The Jesus Club

[iouae]

Your body, however, like everyone else's will be raised at the resurrection, either to eternal life or unto damnation.

My body is irrelevant. Some folks are eaten by worms, some cremated. God gives us a new body.

Why do you think my current body is the same body I will have in future?

Jesus body disappeared from the tomb, but Jesus looked different enough in His new human body that His closest friends did not recognise Him. He was not given back His old body.

 

[meshak]

My body is irrelevant. Some folks are eaten by worms, some cremated. God gives us a new body.

Why do you think my current body is the same body I will have in future?

Jesus body disappeared from the tomb, but Jesus looked different enough in His new human body that His closest friends did not recognise Him. He was not given back His old body.

many Christians don't agree with your reasoning.

 

[clefty]

Nice quote Glorydaz.

What if, like Abel's blood was crying out, this is a literary technique, not a literal description?
Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

I highlighted where they were told to rest. To me that reads "soul sleep". And like Abel's blood cried out figuratively, their blood is crying out in the same way, while they sleep in death.

Does this sound possible to you?

How does a soul cry out? No lungs no breath no mouth to direct the air no vocal chords...

they always use this text about souls under the altar...are they in a box? beside each other on top of each other? Can a soul even wear a white robe?

Some of course find this scoffing but imagine the poor rich man in hell now for 2000+ years...you don’t think he hasn’t come up with another request?

Or maybe he just continues to talk to the others on the other side randomly about subjects related to anything beyond his current burning in Hell situation?

Besides many people DID come to believe after having seen the dead resurrected...was Abraham unfair in his answer to him...that his family wouldn't believe one risen from the dead?

Maybe the rich man could finally see his family on the other side of that gulf now all saved and in saying hellos over the roaring fires they would tell the poor rich man...”yes we read your documentary...bummer your request was denied...so we changed our ways and well we were saved but enough about us...so...well...how are you?”

Awkward...but at least they get to talk for all eternity...or?

 

[glorydaz]

Nice quote Glorydaz.

What if, like Abel's blood was crying out, this is a literary technique, not a literal description?
Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

I highlighted where they were told to rest. To me that reads "soul sleep". And like Abel's blood cried out figuratively, their blood is crying out in the same way, while they sleep in death.

Does this sound possible to you?

No, because Revelation doesn't say blood is crying out.

This is talking about the souls of those who were slain. Man has a body, soul, and spirit. We are not just a body of flesh. Why don't you believe what is so clearly written?

1 Thessalonians 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

To you rest reads soul sleep?
Does, "Ye shall find rest unto your soul," mean soul sleep, too?

Matt. 11:28-29 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.​

We enter into rest when we're saved....when we've ceased from our own efforts and rest IN HIM. This "rest a little longer" means something....and it sure isn't soul sleep. It speaks of that "another day" which is the day of SALVATION.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.​

 

[glorydaz]

My body is irrelevant. Some folks are eaten by worms, some cremated. God gives us a new body.

Why do you think my current body is the same body I will have in future?

Never said it would be the same flesh and blood body.
Try to stick to the facts.

Jesus body disappeared from the tomb, but Jesus looked different enough in His new human body that His closest friends did not recognise Him. He was not given back His old body.

He wasn't?

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.​

 

[jsanford108]

Who else writes that complicatedly?

Internal and external evidence points to Paul as authoring Hebrews. Good, and humorous point.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[glorydaz]

How does a soul cry out? No lungs no breath no mouth to direct the air no vocal chords...

Do you have to open your mouth in order to cry out? To the LORD?

Psalm 107:19 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.​

 

[glorydaz]

Internal and external evidence points to Paul as authoring Hebrews. Good, and humorous point.

I don't agree.....and I am not alone.

 

[patrick jane]

Never said it would be the same flesh and blood body.
Try to stick to the facts.



He wasn't?

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.​

Yep, no blood.

Luke 24:39 KJV -

Ephesians 5:30 KJV -

 

[iouae]

How does a soul cry out? No lungs no breath no mouth to direct the air no vocal chords...

they always use this text about souls under the altar...are they in a box? beside each other on top of each other? Can a soul even wear a white robe?

Some of course find this scoffing but imagine the poor rich man in hell now for 2000+ years...you don’t think he hasn’t come up with another request?

Or maybe he just continues to talk to the others on the other side randomly about subjects related to anything beyond his current burning in Hell situation?

Besides many people DID come to believe after having seen the dead resurrected...was Abraham unfair in his answer to him...that his family wouldn't believe one risen from the dead?

Maybe the rich man could finally see his family on the other side of that gulf now all saved and in saying hellos over the roaring fires they would tell the poor rich man...”yes we read your documentary...bummer your request was denied...so we changed our ways and well we were saved but enough about us...so...well...how are you?”

Awkward...but at least they get to talk for all eternity...or?

Clefty - you have a beautiful mind

How many souls can one fit under an altar is like asking how many angels one can fit on the head of a pin. Can souls fit inside one another like Russian dolls? What are they doing under the altar for all these millennia? It does not sound as happy as I would have expected it to sound in heaven, if all the souls are doing is crying out for revenge, and not getting it for millennia. What happened to the soul's spirit? Is it somewhere else? etc. etc.

