The Joys of Catholicism

[Right Divider]

I'm parroting the Catechism, so no.

But Catholicism is still what you would call Jesus's own "churchianity" RD. Being an individual member of His Body the Church, and being a Catholic, are categorically different things, there are people who are both like me, there are people like you who are one and not the other. There are people who are neither. Only being an individual member through faith in Jesus counts eternally. But it doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't have His own "churchianity" in your words. He's our King, and our Master, in that He owns us, we are His slaves, and He promises us, "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Catholicism is a yoke and a burden. But it's easy and light. Which is why it makes me so joyful.

Are you unaware of the many joyful JW's, CS's, Mormon's, etc. etc. etc.

Those "promises" that you describe were also made at the time when Jesus said that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that gentiles were dogs.

I truly hope that you come out of the fake church and learn the truth.

 

[Idolater]

I think I agree with you about 2 categories of sins, and perhaps about scrupulocity, but with this exception--God recognizes 1. Sin that is intentional vs 2. Sin that is committed in ignorance. Your swearing, if a sin at all, would be the intentional type the way you described it. And those are the more serious, it seems to me. But even the unintentional ones required a sacrifice in Leviticus 4 and 5.

Two things.

One is that we are in complete agreement on the matter of intentionality, deliberation and informed consent when it comes to sins. See below for my answer to light sins committed with informed consent. Grave sins are not always, and frequently are not for Christians, done with informed consent. The Catechism elaborates not only on what the grave sins are, and what to do when or if you commit them, but also on the matter of culpability, imputability, guilt for committing them.

The Catechism is a thick book. It was organized according to a principle that is not perfect when it comes to examining a single topic, because while that topic does have a natural place within the Catechism's organization (the table of contents), it also is related to other topics, and so it is mentioned in multiple places. Fortunately they have pretty OK indexes. They also have cross references. It can be done. And when you examine the matter of sin and guilt, you find that the bishops have recognized a very broad spectrum of situations and circumstances that de facto rob us of our ability to make informed consent. In such situations, called "attenuating", "diminishing", and "nullifying" (of guilt), the gravity of the objective sin committed remains unchanged, but our guilt is reduced to the same guilt as light sins, which are automatically forgiven.

And the other thing is one of the joys of Catholicism, the "if it is a sin at all" problem. The grave sins are all enumerated. And because of the nature of light sins as taught us by the bishops, we are actually completely morally free to indulge in light sins without concern of our status as being in full communion.

I know how that looks, and I'm certain that many bishops would disagree with my saying so, I don't think because they would disagree with the content, so much as its articulation. But the fact is, in the Catechism, if you are in full communion, and you never commit any grave sins, then you remain in full communion, 100%, no ifs ands or buts. It's the basic requirement of Catholicism, in one sense. Once you believe in Jesus, convert to the Church (achieve full communion), you're only requirement, ethically, is to maintain full communion. Secondarily, it is to retrieve full communion if ever lost. Reconcile with the Church, in the confessional. And then maintain full communion.

Leviticus 4:2 (KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 4:27-28 (KJV) 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

Leviticus 5:1 (KJV) And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and [is] a witness, whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 5:5 (KJV) And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these [things], that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that [thing]:

Leviticus 5:17 (KJV) And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 5:19 (KJV) It [is] a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Catholicism believes that the New Covenant is in force presently, that it was dedicated with the blood of Jesus, and that it amends the Old Covenant; it doesn't wholesale replace it, there are parts of the Old that persist, there are parts that do not persist into the New. There are very many parts of the Old that do not persist because they are fulfilled in the New, with something new.

One of the things that I believe that Catholicism believes, but I can't find it explicitly, it just lines up with what is explicit, is that when we maintain full communion and receive the Eucharist when we go to Mass, that it is like Jesus is washing our feet from the temporal punishments due us by our light sins, every week. The idea is borne of examining the Catechism's teachings on sin and the Eucharist, combined with the scriptural data of John seemingly replacing the story of the Last Supper, with the story of Him washing His disciples' feet. It's right in the timeline of events, right where the other Gospels tell of the Supper and the institution of the Eucharist, John writes about foot washing.

It's another joy of Catholicism.

 

[Idolater]

Are you unaware of the many joyful JW's, CS's, Mormon's, etc. etc. etc.

Who ever said Catholicism's cornered the market on joy? Not me. Not Catholicism either.

Those "promises" that you describe were also made at the time when Jesus said that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that gentiles were dogs.

And Catholicism chooses to believe the whole entire deposit of faith left to us by the Apostles, which includes both the Scripture and their oral tradition.

I truly hope that you come out of the fake church and learn the truth.

