Look at all of the scripture and Testimony of Messiah himself which you have already rejected: and you think that something so complex as that discussion can be had with you? You have already rejected way too much and revealed that you are not even willing to take the scripture at face value and believe the surface text whenever it disagrees with your own private beloved understanding, (1Sam28:11-19). Moreover herein alone you have already denied the Testimony in Mat8:11-12, Mat17:2-3, Mrk9:2-4, Luk9:30-31, Luk13:28-29, Luk16:19-31, Luk17:1-2, Mat22:31-32, Mrk12:26-27, Luk20:37-44, and Mat27:51-53, (which is only what I can think of off-hand at the moment but there is probably more). However, since I know what you will do if I do not answer, I will give you my answer knowing that you will probably never understand it: Mat11:13, Acts 2:29, (the proper understanding of ετελευτησεν and μνημα according to the Testimony, and therefore the proper understanding of the statement therein), Mat27:51-53, and the proper understanding of Heb11:39-40, (which you are not going to get from English translation surface texts but only by way of and according to the Testimony and Doctrine of the Master).
The Jesus Club
- Thread starter iouae
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Look at all of the scripture and Testimony of Messiah himself which you have already rejected: and you think that something so complex as that discussion can be had with you? You have already rejected way too much and revealed that you are not even willing to take the scripture at face value and believe the surface text whenever it disagrees with your own private beloved understanding, (1Sam28:11-19). Moreover herein alone you have already denied the Testimony in Mat8:11-12, Mat17:2-3, Mrk9:2-4, Luk9:30-31, Luk13:28-29, Luk16:19-31, Luk17:1-2, Mat22:31-32, Mrk12:26-27, Luk20:37-44, and Mat27:51-53, (which is only what I can think of off-hand at the moment but there is probably more). However, since I know what you will do if I do not answer, I will give you my answer knowing that you will probably never understand it: Mat11:13, Acts 2:29, (the proper understanding of ετελευτησεν and μνημα according to the Testimony, and therefore the proper understanding of the statement therein), Mat27:51-53, and the proper understanding of Heb11:39-40, (which you are not going to get from English translation surface texts but only by way of and according to the Testimony and Doctrine of the Master).
glorydaz
Well-known member
None were in heaven before Jesus ascended there. You simply don't understand anything about the place of the dead prior to our Lord's ascension. In fact, it doesn't appear you understand much about anything, from what I'm seeing.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I WAIT in the doctor's office. I WAIT in line at the DMV.
I can't believe you think waiting refers to sleep.
I don't wait in bed for eight hours every night. :chuckle:
I suppose if he wants to wait with his rotting carcass when it is laid six feet under and watch the worms eat him that is his prerogative. :idunno: :shut: :chuckle:
As for me, doesn't sound like much fun being a member of his version of the "Jesus Club".
So the Buddhist and all "others" just get "wiped out" while you get eternal life waiting around in your grave "sleeping" as the worms eat your rotting carcass? If I was a non-believer or the Buddhist I know what I would have said to you now that I know a little more about what your version of "The Jesus Club" really means. :chuckle:
Originally Posted by iouae
Would you say this is a more-or-less accurate portrayal of Christianity, and what it takes to receive eternal life?
If you mean happiness as in a willingness to wait around and watch the worms eat your carcass while you are planted six feet under, um, no, not a very accurate portrayal imho.
The word rendered spirit in the passage quoted in your link, (1Sam 28:13), is not a spirit but an elohim, (see here). That changes everything. The author of your link simply thinks the same way you do and cherry picked a version to support a mindset.
glorydaz
Well-known member
He doesn't understand that this body of flesh is merely the tent in which we dwell here on earth. We are so much more than a body. We are soul and spirit. We are mind, will, emotions, conscience, being.
I'm always amazed when it isn't clearly seen just from the verses that have been presented so far....much less the mountain of evidences that have not yet been explored.
thanks...still havent got an answer as to where are the stories of Lazerus’s four days either in heaven or hell...or now I guess there is another place...lol...
Besides Him there are 9 other biblical accounts of people being raised from the dead and NOT ONE PEEP from any of them...
Any story they would tell would be big news and PROOF TEXTS for the afterlife...but nothing...
You would think of all people He would go straight to heaven but even the day Mary met Him He told her He hadn’t ascended yet...odd that...
As for Samuel’s apparition coming up out of the earth when that is where hell is...yeah that is odd too...maybe satan cant counterfeit a person descending from above...
yes good observations this counterfeiting...add to that the concept of hell and its eternal tortures and you have real motivation to keep people in line...
Two birds with one stone satan got with this 1) cheap sentimental comfort that grandma is in heaven now watching us and praying for us and we can pray to others too and 2) and the terror and guilt of doing something to get us thrown into forever fire...
This dogma of course leads to vast amounts of idols of the dead to be prayed at and of course indulgences to pay to minimize the refining times...
It just snow balls into further evil...
Not sure any of them understood death at this time...hence the surprise and disbelief of Satan that after his rebellion in heaven and leading 1/3 away...he was rewarded a planet and now these poor folks will be terminated...if they disobey...