I thought I thought out of the box, but Clefty, your mind takes me to places I did not dream existed

And I love these lines "Awkward...but at least they get to talk for all eternity".
"Or maybe he just continues to talk to the others on the other side randomly about subjects related to anything beyond his current burning in Hell situation?"
LOL

 

[jsanford108]

I don't agree.....and I am not alone.

I know this is off topic; would you like to PM about it, or possibly make a new thread (since you are not alone)?

And I think you are doing a good job discussing the immortal soul.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[glorydaz]

I know this is off topic; would you like to PM about it, or possibly make a new thread (since you are not alone)?

And I think you are doing a good job discussing the immortal soul.

You can start a thread if you want to. I'm pretty sure there is already a thread on this topic (if it hasn't been purged for the sake of space and house cleaning). I don't know how to search through to find it, though.

 

[iouae]

Jsanford, look at the first times "soul"/nephesh/(H5315) is used in the Bible.

Does this indicate an immortal/spiritual component or a mortal one?

Gen 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath H5315 life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here "moving creature having soul/nephesh life".
Nephesh is not translated as "life"
We are told aquatic creatures have "souls" in the very first place "nephesh" is used.
It should be case closed that "soul" refers to something immortal.


Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. H5315

Is not man's "soul" identical, and right there along with every other creature's "soul"?

Nephesh simply means "animation". But not spiritual animation. Earthly animation.

I oppose conspiracy theories, but I detect a conspiracy here. Notice how "soul" is mentioned first for man, but before and after, animals have "souls" but in their case it is not translated as "soul". This reflects the inherent bias KJV translators had that only man has an immortal soul.

Glorydaz Here is a post proving that animals too are souls, so nothing immortal in the soul.

And our body is not immortal.

So that leaves the "spirit" = "ruach" = "breath" which God breathed into man and he became a living soul, just like the animals. So "spirit" = "breath" - nothing immortal here.

 

[clefty]

Clefty - you have a beautiful mind

How many souls can one fit under an altar is like asking how many angels one can fit on the head of a pin. Can souls fit inside one another like Russian dolls? What are they doing under the altar for all these millennia? It does not sound as happy as I would have expected it to sound in heaven, if all the souls are doing is crying out for revenge, and not getting it for millennia. What happened to the soul's spirit? Is it somewhere else? etc. etc.

I thought I thought out of the box, but Clefty, your mind takes me to places I did not dream existed

And I love these lines "Awkward...but at least they get to talk for all eternity".
"Or maybe he just continues to talk to the others on the other side randomly about subjects related to anything beyond his current burning in Hell situation?"
LOL

HalleluYah

All glory and praise be to Him. Years of prayer and study and discussion have taught me it is best to have an open mind like that of a child...testing all things holding on to which is good...

Praise be I have been blessed with many wonderful mentors starting with my parents who raised me with a hunger for the Word....full of humor flexibility and perseverance...they spoke multiple languages and loved language and conversation...words matter...

And as we had our sabbatismos we would sit around for hours and discuss as we do here with bibles and concordances passed around...what a joyous rest keeping it was...a small glimpse of “on earth as it is in heaven”...here...and in this life...weekly

http://www.rbap.net/some-thoughts-on-the-remaining-sabbatismos-for-the-people-of-god-heb-49/

Both of them are elderly my mother with a terminal disease so it is refreshing to return to this death thingy...prayerfully she awaits her final sleep to await the last trump...certainly tired of waiting for this one she jokes...LOL

 

[clefty]

Glorydaz Here is a post proving that animals too are souls, so nothing immortal in the soul.

And our body is not immortal.

So that leaves the "spirit" = "ruach" = "breath" which God breathed into man and he became a living soul, just like the animals. So "spirit" = "breath" - nothing immortal here.

Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. Ps. 150:6

Cuz well, if we don't...the stones will start to...

 

[daqq]

I don't agree.....and I am not alone.

Yaakob haTzaddik, a certain one clothed in the pure white linen kittel of the Kohen to the foot, having the inkhorn of a Scribe at his side, that is, a Scribe after the order of Enoch, the first Scribe. Yhuda Levi-Mattithyahu is his brother, (sons of AlphaYahu).

 

[iouae]

HalleluYah

All glory and praise be to Him. Years of prayer and study and discussion have taught me it is best to have an open mind like that of a child...testing all things holding on to which is good...

Praise be I have been blessed with many wonderful mentors starting with my parents who raised me with a hunger for the Word....full of humor flexibility and perseverance...they spoke multiple languages and loved language and conversation...words matter...

And as we had our sabbatismos we would sit around for hours and discuss as we do here with bibles and concordances passed around...what a joyous rest keeping it was...a small glimpse of “on earth as it is in heaven”...here...and in this life...weekly

http://www.rbap.net/some-thoughts-on-the-remaining-sabbatismos-for-the-people-of-god-heb-49/

Both of them are elderly my mother with a terminal disease so it is refreshing to return to this death thingy...prayerfully she awaits her final sleep to await the last trump...certainly tired of waiting for this one she jokes...LOL

I hope things go well for you and your Mother over this period. It's not an easy time. And its certainly not an easy time for a dying parent's children.

