The Joys of Catholicism

[Idolater]

... I haven't done it yet but I think searching for "play stupid games win stupid prizes" might be some funny results.

Like this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WinStupidPrizes/comments/167xznv
Anyway:

Another Joy of Catholicism: devotions. I was a cradle Evangelical, and if I were to put who I am into Catholic terms, I would say that I had a great devotion to the Evangelical Bible (which only has 66 books instead of the Catholic 73). I was obsessed with the Bible. If I were instead Catholic this would have resulted in me being a Scripture scholar. But instead I was an Evangelical.

This guy (below) is obsessed with Mary, but, he has guardrails, particularly the liturgy. This is why Catholic devotions are a joy because you can really "air out" your faith and not destroy your life with a slight misstep.

You're safe.

 

[Right Divider]

@Idolater Mary was a sinner in need of a savior. She said so herself.

Luke 1:47 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Catholics believe lies. It's sad.

 

[7djengo7]

People play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Even the Hebrew people, Mary's own kin, played stupid games and won stupid prizes. Jesus needed to save Mary from the stupid prizes that her own people won for playing stupid games. It didn't require that she play stupid games, in order that she needed to be saved from stupid prizes.

You mean, like, Mary regarded Jesus as merely somehow saving her from being an innocent victim of, in some sense, "collateral damage" in a war between sinful mankind and God--a war in which (I take it you might say) she, herself, was not involved as a militant?

It would seem to divide "His people" (as in "He shall save His people from their sins") into two different constituents (i.e., Mary on the one hand, those of mankind (or, at least, those of the Hebrew nation) who aren't Mary on the other), and involve meaning two, quite different senses of "save from sins" which would be undistributable amongst the whole of "His people". So that, for instance, Joseph is saved from his own sins, while Mary is somehow saved from Joseph's sins, too.

I've not looked into it, but it occurs to me to wonder about what (if anything) "The Church" teaches regarding Mary's referring to Jesus as her Savior, in relation to the question of Mary's conception in her mother's womb. From my perspective, at least, it seems that to say Mary had to be sinless in order for sinless Christ to have been conceived in her womb is only to invite a further question as to how "sinless" Mary could have been conceived in her mother's womb without her mother, "St. Anne", having been sinless. (My guess is that the "Immaculate Conception" dogma was decreed at least in part to try to quell (amongst those who would heed it) a potential train of questioning in that vein, a series of questions as long as the length of the genealogical chain from Mary to her mother, to her mother's mother, to her mother's mother's mother, and so on up to Adam's wife, Eve. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.) But, I'm curious: Does Rome regard their idea of Mary as having been "immaculately conceived" in the womb of "St. Anne" as an explanation of why Mary calls Christ her Savior--Who saves His people from their sins? Like, specifically, as though Mary, by her "immaculate conception", was "saved" from her own mother's sins?

 

[Rodger]

Not to worship them.

Then why does every Catholic bow the knee when approaching those statues?

 

[Rodger]

@Idolater Mary was a sinner in need of a savior. She said so herself.

Luke 1:47 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Catholics believe lies. It's sad.

Absolutely correct!

 

[Idolater]

Then why does every Catholic bow the knee when approaching those statues?

We don't. Very many of us bend the knee (genuflect) toward the tabernacle when either entering or exiting the church. That's because we genuflect to Jesus, Who is really present in the Eucharist. As the Bible says.

 

[Rodger]

We don't. Very many of us bend the knee (genuflect) toward the tabernacle when either entering or exiting the church. That's because we genuflect to Jesus, Who is really present in the Eucharist. As the Bible says.

You are bowing to a statue whether it is Mary or Joseph or Jesus. All of those is Biblically unacceptable as they are graven images!

 

[Rodger]

@Idolater Mary was a sinner in need of a savior. She said so herself.

Luke 1:47 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Catholics believe lies. It's sad.

I would have to look it up, but to the best of my memory, I think that the Catholic church and its members obey 32 TRADITIONS which are NOT found in the Bible.

To name just a few......crossing themselves.
Bowing down to graven images.
Believing in the Assumption of Mary.
Believing in the sinless of Mary.
Believing in the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

 

[Rodger]

Like this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WinStupidPrizes/comments/167xznv
Anyway:

Another Joy of Catholicism: devotions. I was a cradle Evangelical, and if I were to put who I am into Catholic terms, I would say that I had a great devotion to the Evangelical Bible (which only has 66 books instead of the Catholic 73). I was obsessed with the Bible. If I were instead Catholic this would have resulted in me being a Scripture scholar. But instead I was an Evangelical.