I appreciate your concern; no sarcasm. :e4e:

 

[Idolater]

Two things.

I'm going to add two more things, before I go and lift today. Not feeling very strong, unlikely to do five reps of 310 LBS. I don't even know if If I can do even one.

... the "if it is a sin at all" problem. The grave sins are all enumerated. And because of the nature of light sins as taught us by the bishops, we are actually completely morally free to indulge in light sins without concern of our status as being in full communion.

I know how that looks, and I'm certain that many bishops would disagree with my saying so, I don't think because they would disagree with the content, so much as its articulation. But the fact is, in the Catechism, if you are in full communion, and you never commit any grave sins, then you remain in full communion, 100%, no ifs ands or buts. ...

I'm going to give you an example (@Derf & @Right Divider et al): I . . . drink too much, sometimes. Now drunkenness is some sort of sin, it's either straight grave matter, or it's definitely a sin otherwise, even if it's light, but the drinking that I could do in my past is definitely too much. It's not "a little wine". It's definitely not that.

And I treat alcohol intoxication as a grave sin in my own life, personally, just as I'm treating lifting weights in my own life, meaning I'm really doing it. This isn't just hypothetical or rhetorical story telling.

But I haven't fallen off the wagon for a long time by now. But I have in my past gone very long periods of time without drinking too much, without even trying. So I know that I can't let my guard down, because every one of those long periods of time where I was teetotaling before, ended up with me falling off the wagon again. It was like I was gleefully walking around the very very edge of the wagon looking down at the road as the wagon proceeded along. Whereas all you have to do is sit down, and you won't fall off the wagon, I was still on the wagon, but recklessly trying to balance around the edges of the thing instead of being safe, and then I fell off.

"What did you think was going to happen?" is the obvious accusation. Of course. Fair.

So in order for me to really snuff out the chance that I'll drink too much ever again, I need to set up like a sin war room, where all my top lieutenants gather and we're all focused on winning this war against this enemy.

Now here is where I'm going to say, that I know coffee or caffeine is not something you can gravely sin with. But I need it to be, that I can at times when needed, when felt to be needed, in order to definitely and safely avoid falling off the wagon of alcohol ever again, I need to sometimes be able to drink a LOT of coffee. That's just something that we all in the war room agree, that we need, in order to win this war against drunkenness, once, for all, perpetually. Sometimes, we might drink a whole entire pot of the stuff.

So if we take drunkenness as grave matter, and we taken all hopped up on caffeine as a light sin, then absolutely we are going to be drinking gallons of coffee and probably regularly. We value obeying the Lord Jesus our Master that much.

It's the basic requirement of Catholicism, in one sense. Once you believe in Jesus, convert to the Church (achieve full communion), you're only requirement, ethically, is to maintain full communion. Secondarily, it is to retrieve full communion if ever lost. Reconcile with the Church, in the confessional. And then maintain full communion.

Catholicism believes that the New Covenant is in force presently, that it was dedicated with the blood of Jesus, and that it amends the Old Covenant; it doesn't wholesale replace it, there are parts of the Old that persist, there are parts that do not persist into the New. There are very many parts of the Old that do not persist because they are fulfilled in the New, with something new.

For starters, the Church is the New Covenant's temple, the Lord Jesus Himself is the New Covenant's high priest, the cross is the New Covenant's temple's altar; and of course we believe there are temporal materializations of these as well, with physical (temporal) parish church buildings and cathedrals, ordained bishops and priests celebrating the sacraments, and physical altars.

Even the Lord's eternal sacrifice on the cross is perpetually temporally materialized in the sacrament of the Eucharist.

 

[Derf]

I'm going to add two more things, before I go and lift today. Not feeling very strong, unlikely to do five reps of 310 LBS. I don't even know if If I can do even one.

I'm going to give you an example (@Derf & @Right Divider et al): I . . . drink too much, sometimes. Now drunkenness is some sort of sin, it's either straight grave matter, or it's definitely a sin otherwise, even if it's light, but the drinking that I could do in my past is definitely too much. It's not "a little wine". It's definitely not that.

And I treat alcohol intoxication as a grave sin in my own life, personally, just as I'm treating lifting weights in my own life, meaning I'm really doing it. This isn't just hypothetical or rhetorical story telling.

But I haven't fallen off the wagon for a long time by now. But I have in my past gone very long periods of time without drinking too much, without even trying. So I know that I can't let my guard down, because every one of those long periods of time where I was teetotaling before, ended up with me falling off the wagon again. It was like I was gleefully walking around the very very edge of the wagon looking down at the road as the wagon proceeded along. Whereas all you have to do is sit down, and you won't fall off the wagon, I was still on the wagon, but recklessly trying to balance around the edges of the thing instead of being safe, and then I fell off.

