The Joys of Catholicism

clefty

New member
Isn't one of the joys of Catholicism is knowing that when you die you'll go to Hell or Purgatory? (Heaven is only an option after Purgatory.)

Isn't that one of the fundamental beliefs of Catholicism?

Hey! who is this interrupting our interruptions...LOL

knowing that when you die you’ll go to hell of purgatory is a catholic joy? Ouch...

ok maybe...but yes they do teach the Immortality of the soul...and purgatory and eternal torment hell...

but scripture does not...certainly not the scripture they didn’t give us...the OT...

we are to fear One Who can destroy the soul...it can be and will be destroyed...and not remain in a state of torment undestroyed...
 

God's Truth

New member
which law...if you are circumcised you have kept the works of the law duh...Paul was referring to the 10...which even though they are circumcised they still didnt keep the 10...or maybe they still ate pig...no matter- Paul was clear circumcision does NOT mean you actually keep the Law...more broadly it does NOT SAVE one
Paul is speaking about the no more of the works of the law. The works of the law are the purification works of the law that included observing the Sabbath as a no work day.

No where is that saying what you infer it to say: that Paul wanted to trick the Sanhedrin at his trial Acts 22 into saying they worshipped Jesus so he could kill them...
What? Where did I say at Paul's trial?

they were there because of one charge: he taught One resurrected...and NOT that he taught Sabbath was changed to every day we can eat dogs now...because he did NOT teach that...

They wanted to kill Paul because they thought he was trying to trick them so that he could have them put in prison.
 

God's Truth

New member
If they kept the old law they wouldn’t NEED saving...LOL
The Jews who belonged to God by obeying the old law, they now had to go through Jesus to remain God’s.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
cherry picking again...
No such defense as oh that scripture doesn’t count because it is cherry picked. They were enemies of God because they did not get circumcised in the flesh. Jesus saved them and didn’t make them get circumcised first.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

when one becomes a citizen of a country YOU KEEP ITS LAWS...don’t try to avoid them with clever talk...or claim its not for you...

”oh no we don’t need to keep the laws...they were fulfilled by the founders” LOL
Not sure what you are talking about.

Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and
were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
WERE enemies...

Not only did you cherry pick but you cut the cherry IN HALF...

FINISH THE VERSE
No such thing what you are talking about.
”yet now He has reconciled” to what look like the rest of the world or your former self or to be MORE LIKE HIM HIS WAY HIS FAITH
Again, the Gentiles were ENEMIES of God because they did NOT obey the works of the law!
You keep saying they did but the scriptures say they were enemies.
 

God's Truth

New member
Ha? hope you were laughing about our “ hijacking “ this thread

and not how Sabbath was moved to Sunday by the tradition of man outside of scripture...by those like you wishing to change both TIMES and Law...

That is not funny...

Okay, stop right there and move all the rest of your posts and make a new thread because you did hijack this abandoned thread. If you don't move it to your own thread then I won't reply to all that you have already posted.
 

clefty

New member
Paul is speaking about the no more of the works of the law.
ok so if you get circumcised you don’t need to to do the other laws?

Cause he said even those that are circumcised do not keep the law...

The works of the law are the purification works of the law that included observing the Sabbath as a no work day.
You really are like those with the joy of catholics...

at least they absorb the 2nd commandment prohibiting images into the 1

and then split the last one about no coveting the neighbor into 2: one about not coveting the wife and the last about not coveting possessions

This is to make 10 commandments again...

But what did YOU do to the other 9 commandment to make them 10 again after you removed the Sabbath commandment to put it into your “the purification works of the law”?



What? Where did I say at Paul's trial?
post #101 I was speaking of Paul addressing the council who put him on trial with only ONE charge...

nothing about him teaching your “Sabbath is every day now...or let’s go eat dog”...you say they thought he was trying to trick them so he could drag them off to prison...

What actually got them upset was when he said he was sent to the Gentiles too...


They wanted to kill Paul because they thought he was trying to trick them so that he could have them put in prison.

There see? You just said it AGAIN about the trial he was in...