This guy (below) is obsessed with Mary, but, he has guardrails, particularly the liturgy. This is why Catholic devotions are a joy because you can really "air out" your faith and not destroy your life with a slight misstep.

You're safe.

A "Misstep" is what God calls SIN my friend.

 

[Idolater]

(Continuing) Not wanting to clutter up another thread:

(As a Catholic (convert), as time goes on, I find Protestantism obsessed with thinking of Our Lady as defiled somehow, even though she was the ... I don't mean to be crass here, but ... the vehicle in which Our Lord was delivered onto the Earth from Heaven. Of course she was pure and undefiled ---- of course she was. That shouldn't be controversial. And that's why this strikes me as obsession.)

Was Mary a sinner?

They were all sinners.
They all walked in the flesh.
Walking in the Spirit, due to rebirth from God's seed, was not yet availble.

My point is that only a few could "follow God" 100% of the time before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Enoch, Elijah, and John the Baptist being among the few.
Since Jesus' resurrection, we all can "follow God" perfectly

Absolutely AMAZING! Some Protestants are SO OBSESSED with Mary's defilement that they'll even grant that certain men like Enoch and Noah (Genesis 6:9) could be sinless, but that Jesus's own mom was guilty as sin!

Note that Hoping is a cradle Catholic and so as such has full knowledge of his own bigotry and hostility toward Mary.

And yet ... as Catholics ... we know that she wants Hoping to experience grace and mercy, as the perfect mother, the only mother Jesus ever had (but not the only mother we have ever had, and not the only mother the Apostle John ever had either ---- basically Jesus is the only One with only one mom).

Our Lady is certainly one of the Joys of Catholicism.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

basically Jesus is the only One with only one mom)

King James Bible
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. ~ Jesus

 

[Idolater]

King James Bible
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. ~ Jesus

So therefore, Jesus didn't actually have a biological mother.

Plain.

 

[Hoping]

Absolutely AMAZING! Some Protestants are SO OBSESSED with Mary's defilement that they'll even grant that certain men like Enoch and Noah (Genesis 6:9) could be sinless, but that Jesus's own mom was guilty as sin!

Christians actually deplore idol worship.
Catholicism has turned Mary into an idol.
Mary was a woman.
Chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus by the Holy Spirit.
Husband of Joseph, and mother to several brothers and sisters of Jesus too.
She followed Jesus on His travels through Israel and Judea.

Note that Hoping is a cradle Catholic and so as such has full knowledge of his own bigotry and hostility toward Mary.

I used to carry a statue of Mary in my pocket at all times...with my cigarette lighter and pot pipe.
When I became a Christian, I threw all three in the dumpster by my apartment.
They were equally valueless.

And yet ... as Catholics ... we know that she wants Hoping to experience grace and mercy, as the perfect mother, the only mother Jesus ever had (but not the only mother we have ever had, and not the only mother the Apostle John ever had either ---- basically Jesus is the only One with only one mom).

Mary is in a grave somewhere awaiting the return of her Boy with His glorious angels to take vengeance on the earth.

Our Lady is certainly one of the Joys of Catholicism.

She was a woman.
That is all.

 

[Idolater]

Christians actually deplore idol worship.
Catholicism has turned Mary into an idol.
Mary was a woman.
Chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus by the Holy Spirit.
Husband of Joseph, and mother to several brothers and sisters of Jesus too.
She followed Jesus on His travels through Israel and Judea.

I used to carry a statue of Mary in my pocket at all times...with my cigarette lighter and pot pipe.
When I became a Christian, I threw all three in the dumpster by my apartment.
They were equally valueless.

lol. You'd have us ---- lol ---- believe that ... it was your devotion to Our Lady, that was the reason that your life was a mess ... and not the dope? lol. Come on lol. You cannot seriously think that we'd believe this? How stupid do you think we are lol? You were doing drugs! It's not your devotion to Mary that was the problem Hoping, I guarantee it was the drugs lol. I guarantee it lol!

Mary is in a grave somewhere awaiting the return of her Boy with His glorious angels to take vengeance on the earth.