"What did you think was going to happen?" is the obvious accusation. Of course. Fair.

So in order for me to really snuff out the chance that I'll drink too much ever again, I need to set up like a sin war room, where all my top lieutenants gather and we're all focused on winning this war against this enemy.

Now here is where I'm going to say, that I know coffee or caffeine is not something you can gravely sin with. But I need it to be, that I can at times when needed, when felt to be needed, in order to definitely and safely avoid falling off the wagon of alcohol ever again, I need to sometimes be able to drink a LOT of coffee. That's just something that we all in the war room agree, that we need, in order to win this war against drunkenness, once, for all, perpetually. Sometimes, we might drink a whole entire pot of the stuff.

So if we take drunkenness as grave matter, and we taken all hopped up on caffeine as a light sin, then absolutely we are going to be drinking gallons of coffee and probably regularly. We value obeying the Lord Jesus our Master that much.

How do you value obeying the Lord Jesus by disobeying the Lord Jesus, even in small ways? Do you have children? What if one of them said to you, "I agree that it would be wrong to murder my brother, so I'm just going to torture him instead. It's still wrong, but at least it isn't murdering him."

What you've written is a justification of sin in your mind, but it isn't what the Lord tells us in His word. For example, it would be a small sin to eat some fruit that we've been told not to eat, right? Yet eating a piece of forbidden fruit condemned the whole human race to death.

Even the Lord's eternal sacrifice on the cross is perpetually temporally materialized in the sacrament of the Eucharist.

No, it isn't. Memorialized, but not materialized--unless we're talking about two different events.

 

[Idolater]

How do you value obeying the Lord Jesus by disobeying the Lord Jesus, even in small ways?

I'm . . . obeying Him in the big ways. According to Him, they're the big ways.

Do you have children? What if one of them said to you, "I agree that it would be wrong to murder my brother, so I'm just going to torture him instead. It's still wrong, but at least it isn't murdering him."

Torture and murder are both grave matter. There's no categorical distinction between the two as regards gravity.

So more like, I'm going to either murder him or I'm going to steal pocket change from him. Both sins.

What you've written is a justification of sin in your mind, but it isn't what the Lord tells us in His word. For example, it would be a small sin to eat some fruit that we've been told not to eat, right? Yet eating a piece of forbidden fruit condemned the whole human race to death.

Eating that fruit constituted the entirety of sin at that time. Adam and Eve both murdered, raped, tortured, etc. et al., in eating some fruit.

No, it isn't. Memorialized, but not materialized--unless we're talking about two different events.

It's one event, it's an eternal event. Eternal events all perpetuate in temporality.

"Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme". I never tried this seasoning mixture when making chicken, and why not? So I did. Just now. 'Smells like KFC tbh, which is interesting. Anyway I've been seasoning chicken for a while, all sorts of seasoning mixtures, this that and the other thing, but not once did I ever just try this very famous mixture.

I never had any reason not to try this combination. Makes no sense not to. What, because it's in a song? That's no reason.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm . . . obeying Him in the big ways. According to Him, they're the big ways.

Jesus said if you keep the greater laws, you must also keep the lesser laws.

You dishonor Him by breaking the lesser laws, just because you're keeping the greater.

 

[Derf]

I'm . . . obeying Him in the big ways. According to Him, they're the big ways.

I'd like to see your evidence "according to Him".

Torture and murder are both grave matter. There's no categorical distinction between the two as regards gravity.

Ok, let's try the next step, Dad. "If you don't want me to torture my brother, is it ok if I just lock him in his room? No? What if I just hate him in my mind, with no external manifestations?"

So more like, I'm going to either murder him or I'm going to steal pocket change from him. Both sins.

Yep. That's the same pattern I was heading down, but I went a little further above. That's ok, right?

Eating that fruit constituted the entirety of sin at that time. Adam and Eve both murdered, raped, tortured, etc. et al., in eating some fruit.

Yet it was such a small thing...like stealing pocket change.

It's one event, it's an eternal event. Eternal events all perpetuate in temporality.

The significance of the event was eternal, for sure, but Jesus is not eternally on the cross.

"Parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme". I never tried this seasoning mixture when making chicken, and why not? So I did. Just now. 'Smells like KFC tbh, which is interesting. Anyway I've been seasoning chicken for a while, all sorts of seasoning mixtures, this that and the other thing, but not once did I ever just try this very famous mixture.

I never had any reason not to try this combination. Makes no sense not to. What, because it's in a song? That's no reason.