He was in trouble with THEM...they were NOT in trouble from him...

Wow...did he try to trick Felix too...Festus...Agrippa? The jews that visited him while he was under house arrest?

You want both Luke writing this and Paul speaking this to be LIARS as they wrote clearly WHY jews wanted Paul killed...which was concerning the resurrection of the dead the hope of Israel to the gentiles...this charge was repeated over and over again...

Nothing about his preaching the sabbath was abrogated and they should eat dogs now...

if he taught that there is NO way he could claim innocence of NOT having upset the jews teaching against the Law or temple...AND THEY WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM...

but over and over again it was judged NO REASON TO DIE and his case got bumped to a higher court as he had appealed to Caesar himself...

Imagine Paul standing in front of Caesar...”so these zealous jews right? You know...the stubborn people who have harassed Rome for centuries by REFUSING TO COMPROMISE ON ANYTHING...Well I am telling them they their sabbath is done away with now and they are supposed to eat dogs too”...LOL

Your false witness is just like the lying jews claim of Stephen and a joy to catholics as they too claim Sabbath is done away with but at least under their ecclesial authority and of their tradition and OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE...

You would even have Him break His Father’s Law...a sin...

Oh wait catholics do too...claiming that because Jesus became incarnate the prohibition against images He did away with...

The irony...
 

clefty

New member
The Jews who belonged to God by obeying the old law,
ummm NO...there was this promise to Abraham that jews were blood descendants from...that is why they belonged to Yah...but the could and did fall out of favor...

they now had to go through Jesus to remain God’s.
oh see...to REMAIN...you do understand after all...however we were NOT talking about Jews here silly

We were talking about goyim...believing goyim which in Him they were circumcised without hands...Col 2:11 but you started at Vers 13 like a cherry picker...to show they were enemies...WERE but faith brought them into keeping the Sabbath...neat eh?


No such defense as oh that scripture doesn’t count because it is cherry picked.
it is how you use it that makes it sour though...even foul

They were enemies of God because they did not get circumcised in the flesh.
their faith came first it is true...like Abraham circumcised at 99...saved long before that...

Jesus saved them and didn’t make them get circumcised first.
well not the traditional part...but the inner jew his circumcised heart was a real thing...

Which shows SUBMISSION and obedience to Him...Master...Lord of the Sabbath...which you reject...following your own gospel your own christ...claiming He is a 24 hour time period now...


Not sure what you are talking about.
why would you? You have NOT become a full citizen of Israel...His people as you are not minding His people’s house rules...His people keep the commandments of Yah...all 10 and the faith OF Yahushua you claim every day Sabbath and we can eat dogs...

Paul was clear Eph 2 that gentiles were no longer foreigners but citizens of Israel...so they keep Israel’s law...dont import their own or a variation of His 10


No such thing what you are talking about.
you only chose the first part about WERE enemies but the verse ends “yet He has reconciled you” and to what the world’s ways to your former behaviors...or to Him His Ways...


Again, the Gentiles were ENEMIES of God because they did NOT obey the works of the law!
You keep saying they did but the scriptures say they were enemies.

The were enemies as they did not...but NOW THEY DO...is why Paul says “let no one judge you in you doing so BUT the body of Christ”

Why would any judge them at all if they were gentiles NOT keeping the Sabbath...Paul needs to say this because they ARE keeping the Sabbath...as these “ARE a shadow of good things to come”
 

clefty

New member
Okay, stop right there and move all the rest of your posts and make a new thread because you did hijack this abandoned thread.
I did? You were claiming catholics teach they sacrifice Him a billion times...and I provided you evidence they do NOT

And showed how you misuse scripture as they do...as if Sabbath is every day and we can eat dog now...

Will remain a mystery...what you did to the other 9 to keep it 10 commandments after removing the Sabbath one...the only one specifically given to all men...and expected by Him to continue into the future...Sabbath and winter times...far into the future...good things coming still...

If you don't move it to your own thread then I won't reply to all that you have already posted.

Fair enough...despite what you showed here I will allow you a charitable retreat...
 