She was a woman.
That is all.

Your hostility toward her is sad.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not to worship them.

Then what, exactly, is it that you do with those statues, icons, images, etc?

As a Catholic (convert), as time goes on, I find Protestantism obsessed

The Catholics are the ones who are obsessed with Mary, not Protestants.

with thinking of Our Lady [w]as defiled somehow, even though she was the ... I don't mean to be crass here, but ... the vehicle in which Our Lord was delivered onto the Earth from Heaven.

So what?

God can't use a woman who has sinned to be the vehicle for the coming of the Messiah?

Of course she was pure and undefiled ---- of course she was.

She was a virgin.

In that way, she was pure, undefiled.

But she was not sinless.

That shouldn't be controversial. And that's why this strikes me as obsession.

Supra.

(Trick question ---- there isn't one.)

Yes, there is.

I gave you the answer, and so has other people in this thread. I can't help that you don't want to acknowledge scripture, idolator.

Here it is again:

And Mary said:“My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me,And holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear HimFrom generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm;He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones,And exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things,And the rich He has sent away empty. He has helped His servant Israel,In remembrance of His mercy, As He spoke to our fathers,To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 1:46-55 - New King James Version

The Song of Mary - And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His...

www.biblegateway.com

So "all" there includes Jesus, right? Because Jesus was a man, right? And "all" must mean, "all men," if it means anything, right? I mean it cannot mean "not all men," right? It can't mean that. It means "all men," and Jesus is a man. Right?

"All [X]" rarely ever means woodenly literally "all [X]."

For example, "All Judea" came to be baptised by John, yet obviously, it wasn't woodenly literally the entire nation. The context determines the meaning, as is usually the case.

So what is the context of the "all" in Romans 3:23?

Spoiler

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.” But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - New King James Version

God’s Judgment Defended - What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not...

www.biblegateway.com

Clearly, Paul is not including Christ in that "all."

He's talking about "all humans, all sinners, all Jews and all Gentiles," and putting them opposed (grammatically speaking) to God, so that "all who believe" will be saved.

I'll start you on your reply: "Well no, you see ... " Rolleyes

You're trying to be funny, and I get it. People try to make jokes when they're embarrassed. As well you should be, because your entire position is a joke.

People play stupid games and win stupid prizes. Even the Hebrew people, Mary's own kin, played stupid games and won stupid prizes. Jesus needed to save Mary from the stupid prizes that her own people won for playing stupid games. It didn't require that she play stupid games, in order that she needed to be saved from stupid prizes.

This is called an ad hoc rescue device.

You're literally making stuff up in order to save your position.

Mary said:

And Mary said:“My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me,And holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear HimFrom generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm;He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones,And exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things,And the rich He has sent away empty. He has helped His servant Israel,In remembrance of His mercy, As He spoke to our fathers,To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 1:46-55 - New King James Version

The Song of Mary - And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, And holy is His...

www.biblegateway.com

Why do you think she meant anything other than that she herself needed to be saved?

She was but a lowly maidservant who recognized her need for a Savior. And God exalted her by making her the mother of the Messiah.

That doesn't mean she was "pure and undefiled" (in the way that you mean it: sinless), though she was definitely a virgin.

I haven't done it yet but I think searching for "play stupid games win stupid prizes" might be some funny results.

More attempted humor to cover up the fact that your position is a joke.

Absolutely AMAZING! Some Protestants are SO OBSESSED with Mary

Says the Catholic who just can't admit that Mary was a human like the rest of us...

's defilement

Defilement?

In what way?

that they'll even grant that certain men like Enoch and Noah (Genesis 6:9) could be sinless, but that Jesus's own mom was guilty as sin!

Hoping is one of those who believes that he stopped sinning the moment he believed.

Don't take his "outlier" position to be the norm.

Enoch, Noah, Mary, and every other human being that has ever lived and will ever live, are not "sinless." Only Christ is sinless.

Note that Hoping is a cradle Catholic and so as such has full knowledge of his own bigotry and hostility toward Mary.

I haven't seen any "hostility" towards Mary from Hoping.

Could you please elaborate?

And yet ... as Catholics ... we know that she wants Hoping

She doesn't know who Hoping is.

She probably can't even speak English.