Love the song, but haven't tried the chicken. Does this belong in a different thread, or am I unaware of some obscure Catholic thing? Does the pope have a fondness for Simon and Garfunkle?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This is the thread to express all the joys great and small that Catholics and Antiprotestants experience as believers and subscribers to Catholic theology inclusive, in shorthand Catholicism.

I'll kick it off with a recent joy I experienced, that in this time of social distancing and lockdowns and stay-at-home or shelter-in-place orders, Mass attendance has been postponed.

My bishop, Cardinal Seán, ordered us to stay home from Mass a couple weekends ago. As a Catholic, the joy is that I feel literally zero guilt or pressure or negativity of any kind in not going to Mass. No urgency, we just wait for our bishop to give us the green light and until then we just live our lives.

Part of this joy, is that priests are still celebrating Mass on behalf of the Church, even while Mass attendance is suspended. So the Lord continues to receive the worship due Him, even while most of the non-ordained faithful aren't anywhere near Mass right now.

So, while we do suffer from not receiving Holy Communion, not having access to Confession, not congregating together in worship for a time, we enjoy the confidence in knowing what the will of God is for us right now. It's to listen to our bishop, as it always has been, nothing has changed.

A word of warning to Anticatholics who are all free to post here, that the OP will be defended. I repeat that you are all free to post and argue and fight and debate and discuss, I'm not asking you to abstain but am instead welcoming you all, but the OP will be defended.

Peace be with you.

To me its the joy of having all the gifts that our father meant for us to have. Protestants have a bare, Spartan, limited Christianity. We have the feast days of the saints and the traditions handed down to us which Paul says to hold fast to. . . . we enjoy the fullness of Christ, especially at the table of life where we receive his true body and blood. To be Catholic is to be fully and authentically Christian.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

 

[Right Divider]

To me its the joy of having all the gifts that our father meant for us to have. Protestants have a bare, Spartan, limited Christianity. We have the feast days of the saints and the traditions handed down to us which Paul says to hold fast to. . . . we enjoy the fullness of Christ, especially at the table of life where we receive his true body and blood. To be Catholic is to be fully and authentically Christian.

Don't forget the joy of your pride. Catholics are very proud to be Catholics.

Col 2:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

 

[Idolater]

To me its the joy of having all the gifts that our father meant for us to have. Protestants have a bare, Spartan, limited Christianity. We have the feast days of the saints and the traditions handed down to us which Paul says to hold fast to. . . . we enjoy the fullness of Christ, especially at the table of life where we receive his true body and blood. To be Catholic is to be fully and authentically Christian.

That's pretty good.

 

[Hoping]

To me its the joy of having all the gifts that our father meant for us to have. Protestants have a bare, Spartan, limited Christianity. We have the feast days of the saints and the traditions handed down to us which Paul says to hold fast to. . . . we enjoy the fullness of Christ, especially at the table of life where we receive his true body and blood. To be Catholic is to be fully and authentically Christian.

One more thing "they" enjoy...sin.

 

[Idolater]

Don't forget the joy of your pride. Catholics are very proud to be Catholics.

Col 2:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: (2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

I'm not proud to be Catholic. Blessed, fortunate, thankful, grateful, all these things and more; not proud.

 

[Idolater]

One more thing "they" enjoy...sin.

Freedom from the snares of sin, yes. That is very enjoyable. Most liberating experience of my life, and it never ends.

 

[Right Divider]

I'm not proud to be Catholic.

You're a rarity.

Blessed, fortunate, thankful, grateful, all these things and more; not proud.

Good for you.

 

[Hoping]

Freedom from the snares of sin, yes. That is very enjoyable. Most liberating experience of my life, and it never ends.

How long has it been that you have been free from sin?
How long have you NOT needed to go to confession?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

One more thing "they" enjoy...sin.

Provoking me, and insulting over a billion Christians, says far more about you than it does about us. We are sharing our joys. You spew hate. So who is the sinner

 

[Idolater]

How long has it been that you have been free from sin?

I've been freed from the snares of sin since my conversion.

How long have you NOT needed to go to confession?

Years.

 

[Hoping]

Provoking me, and insulting over a billion Christians, says far more about you than it does about us. We are sharing our joys. You spew hate. So who is the sinner

What hate?
You said you were free from the snares of sin, and I asked how long have you been free from sinning?
I was going to use the answer to see if you really were a non-sinner now.
I myself have been free for over 14 years.
To the glory of God.
If that idea provokes you, I hope it provokes you to keep manifesting both the life and death of Jesus Christ by your life in Christ.

BTW...I don't consider sinners as "Christian".
Sinners emulate their father, the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)