God's Truth

New member
I did? You were claiming catholics teach they sacrifice Him a billion times...and I provided you evidence they do NOT

And showed how you misuse scripture as they do...as if Sabbath is every day and we can eat dog now...

Will remain a mystery...what you did to the other 9 to keep it 10 commandments after removing the Sabbath one...the only one specifically given to all men...and expected by Him to continue into the future...Sabbath and winter times...far into the future...good things coming still...



Fair enough...despite what you showed here I will allow you a charitable retreat...

Now you are spamming because you just repeated yourself and that untruth about me more than once. The Catholics call the wafer a sacrifice and it isn't the first time Catholics deny what their doctrines mean or imply.

I'm not answering any of your posts here make your own thread you just keep on and want to blame me.
 

clefty

New member
Latin was the language of Rome, so I'd imagine only the Church in Rome celebrated the Mass in Latin in the first century. Many, myself included though I wasn't born by the time the liturgical difference of the second Vatican council manifested, believe that the Tridentine Latin Mass is the historically ultimate form of the liturgy. To be able to witness such a sacred thing every week must have been amazing, and I believe that it will again become the most common form, once the Protestant and Orthodox conflicts are resolved. This is all imo of course. It's not in any way the Catholic view of the matter, and there are some parishes that are authorized to celebrate the Tridentine Mass even today, but far and away Mass is celebrated in the local vernacular of each parish, with many parishes celebrating Mass in more than one language (either as separates Masses, or even within a single Mass, where for example there is both English and Spanish spoken /sung).

Hey!

did you have a chance to see this? Very interesting developments regarding Vatican 2’s time being over...?

https://youtu.be/xCaQ2SN2fLo

Seems like more and more people even bored evangelicals are desiring a return to the by gone glory of the traditional church...

Not TOO far back though...might look jewish again...LOL
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
Maybe a good idea to move it to another thread.
lmk if you'd prefer a new thread Derf. Fits here as far as I'm concerned. :)
What you said made me think of Dave Ramsey's approach to paying off debt--start with the baby steps. Iow, pay off the easier debts to pay off, then apply that payment that was freed up to the next easiest, etc., not stopping until all debt is paid off. Debt is explicitly compared to sin by Jesus, so the analogy is appropriate, I think. Giving permission to commit little, or less significant, sins is like putting Jesus back on the cross.
I'd've just let this go except for your last sentence there. :) 'Had to continue the discussion.

"Giving permission to commit little, or less significant, sins is like putting Jesus back on the cross."

We are taught that we should confess our light sins but for the purpose not of reconciling, but of furthering our perfection here on earth, preparing us for heaven. The more we shed our sins, the purified we become, the more Christlike, the more we are conformed to His image.

But it is true that there is a categorical distinction between committing the grave sins and the light ones. Basically we are commanded to avoid grave sins absolutely, and this warning has teeth, we are not licitly permitted to receive Communion if we do, without reconciling with the Church in the confessional, and if we do receive anyway, we risk the threats which Paul mentioned in 1st Corinthians 11.

We take this teaching on the varying gravities of sins with thanksgiving, since it sets the edge on what we can with all boldness do in this life as we continually seek to perfect ourselves, mortifying our members. It's a lifelong process, even if anyone does achieve perfection it isn't like reaching the mountain's summit, you still have to keep moving upward and onward, all the way to glory.

But we know that the Lord meant it when He said that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. It's not that we're without the yoke and without the burden, but it's and easy yoke and a light burden, but it's still there, and it should be there.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Meaning that Catholicism encourages people to sin, at least in little ways?
Mark 9:42 (ESV) “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
Meaning that Catholicism encourages people to sin, at least in little ways?
Mark 9:42 (ESV) “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
No I wouldn't call it encourage, no. I would call it perhaps . . . a loophole? It's like an Easter egg. It's like when you study some riddle and you finally figure it out.

Your view is, I've heard it referred to as, "scrupulosity". In Catholic land, that's what your view is called. Scrupulosity.