 

[clefty]

I hope things go well for you and your Mother over this period. It's not an easy time. And its certainly not an easy time for a dying parent's children.

Thank you...appreciate that...

death...pray only this one and not a second...His Will be done

HalleluYah...

And also blessings on you and yours...enjoy as much as possible...so we’ll have much to retell

 

[jsanford108]

Here we go, Iouae:

Let's start with the 4 beasts/living creatures which support a clear glass firmament on which God's throne sits above the stones of fire. Are they spirit beings or resurrected saints?

I would say that they are "spiritual beings," yet in a physical form. They are not saints, nor angels; however, they could very well be angelic beings.

Next jsanford, do the seven spirits sound to you like a description of dead people?

Rev 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

And if beasts and spirits are clearly not raised saints, then the elders mentioned among them, why on earth would they be raised saints and not just part of heaven's population.

4 Beasts, 7 spirits, 24 elders, archangels Gabriel and Michael - all created spirits. To what end?

Heb 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

I do not think that the beasts or angels are saints (souls of humans). Angels are ministering spirits, yes. However, that is quite different from human capacity for ministry. One only need to look at the plethora of examples throughout Scripture to see how angels surpass humanity in their absolute ministry.

In fact, the 7 "Spirits of God" seem to correspond to the seven churches mentioned in the first chapter of Revelation. After all, they were "sent to the ends of the earth."

This is just idiom for lock, stock and two smoking barrels = one gun = completely.

Nothing immortal here.)

What context clues point to this being an idiom?

Jsanford, look at the first times "soul"/nephesh/(H5315) is used in the Bible.

Does this indicate an immortal/spiritual component or a mortal one?

Gen 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath H5315 life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here "moving creature having soul/nephesh life".
Nephesh is not translated as "life"
We are told aquatic creatures have "souls" in the very first place "nephesh" is used.
It should be case closed that "soul" refers to something immortal.


Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. H5315

Is not man's "soul" identical, and right there along with every other creature's "soul"?

If this is your argument, then humans are no different from the creatures that roam the earth. What is there to differentiate man from beast?

Nephesh simply means "animation". But not spiritual animation. Earthly animation.

I oppose conspiracy theories, but I detect a conspiracy here. Notice how "soul" is mentioned first for man, but before and after, animals have "souls" but in their case it is not translated as "soul". This reflects the inherent bias KJV translators had that only man has an immortal soul.

I agree that the KJV translators did have an inherent bias (this coming from someone who practically cut teeth on the KJV). I notice though that you are specifically remaining in the OT for this explanation. My guess is, that is because the NT uses the word "psyche." Granted, we are switching to Greek composition with the NT, so I accept that.

But let us further examine the context of the particular Genesis passage. When God breathes into man's nostrils, God's breath is "neshemah." At no other point has God endowed creation with "neshmah." However, with man, God does, and man becomes "a chay nephesh." Thus, we immediately see the differentiation between mans' "nephesh" and that of the beasts'.

So, even with your very scholastic point, further contextual analysis demonstrates that man's soul is much different from that of the beasts'.

Let us also keep in mind traditional Judaic beliefs, which was relative to their time: "souls" did not immediately ascend to heaven, nor to hell. Yet, immediately post-Christ, Christians are proclaiming that this is the case. So, what is the difference? Again, the idea that souls did indeed "sleep" until Christ came, for they could have no inheritance with God without Jesus. However, once Christ rose, He took the souls who He witnessed to (and who believed) in His three days with Him to Heaven. Thus, allowing for future souls to avoid "sleep," be judged, and ascend to their inheritance. This would account for the multitude in heaven. It would account for the various quotes of "spirit" and "soul" by the NT authors.

 

[iouae]

But let us further examine the context of the particular Genesis passage. When God breathes into man's nostrils, God's breath is "neshemah." At no other point has God endowed creation with "neshmah." However, with man, God does, and man becomes "a chay nephesh." Thus, we immediately see the differentiation between mans' "nephesh" and that of the beasts'.

Thanks for the reply.

Looking at Strongs, the very next time that "neshemah" is used is Gen 7:22...

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath H5397 of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath H5397 of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

That "all" having "neshemah" is all creatures. Here are the verses in context.

Gen 7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Gen 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

So "neshemah" is shared by man and beast.

The wisest man on earth (besides Christ) confirms this saying...

Ecc 3:18
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

You might say that verse 21 is differentiating man breath from beast breath. It is not. Solomon just said they are the same, and he is QUESTIONING, and CASTING DOUBT ON the idea that the breath/spirit of man goes up while the breath/spirit of beasts goes down.

We know this because he just said "all go to one place" and that place is "dust".

So apparently, back then, like today, folks were trying to say there was a difference between the fate of man and beast after death, and Solomon says there is not.

This may shock you. It does not shock me.

I know that we are just data, a memory in God's mind, and He can put us back together again just from memory. He does not need any spiritual component to do so, and, in fact, there is no spiritual component to man. Soul is not spiritual. Spirit in man is not spiritual but simply "breath".