.

YOU need to provide significant evidence to show anything contrary to established fact.

The UB doesn't cut it.
None of the cultures on earth remember a "Noah" except the Israelites.
The cultures that remember floods would have been drowned in Noah's flood.

The claim of Noah's descendants repopulating the earth would have carried such a significant story with them as you say "knowledge of the flood and the history prior to it down to their kids, grandkids, and so on"

The floods that every culture remembers are the numerous floods that every culture has experienced. Worldwide mythical floods included.

Abraham was a chosen individual. His descendants developed a nationalist EGO which is reflected in their retrospective scripture books.

You haven't provided ANY proof from the Bible that God is powerless to destroy his created beings.
 

Caino

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Of course they are!

The problem is that unlike every other nation that rewrites their history, which shows them to be the "good guys" and attempts to glorify themselves and show how great they are, the history of the nation of Israel recorded in the Bible is NOT one of glorification, it doesn't show their greatness, and it doesn't portray them as the "good guys."

Quite the opposite! It shows them to be the most wicked and vile nation to have ever existed! It shows them constantly rejecting their God, and then losing battles that, had their God intervened, would have been an easy win, but because they didn't trust their God, they lost, despite the what would otherwise be a huge advantage they had had! It shows them as an utter failure of a nation!

What nation would ever rewrite their history in such a way to portray them in that way? THE ANSWER IS NONE!

NO NATION would ever so so! Yet Israel, who you claim "rewrote their history," wrote their history portraying themselves as failures.

You need to explain this, to establish why you believe such. I simply need to accept the history as written.



According to your entirely subjective opinion.

According to objective fact, the UB is a nonsensical fairy tale.



You're wrestling with it here and now. You're trying to convince yourself that your beliefs are the right ones by trying to show others that their beliefs are false.

It's not going to work. It never has, for anyone.

And you know, in your heart of hearts, that your beliefs are false.



Question begging.

Jesus, who is God in the flesh, was a revelation of the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob described in Israel's history.



More waffle and posturing.
Simple explanation, the descendants of Abraham came out of Egypt having been influenced by the doctrines of Divine Providence. The scripture books were written by the ruling elites and to a common audience. They had to continually explain WHY Israel still suffered juxtaposed against their belief in Gods deliverance and rewards for righteousness. In the age that battles were lost by Yahweh's chosen people, the ruling class had to provide explanations. That's why the Bible is a layer cake. Today the same Israelites continue to make excuses for the same false expectatuions.


Jesus knocked over a table once because the Fathers Temple had been turned into a propheteering mall! Jesus never did any of the outrageous killing and torment of the OT God concept.



SACRED AND PROFANE HISTORY​



97:8.1 The custom of looking upon the record of the experiences of the Hebrews as sacred history and upon the transactions of the rest of the world as profane history is responsible for much of the confusion existing in the human mind as to the interpretation of history. And this difficulty arises because there is no secular history of the Jews. After the priests of the Babylonians exile had prepared their new record of God's supposedly miraculous dealings with the Hebrews, the sacred history of Israel as portrayed in the Old Testament, they carefully and completely destroyed the existing records of Hebrew affairs—such books as "The Doings of the Kings of Israel" and "The Doings of the Kings of Judah," together with several other more or less accurate records of Hebrew history.

97:8.2 In order to understand how the devastating pressure and the inescapable coercion of secular history so terrorized the captive and alien-ruled Jews that they attempted the complete rewriting and recasting of their history, we should briefly survey the record of their perplexing national experience. It must be remembered that the Jews failed to evolve an adequate nontheologic philosophy of life. They struggled with their original and Egyptian concept of divine rewards for righteousness coupled with dire punishments for sin. The drama of Job was something of a protest against this erroneous philosophy. The frank pessimism of Ecclesiastes was a worldly wise reaction to these overoptimistic beliefs in Providence.

97:8.3 But five hundred years of the overlordship of alien rulers was too much for even the patient and long-suffering Jews. The prophets and priests began to cry: "How long, O Lord, how long?" As the honest Jew searched the Scriptures, his confusion became worse confounded. An olden seer promised that God would protect and deliver his "chosen people." Amos had threatened that God would abandon Israel unless they re-established their standards of national righteousness. The scribe of Deuteronomy had portrayed the Great Choice—as between the good and the evil, the blessing and the curse. Isaiah the first had preached a beneficent king-deliverer. Jeremiah had proclaimed an era of inner righteousness—the covenant written on the tablets of the heart. The second Isaiah talked about salvation by sacrifice and redemption. Ezekiel proclaimed deliverance through the service of devotion, and Ezra promised prosperity by adherence to the law. But in spite of all this they lingered on in bondage, and deliverance was deferred. Then Daniel presented the drama of the impending "crisis"—the smiting of the great image and the immediate establishment of the everlasting reign of righteousness, the Messianic kingdom.