Are you claiming that Mary is omnipresent and omniscient?

to experience grace and mercy, as the perfect mother,

She was far from perfect. She needed a Savior, after all. And even she made mistakes, as evidenced by the fact that both she and Joseph left Jesus at the temple once, thinking He was with the other...

the only mother Jesus ever had

Correct.

(but not the only mother we have ever had,

Mary is not my mother.

Nor is she yours.

And you say you don't idolize her...

and not the only mother the Apostle John ever had either

Taking care of your friend's mother at his request hardly seems like what the Catholics teach about Mary...

---- basically Jesus is the only One with only one mom).

I have two mothers, being adopted. My biological mother, who gave birth to me, and my mom, who raised me.

That's it.

Mary was Jesus's human mother, because He needed to be human to be able to pay for our sins.

Jesus asked John to take His mother as his own, to take care of her, since Jesus was literally on the cross dying for the world at that point.

Jesus did not ask the world to take Mary as their own.

Our Lady is certainly one of the Joys of Catholicism.

And you've turned her into an idol.

You'd have us believe that it was your devotion to Our Lady, that was the reason that your life was a mess ... and not the dope? Come on lol. You cannot seriously think that we'd believe this? How stupid do you think we are lol? You were doing drugs! It's not your devotion to Mary that was the problem Hoping, I guarantee it was the drugs lol. I guarantee it lol!

Obviously, the dope was likely a huge part of his sin.

But thinking Mary is worthy of being idolized is a far greater sin than destroying your body.

Your hostility toward her is sad.

Again, I haven't seen any hostility towards Mary from Hoping.

Where is this alleged hostility you speak of?

 

[Idolater]

You mean, like, Mary regarded Jesus as merely

No. I don't mean that she regarded or regards her Son as anything "merely."

somehow saving her from being an innocent victim of, in some sense, "collateral damage" in a war between sinful mankind and God--a war in which (I take it you might say) she, herself, was not involved as a militant?

I wouldn't put it that way because she crushes the head of the Devil, fulfilling the prophecy given to Eve. That's not exactly a civilian non-combatant.

It would seem to divide "His people" (as in "He shall save His people from their sins") into two different constituents (i.e., Mary on the one hand, those of mankind (or, at least, those of the Hebrew nation) who aren't Mary on the other), and involve meaning two, quite different senses of "save from sins" which would be undistributable amongst the whole of "His people". So that, for instance, Joseph is saved from his own sins, while Mary is somehow saved from Joseph's sins, too.

She can celebrate the coming of the Messiah and the coming of the Lord to save her people /nation /kin /family /neighbors /friends from their sins and from their physical mortal peril or danger, and even from the age. The age which Christ ushered in is an improvement over the age He shut.

There are different kinds of salvation in the Bible. Protestants agree with Catholics.

I've not looked into it, but it occurs to me to wonder about what (if anything) "The Church" teaches regarding Mary's referring to Jesus as her Savior, in relation to the question of Mary's conception in her mother's womb. From my perspective, at least, it seems that to say Mary had to be sinless in order for sinless Christ to have been conceived in her womb is only to invite a further question as to how "sinless" Mary could have been conceived in her mother's womb without her mother, "St. Anne", having been sinless. (My guess is that the "Immaculate Conception"

Correct.

dogma was decreed at least in part to try to quell (amongst those who would heed it) a potential train of questioning in that vein, a series of questions as long as the length of the genealogical chain from Mary to her mother, to her mother's mother, to her mother's mother's mother, and so on up to Adam's wife, Eve. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.)

There wasn't any controversy when the pope exercised the power of St. Peter's chair to declare the Immaculate Conception is true. It had been in the Apostolic Oral Tradition from the Apostolic era. Everybody in the know already knew it.

But, I'm curious: Does Rome regard their idea of Mary as having been "immaculately conceived" in the womb of "St. Anne" as an explanation of why Mary calls Christ her Savior--Who saves His people from their sins? Like, specifically, as though Mary, by her "immaculate conception", was "saved" from her own mother's sins?

That is an excellent way of seeing it. Yes, her preservation from original sin was logically due to ---- even though it was chronologically before ---- Christ's being her Son. Yes.

 

[JudgeRightly]

she crushes the head of the Devil, fulfilling the prophecy given to Eve. That's not exactly a civilian non-combatant.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" put all opposed to God.

Hence the need for a Savior.