There's no such thing as scrupulosity when the sin or sins in question are grave matter though, one can not be too concerned about grave sins. One of the problems with folks who suffer from scrupulosity is distraction away from the grave stuff. We can't ever lose a moment's notice from avoiding grave sins of any kind.

There's never any situation where for instance a priest or the pope says, "Oh yeah, that is a tough spot you're in there, you should go ahead and commit that grave sin, in that case, because of the situation you're in."

But light sins? You might catch a priest or two, even a bishop, confess or admit that if it really comes down to, you're at a crossroads, and you feel pulled in both directions, one toward a grave sin, and the other toward a light sin, you should just go ahead and indulge that light sin. If that's the situation you find yourself in, then yes, avoid the grave sin at all cost, even if it means commit the light sin.

And that was part of my initial point. Catholics do swear a lot, and drink a lot, and smoke a lot and do other light sins a lot. I don't mean 'lapsed' Catholics either, I'm talking about weekly Mass goers. This is why. It's because it's so very important to us to never ever commit a grave sin, that we just acknowledge the Apostolic teaching on the matter of light sins as taught to us by our bishops, and act in what appears to us to be our best interests, in the moment, the here-and-now.

We want to be pure and sinless and perfect, and yet we also acknowledge that our unwillingness to truly commit to ridding ourselves of every light sin, is borne from light sin itself. The desire to dabble in light sins is a light sin itself.

We also know that purgatory is where our light sins will be wiped clean off of us, with cleansing, purifying, purging, fire. We look forward to that, if we can't be rid of light sins now, or yet.

Also remember the temporal punishments of all our light sins, when we remain in full communion with the Church, and we receive the Holy Eucharist, are forgiven us. That's also in the mix, and significant, as to why Catholics do tend to cuss a lot.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Also remember the temporal punishments of all our light sins, when we remain in full communion with the Church, and we receive the Holy Eucharist, are forgiven us. That's also in the mix, and significant, as to why Catholics do tend to cuss a lot.
So Jesus didn't die for ALL of our sins?

Col 2:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This is exactly the type of FALSE doctrine the RCC peddles. That Jesus died for some sins, but not others.

Notice the lack of any caveats here:
1Cor 15:3 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Christ died for our SINS... i.e., ALL of them.
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
So Jesus didn't die for ALL of our sins?
Yes He did, never said or implied otherwise, not even a little, not even once.
Col 2:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This is exactly the type of FALSE doctrine the RCC peddles. That Jesus died for some sins, but not others.
Straw man. Bald assertion.
Notice the lack of any caveats here:
1Cor 15:3 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Christ died for our SINS... i.e., ALL of them.
We reap what we sow, it's self-evident. If you sin, there are consequences, punishments, penalties, in this life, it's self-evident, even you'd have to agree. You commit adultery, you're going to endure a punishment for that, of some sort, whether it's formal or informal, Jesus didn't die so that you could go commit adultery and not have any consequences for it in this life. His death paid the eternal penalty for all of our sins (even our light ones), something we could never pay back or work off, even for all eternity. The cleansing fire of purgatory doesn't pay our eternal debt, that is eternally settled by Christ's eternal sacrifice on the cross that He offers perpetually to the Father on behalf of His Body the Church.

And I believe you're an individual member of the Church, to be clear. That has nothing to do with being Catholic but is based entirely upon faith in Jesus.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes He did, never said or implied otherwise, not even a little, not even once.
I never said that you did. Your "church" (the RCC) most certainly does.
Straw man. Bald assertion.
It's sad that most Catholics are so ignorant of their own "churches" doctrines.
We reap what we sow, it's self-evident. If you sin, there are consequences, punishments, penalties, in this life, it's self-evident, even you'd have to agree. You commit adultery, you're going to endure a punishment for that, of some sort, whether it's formal or informal, Jesus didn't die so that you could go commit adultery and not have any consequences for it in this life. His death paid the eternal penalty for all of our sins (even our light ones), something we could never pay back or work off, even for all eternity. The cleansing fire of purgatory doesn't pay our eternal debt, that is eternally settled by Christ's eternal sacrifice on the cross that He offers perpetually to the Father on behalf of His Body the Church.
Such double-talk. False religion will do that to you. Purgatory is nothing but an RC myth used to get "donations".
I've always said that the body of Christ are not sheep. But Catholics most definitely are sheep... getting fleeced all the time.
And I believe you're an individual member of the Church, to be clear. That has nothing to do with being Catholic but is based entirely upon faith in Jesus.
Amen!
 