97:8.4 And all of this false hope led to such a degree of racial disappointment and frustration that the leaders of the Jews were so confused they failed to recognize and accept the mission and ministry of a divine Son of Paradise when he presently came to them in the likeness of mortal flesh—incarnated as the Son of Man.

97:8.5 All modern religions have seriously blundered in the attempt to put a miraculous interpretation on certain epochs of human history. While it is true that God has many times thrust a Father's hand of providential intervention into the stream of human affairs, it is a mistake to regard theologic dogmas and religious superstition as a supernatural sedimentation appearing by miraculous action in this stream of human history. The fact that the "Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men" does not convert secular history into so-called sacred history.

97:8.6 New Testament authors and later Christian writers further complicated the distortion of Hebrew history by their well-meant attempts to transcendentalize the Jewish prophets. Thus has Hebrew history been disastrously exploited by both Jewish and Christian writers. Secular Hebrew history has been thoroughly dogmatized. It has been converted into a fiction of sacred history and has become inextricably bound up with the moral concepts and religious teachings of the so-called Christian nations.

97:8.7 A brief recital of the high points in Hebrew history will illustrate how the facts of the record were so altered in Babylon by the Jewish priests as to turn the everyday secular history of their people into a fictitious and sacred history." UB 1955
 

JudgeRightly

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None of the cultures on earth remember a "Noah" except the Israelites.

I said flood OR cataclysmic event. You know what a cataclysm is, right?

The cultures that remember floods would have been drowned in Noah's flood.

Have you ever played the game called "chinese whispers" or "telephone"?

Now imagine it being played, not by children, but by generations of tribes of people, where one generation passes on a story to the next.

Over time, what is communicated by each generation is corrupted. Some parts are exaggerated, others are diminished, some things are added, other things are left out or forgotten.

All until Joseph came along and invented a written language (rather than the hieroglyphics of the Egyptians) to write down history with.

Then a few hundred years later, Moses comes along and is called out by God, to whom He gives the actual history of the world, from creation to Job, to the Flood, up to and including the story of Joseph.

Other cultures would not have had access to such an accurate and detailed record of the past, simply because they were not God's chosen nation.

The claim of Noah's descendants repopulating the earth would have carried such a significant story with them as you say "knowledge of the flood and the history prior to it down to their kids, grandkids, and so on"

Supra.

The floods that every culture remembers are the numerous floods that every culture has experienced.

Local floods wouldn't have such a lasting impact, Caino.

Worldwide mythical floods included.

Supra.

[Abraham's] descendants developed a nationalist EGO which is reflected in their retrospective scripture books.

False.

You haven't provided ANY proof from the Bible that God is powerless to destroy his created beings.

I did. You ignored it.

Simple explanation, the descendants of Abraham came out of Egypt having been influenced by the doctrines of Divine Providence.

Meaning?

The scripture books were written by the ruling elites

False.

The Pentateuch was written by Moses. Joshua wrote the next book or few books.

Hardly written by the elite... In fact, many of the New Testament authors were fishermen, carpenters, or physicians...

ALL of the books were written by people inspired by God, and ultimately God is the author of the books.

and to a common audience.

To the nation of Israel, mostly, but also to specific groups within the Body of Christ.

They had to continually explain WHY Israel still suffered juxtaposed against their belief in Gods deliverance and rewards for righteousness.

Hardly.

The people of israel knew why they suffered. It was because they were in REBELLION against their Creator. They weren't suffering while believing, let alone following His laws...

In the age that battles were lost by Yahweh's chosen people, the ruling class had to provide explanations.

More fairy tale nonsense.

That's why the Bible is a layer cake. Today the same Israelites continue to make excuses for the same false expectations.

Rather, they have rejected their messiah, and thus God has temporarily cut them off.

Jesus knocked over a table once because the Fathers Temple had been turned into a propheteering mall!

Do you mean "profiteering"?