Hence Mary calling God her Savior.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Mary was a sinner, in need of a Savior, because all have sinned, and God was her Savior, thus she called Him "my Savior."

She can celebrate the coming of the Messiah and the coming of the Lord to save her people /nation /kin /family /neighbors /friends

And herself

from their

And hers.

sins and from their

And hers.

physical mortal peril or danger, and even from the age. The age which Christ ushered in is an improvement over the age He shut.

There are different kinds of salvation in the Bible. Protestants agree with Catholics.

The problem is that your unstated assumption unwittingly falls into the same trap that the Israelites did.

Why would Mary be saved from something her father and mother did?

That implies that she would have otherwise been punished for something her parents did.

God explicitly condemns it and calls it unjust!

The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?​

“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.

“If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.

“If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
“As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.​

“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18 - New King James Version

A False Proverb Refuted - The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’? “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use...

www.biblegateway.com

If Mary never did anything wrong, as Catholics like yourself promote, then she is not in need of saving, period. "She shall surely live!"

Thus, when Mary sang:

"My soul magnifies the Lord,
"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
"For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." (Luke 1:46b-48)

She really means that God was her Savior. Not in saving her from everyone else, but her from herself.

There wasn't any controversy when the pope exercised the power of St. Peter's chair

Which doesn't exist.

to declare the Immaculate Conception is true.

I'd tell him the same thing I'd tell you.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

It had been in the Apostolic Oral Tradition from the Apostolic era.

But not in scripture, and thus is not guaranteed to be true.

And we know it to be false, because of what Mary herself said, and what Paul said.

Everybody in the know already knew it.

One cannot know something that is false.

That is an excellent way of seeing it. Yes, her preservation from original sin

"Original sin" is an unjust doctrine to begin with, for the reasons explained above.

It is inherently unjust to punish someone for someone else's sin!

Thus, this:

was logically due to ---- even though it was chronologically before ---- Christ's being her Son. Yes.

is moot, because Mary was not "preserved from 'original sin'" at all, because there was never any "original sin" to preserve her from.

 

[borntosurf]

Roman Catholicism claims that Mary remained a virgin but this is simply a tradition and not a portrait or scenario that exists in the scriptures.

but I question this claim made by the Catholic Church and look at what the Scriptures are saying

If the Angel Of The Lord - Gabriel, directly told Joseph he could take Mary as his wife and told him to not have any fear or worries about taking Mary as his wife -


having a marital husband and wife sexual relationship - this - was the entire point of this message from the Angel

Joseph was planning on putting away his fiancé and putting off the marriage because - Joseph was worried and hurt because in his mind Mary had already had sex with someone and in the mind of Joseph, Mary had cheated and had sex and had become pregnant.

Mary had cheated on him and committed adultery and fornicated and now was suddenly pregnant. !

Joseph was hurt, worried and even in fear and anxiety - his new wife was adulterous and had committed adultery against him

But the Angel of God knew exactly what Joseph was feeling and planning

- and the Angel told him " DO NOT FEAR " getting married and meaning SEXUAL RELATIONS because there was no sexual act between Mary and another man, the child conceived in His new { to be } wife was from the Spirit Holy.


why would God leave Mary and Joseph and the readers of the Bible to understand and be assured that a husband and wife relationship should be resumed without any concern or fear


If it was important for Joseph and Mary to not have marital relations why did God leave Joseph this message instead of just warning him that it would be disrespectful for to have a sexual relationship ?

this is simply Rome demanding that Mary should not be a wife to Joseph - not the demands of the messenger angel of God.

Mat 1:20 - " But while he thought on these things, behold "

- the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, -
fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: - for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. ​

:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
:25 And knew her not until - she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


we see 3 facts here

1. The angels assurance - husband and wife relationship should be resumed - with no concern or fear
2. Joseph accepted Mary as a wife - and married her
3. Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife - until she bore her firstborn son


even if Mary remained a virgin, the Scriptures place no value in the virginity of Mary

Also, Mary herself, was not guarding her virginity - she was planning to marry a husband and Joseph was hurt, worried and fearful because he believed his wife had cheated and fornicated against him -


THIS SEXUAL SITUATION - caused Joseph to begin plans to divorce Mary.