Derf

Well-known member
No I wouldn't call it encourage, no. I would call it perhaps . . . a loophole? It's like an Easter egg. It's like when you study some riddle and you finally figure it out.

Your view is, I've heard it referred to as, "scrupulosity". In Catholic land, that's what your view is called. Scrupulosity.

There's no such thing as scrupulosity when the sin or sins in question are grave matter though, one can not be too concerned about grave sins. One of the problems with folks who suffer from scrupulosity is distraction away from the grave stuff. We can't ever lose a moment's notice from avoiding grave sins of any kind.

There's never any situation where for instance a priest or the pope says, "Oh yeah, that is a tough spot you're in there, you should go ahead and commit that grave sin, in that case, because of the situation you're in."

But light sins? You might catch a priest or two, even a bishop, confess or admit that if it really comes down to, you're at a crossroads, and you feel pulled in both directions, one toward a grave sin, and the other toward a light sin, you should just go ahead and indulge that light sin. If that's the situation you find yourself in, then yes, avoid the grave sin at all cost, even if it means commit the light sin.

And that was part of my initial point. Catholics do swear a lot, and drink a lot, and smoke a lot and do other light sins a lot. I don't mean 'lapsed' Catholics either, I'm talking about weekly Mass goers. This is why. It's because it's so very important to us to never ever commit a grave sin, that we just acknowledge the Apostolic teaching on the matter of light sins as taught to us by our bishops, and act in what appears to us to be our best interests, in the moment, the here-and-now.

We want to be pure and sinless and perfect, and yet we also acknowledge that our unwillingness to truly commit to ridding ourselves of every light sin, is borne from light sin itself. The desire to dabble in light sins is a light sin itself.

We also know that purgatory is where our light sins will be wiped clean off of us, with cleansing, purifying, purging, fire. We look forward to that, if we can't be rid of light sins now, or yet.

Also remember the temporal punishments of all our light sins, when we remain in full communion with the Church, and we receive the Holy Eucharist, are forgiven us. That's also in the mix, and significant, as to why Catholics do tend to cuss a lot.
I think I agree with you about 2 categories of sins, and perhaps about scrupulocity, but with this exception--God recognizes 1. Sin that is intentional vs 2. Sin that is committed in ignorance. Your swearing, if a sin at all, would be the intentional type the way you described it. And those are the more serious, it seems to me. But even the unintentional ones required a sacrifice in Leviticus 4 and 5.
Leviticus 4:2 (KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 4:27-28 (KJV) 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

Leviticus 5:1 (KJV) And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and [is] a witness, whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 5:5 (KJV) And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these [things], that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that [thing]:

Leviticus 5:17 (KJV) And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist [it] not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 5:19 (KJV) It [is] a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.
 

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
I never said that you did. Your "church" (the RCC) most certainly does.
I'm parroting the Catechism, so no.
It's sad that most Catholics are so ignorant of their own "churches" doctrines.

Such double-talk. False religion will do that to you. Purgatory is nothing but an RC myth used to get "donations".
I've always said that the body of Christ are not sheep. But Catholics most definitely are sheep... getting fleeced all the time.

Amen!
But Catholicism is still what you would call Jesus's own "churchianity" RD. Being an individual member of His Body the Church, and being a Catholic, are categorically different things, there are people who are both like me, there are people like you who are one and not the other. There are people who are neither. Only being an individual member through faith in Jesus counts eternally. But it doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't have His own "churchianity" in your words. He's our King, and our Master, in that He owns us, we are His slaves, and He promises us, "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Catholicism is a yoke and a burden. But it's easy and light. Which is why it makes me so joyful.
 
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