Jesus never did any of the outrageous killing and torment of the OT God concept.

Your straw man against the God of the Bible does not hold up to scrutiny.
 

Caino

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I said flood OR cataclysmic event. You know what a cataclysm is, right?



Have you ever played the game called "chinese whispers" or "telephone"?

Now imagine it being played, not by children, but by generations of tribes of people, where one generation passes on a story to the next.

Over time, what is communicated by each generation is corrupted. Some parts are exaggerated, others are diminished, some things are added, other things are left out or forgotten.

All until Joseph came along and invented a written language (rather than the hieroglyphics of the Egyptians) to write down history with.

Then a few hundred years later, Moses comes along and is called out by God, to whom He gives the actual history of the world, from creation to Job, to the Flood, up to and including the story of Joseph.

Other cultures would not have had access to such an accurate and detailed record of the past, simply because they were not God's chosen nation.



Supra.



Local floods wouldn't have such a lasting impact, Caino.



Supra.



False.



I did. You ignored it.



Meaning?



False.

The Pentateuch was written by Moses. Joshua wrote the next book or few books.

Hardly written by the elite... In fact, many of the New Testament authors were fishermen, carpenters, or physicians...

ALL of the books were written by people inspired by God, and ultimately God is the author of the books.



To the nation of Israel, mostly, but also to specific groups within the Body of Christ.



Hardly.

The people of israel knew why they suffered. It was because they were in REBELLION against their Creator. They weren't suffering while believing, let alone following His laws...



More fairy tale nonsense.



Rather, they have rejected their messiah, and thus God has temporarily cut them off.



Do you mean "profiteering"?



Your straw man against the God of the Bible does not hold up to scrutiny.
Floods happen all the time today. 2000 years ago the recent Tsunami in Japan would have been credited to a deity being unhappy. Today we know what causes tsunamis.

Moses was a reformer, when he dropped and broke the first tablets he was making a break from what they previously practiced in Egypt. That's why there are (2) sets of 10 commandment and (2) reasons given for Sabbath keeping. These commandments as twice recorded in the Scriptures, in the first case deliverance from Egypt is assigned as the reason for Sabbath keeping, while in a later record the advancing religious beliefs of the Israelites demanded that this be changed to the recognition of the fact of creation as the reason for Sabbath observance.

The Hebrew of Babylon wasn't in existence during Moses's time. Moses live 1000 years prior to the Babylonian captivity when the OT books were finalized.

When the same stories are retold in the OT some things change because they were written by humans not God.

The belief that God wrote the scripture books came latter after the Babylonian captivity.
 
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Caino

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Having first been introduced to OT stories in Christianity as a child, when I first head the UB truths spoken, it was as if I already knew them. The spirit of the Father in me bore witness to the Urantia revelation just like he bore witness to the identity of The Son of God to most of the Apostles.
 
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Caino

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Not ones that covered the entire surface of the earth with water.
Not ones that changed the tilt of the earth's rotation.
Not ones that eject massive amounts of rock and deuterium rich water and ice into the solar system.
etc. etc. etc.
I've never believed the flood because its impossible and God doesn't regret his creation. The only reason the flood story is accepted by normal people is because its in the Bible. If it were outside the bible it wouldn't be accepted.

So people first believe the Israelites flood story, then desperately try to fit it into the real world. The world looks nothing like the Israelites creation or flood story's.

I do realize that you believe it, but that doesn't make it so.
 

Right Divider

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I've never believed the flood because its impossible and God doesn't regret his creation.
Yes, the global flood was just exactly that and the physical evidence for it are undeniably obvious to any reasonable person (which you are not).
The only reason the flood story is accepted by normal people is because its in the Bible. If it were outside the bible it wouldn't be accepted.
Fallacious reasoning.
So people first believe the Israelites flood story, then desperately try to fit it into the real world. The world looks nothing like the Israelites creation or flood story's.
The "flood story" is NOT "Israelite".
I do realize that you believe it, but that doesn't make it so.
Irony off the charts.
 

Caino

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Yes, the global flood was just exactly that and the physical evidence for it are undeniably obvious to any reasonable person (which you are not).

Fallacious reasoning.

The "flood story" is NOT "Israelite".

Irony off the charts.
Yes, the flood story is in the Israelites genealogical line back to Adam. I believe they were unable to do it so thy decided to drown the whole world in its own wickedness.
 
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