The angel of the Lord knew exactly what Joseph was thinking, as he was planning to divorce Mary because she had already had sexual relations with another man

as as he thought on these things "

- the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, -
fear not :​

in conclusion, the scriptures show that Joseph and Mary did stay together, even at 12 years after his birth Mary and Joseph are still married, still together as mother and father - together searching for Jesus when he disappears and is found in the temple


Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?

behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Although Mary and Joseph were not involved in the ministry of Jesus - they are mother and father, husband and wife / married - looking franticly for their lost son.

 

[Idolater]

Then what, exactly, is it that you do with those statues, icons, images, etc?

You won't even endorse Bob Enyart's (of happy memory) book on Dispensationalism but I have to answer for every mistake that every Catholic ever made? Is this the hill you want to die on?

For me the statues are three-dimensional pictures of family members who have passed on. If they are pictures or statues they are the same thing, they are in memory. I personally look at them and think about the Saint depicted and sometimes think about their Earthly relationship with Jesus and think about asking for their intercession and about Heaven and any number of other thoughts, but in no case am I even tempted to worship them, that's ridiculous on the surface.

The Catholics are the ones who are obsessed with Mary, not Protestants.

False. We are not obsessed with Our Lady, you Protestants are obsessed with taking her down a peg. That's what you're all obsessed with. I mean I get that Our Lady not being down a peg is Catholic, almost exclusively, but not if you look at historical Protestantism. All the first generation Protestants in the early 16th century all gave Our Lady the honor she deserves as the queen mother of Heaven and Earth. Obsession with taking her down a peg developed over time. You're probably not even aware of that.

So what?

There's no [w] there. " ... with thinking of Our Lady as defiled somehow ... " is correct.

God can't use a woman who has sinned to be the vehicle for the coming of the Messiah?

God can do whatever He wants. This isn't about what He can do, that's off-topic; it's about what He did.

She was a virgin.

In that way, she was pure, undefiled.

But she was not sinless.

"Saying it doesn't make it so." Ever.

Supra.

Supra.

Yes, there is.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

I gave you the answer, and so [have] other people in this thread.

Certainly there was an attempt. That's not what this is about though, about attempting to establish a thesis; it's about whether a Scripture positively impugns Our Lady as an objective sinner. This has not been demonstrated, proven, or shown to be the case. Your post here doesn't change it either, since we have already established that in your reading of the verse Jesus Our Lord is also guilty of sin, and that's just flat wrong, so we know that your way of reading the verse is also wrong, and any other fruit that tree produces should be suspect right from the start.

I can't help that you don't want to acknowledge scripture, idolator.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

Here it is again:

And Mary said:“My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

That doesn't necessarily mean she is admitting to being a sinner JR, I addressed that already.

For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;

Compared to Our Lord. Don't forget Our Lady is only the mother of Our Lord, she is not Our Lord or equal to Him. So of course her state is lower than His. Again; doesn't mean she's admitting to being a sinner. You imported that meaning. Eisegesis.

For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

We address her as the angel Gabriel addressed her, "Blessed art thou among women."

For He who is mighty has done great things for me,And holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear HimFrom generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm;He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones,And exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things,And the rich He has sent away empty. He has helped His servant Israel,In remembrance of His mercy, As He spoke to our fathers,To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

idk why you continued the quote. Seemed superfluous, is there something in this wall of text that you wanted me to pay attention to? You didn't highlight or bold anything. And none of it at first blush corroborates your contention.

"All [X]" rarely ever means woodenly literally "all [X]."

Is that a quote? I would like to see the context so I can evaluate if it's supposed to be ironic. Because on its face it's just meaninglessness. All X means All X, otherwise we wouldn't say "All X." We'd say some, or many, or most, but not All. We might even just say "one," or "all but one." But we wouldn't say, and neither would the Holy Spirit say (Who has spoken through the Prophets), "All" unless we mean "All." It does no good to even use the word All if All isn't all that All means.

We don't use "All" as an analogy or metaphor or figure of speech. The logical square of opposition would crumble and collapse and mean nothing if like you say "All rarely ever means woodenly literally All."

Square of opposition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So if it's somebody else's quote let's see a cite so we can see if it was intended as irony.

For example, "All Judea" came to be baptised by John, yet obviously, it wasn't woodenly literally the entire nation.

You're making my point for me. Thank you!

The context determines the meaning, as is usually the case.

So what is the context of the "all" in Romans 3:23?

" ... both Jews and Greeks ... there is no difference ... Jews only? ... Gentiles? Yes, ... Gentiles also ... "

Clearly, Paul is not including Christ in that "all."

Right. He's also clearly not necessarily including Our Lady. He's arguing that both Jews and Gentiles and not only Jews, are candidates for Our Lord's salvation. This is his thesis.

He's talking about "all humans, all sinners, all Jews and all Gentiles," and putting them opposed (grammatically speaking) to God, so that "all who believe" will be saved.

Supra.

You're trying to be funny, and I get it. People try to make jokes when they're embarrassed. As well you should be, because your entire position is a joke.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

This is called an ad hoc rescue device.

Prove it. Cite to source. And also, don't forget to not commit the appeal to authority fallacy in doing so, if you can.

You're literally making stuff up in order to save your position.

My position is under no threat, immediate or otherwise.
And, "Saying it doesn't make it so."

Mary said:

[requote from earlier in your post]

Why do you think she meant anything other than that she herself needed to be saved?

In the "ad hoc rescue device" I addressed this question already. I already answered. Asked and answered.

She was but a lowly maidservant who recognized her need for a Savior. And God exalted her by making her the mother of the Messiah.

That doesn't mean she was "pure and undefiled" (in the way that you mean it: sinless), though she was definitely a virgin.

It doesn't mean she wasn't, either.

More attempted humor to cover up the fact that your position is a joke.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

Says the Catholic who just can't admit that Mary was a human like the rest of us...

She was given special grace, that's what makes her special, she is special because of God.

Defilement?

In what way?

Making her a sinner, guilty of sin, blemished with sin.

Hoping is one of those who believes that he stopped sinning the moment he believed.

Don't take his "outlier" position to be the norm.

Enoch, Noah, Mary, and every other human being that has ever lived and will ever live, are not "sinless." Only Christ is sinless.

That's just a creed. "Saying it doesn't make it so." You're not quoting Scripture here, this is your interpretation. Enoch, Noah, John the Baptist; we have Scriptural reasons to believe they were all (uniquely) sinless.

I haven't seen any "hostility" towards Mary from Hoping.

Could you please elaborate?

Our Lady has been preserved from sin since her Immaculate Conception. Hoping knows of this creed, so when he accuses her, he knows exactly what he's doing.

She doesn't know who Hoping is.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

She probably can't even speak English.

She spoke Spanish in Guadalupe.

Are you claiming that Mary is omnipresent and omniscient?

She is among the cloud of witnesses. Hebrews 12:1

She was far from perfect. She needed a Savior, after all.

"Saying it doesn't make it so."

And even she made mistakes, as evidenced by the fact that both she and Joseph left Jesus at the temple once, thinking He was with the other...

Are you saying this was a sin?

Correct.



Mary is not my mother.

Nor is she yours.

She's the mother of all who believe.

And you say you don't idolize her...

Non sequitur.

Taking care of your friend's mother

"your friend?" Are you serious? "your friend." "your friend." AMR.

at his request hardly seems like what the Catholics teach about Mary...

No we actually teach that the Apostle John was the most beloved of all His Disciples, and Him giving Our Lady to St. John is the positive proof of it.

I have two mothers, being adopted. My biological mother, who gave birth to me, and my mom, who raised me.

That's it.

Supra. Our Lady is the mother of all who believe in part because from Good Friday to Easter she was the ONLY Christian on Earth. Not even any of Our Lord's Disciples believed in Him during that time, when He was in the tomb, just Our Lady. Only her. She was the entire Church Militant from His Passion to His Resurrection. So she is our mother in the faith.

Mary was Jesus's human mother, because He needed to be human to be able to pay for our sins.

Jesus asked John to take His mother as his own, to take care of her, since Jesus was literally on the cross dying for the world at that point.

Jesus did not ask the world to take Mary as their own.



And you've turned her into an idol.

Lying is a sin.

Obviously, the dope was likely a huge part of his sin.

But thinking Mary is worthy of being idolized is a far greater sin than destroying your body.

Good thing I'm not doing that then, as a Catholic.

Again, I haven't seen any hostility towards Mary from Hoping.

Where is this alleged hostility you speak of?

Supra.

 

[Idolater]

https://x.com/BldgCatholicMen/status/1714962049329987652?s=20