Nothing prepared the universe to see that first blood drawn by the creator on His own creation...and for them?
Well good luck here on this thread...you seemed to have kicked a real hornets nest with this one...
I am not surprised at the ugly tone its taken...we know what happens to messengers when the message is unwanted...
It was real torment He suffered before His death...”why hast thou forsaken me!”...is not the anguished cry of of One believing He is going straight home...
Poor medium now she saw gods ascending...big deal... did He not say we are gods? Judging even angels...
You dont think Satan knows this? He was there...
As for the old man in a robe Saul perceived to be Samuel...how many times did Saul get it wrong? Actually the problem isnt it...WHAT SAUL PERCEIVED...that was what got him into this trouble in the first place and now he is perceiving even more things wrongly...LOL
Why did Samuel ask why? I mean, he should have know who called him up and for what reason if...you know, he was alive conscience and aware as to the going ons in the world of the living...
And being a faithful servant of Yah why would he continue to speak with Saul knowing Yah abandoned him?
Satan was right, what was permitted by Yah was Saul’s final end to the philistines...not MAYBE getting to do talk to dead people...what is abominable by whoring with one engaged in spiritism...
Samuel concludes that “tomorrow you and your sons will be with me”...hmmmm...now is that in heaven or hell or jewish purgatory?
Or dead...not knowing anything
iouae
Well-known member
He is still asleep
Exactly. David is still asleep.
As Paul confirms when he says...
Heb 11:39
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Glorydaz, do you believe Paul when he lists all the faithful from the OT and says that without us (Paul and Co.) they would not be made perfect or resurrected in a spirit body?
When?
1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The last trump has not sounded.
And Daqq, why would I worry if my body is consumed by worms or if I end up as shark droppings at the bottom of the ocean? I am dead and unconscious, and at the last trump I will be raised incorruptible.
iouae
Well-known member
Yes, no mention of near-death experiences in the Bible, where they saw the light, went to walk the streets of gold and talk talk to Jesus, then got put back on earth to finish their commission of collecting commission.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't know why you say Paul wrote Hebrews. :idunno:
They won't be resurrected before the resurrection of the dead (resurrection, of course, speaks of the body only).
Resurrection only applies to the body....not the soul or spirit of a man.
Right, and the resurrection has not yet occurred. The souls of the saints are with the Lord, and have been since our Lord's ascension into Heaven.
If you're dead and unconscious, you'll be raised to eternal damnation. :sigh:
Especially from the ones Peter and Paul raised...these were after the ascension that seems to be the gate that allows them all in to their reward ahead of the rest of us it seems..what’s a couple thousand years between brothers I guess...
But again...nothing from these two too...their being resurrected was a hit to be sure...but no testimony, no witness nothing about being on abraham’s bosom...
oh wait why would Peter and Paul even do that...arent they in heaven and in a better place? Poor things just when poor Dorcas all ready to enjoy her REST and well POOF back to earth and bills to pay...lol
glorydaz
Well-known member
It's a shame you scoff at God's Holy Scripture. :nono:
The medium speaks of Samuel a "prophet" ascending. Prophets spoke for God just as the Judges did, which is why they were referred to as "gods".
How do you know this?
All conjecture on your part. Made up.
Wrong, there is no knowledge of what goes on in the world of the living.
God clearly allowed Samuel to hear Saul's plea. Until Saul was dead, he would be allowed to turn to God for His mercy, and God was well aware of Samuel's love of Saul.
In the underworld ....the place of the dead, with it's two sections. Just as our Lord described in Luke 16. Too bad you continue to accuse our Lord of preaching a Jewish fable instead of the truth.
glorydaz
Well-known member
More scoffing. :nono:
The Lord knew Lazarus would be raised, just as those others were raised. Therefore, they waited in their body of flesh (not even the first bit of corruption to their body of flesh). Did Lazarus stink or was he rotted at all? Of course not. He had not yet moved on to the place of the dead.
iouae
Well-known member
Who else writes that complicatedly?
You keep saying that, but which scripture says that?
So the bad "soul sleep" but the good are currently with the Lord in heaven?
Or are the bad in hell now?
Who else writes that complicatedly?
You keep saying that, but which scripture says that?
So the bad "soul sleep" but the good are currently with the Lord in heaven?
Or are the bad in hell now?
Yes the bad are like the rich man talking to the ones on the other side still...the list of demands has grown...now from a drop of water its become milk shakes...some A/C’s...and a helicopter with a full tank of gas...no police ok? Lol
glorydaz
Well-known member
Who else writes that complicatedly?
Perhaps it's only complicated because you don't understand what is being written.
Paul's style is all his own.
Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Hades, you mean? Or shall we just say the place of the dead?
I was giving you an out....since you insist you will be unconscious.
Your body, however, like everyone else's will be raised at the resurrection, either to eternal life or unto damnation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Mocking the very words of our Lord and Saviour. :nono:
iouae
Well-known member
Nice quote Glorydaz.
What if, like Abel's blood was crying out, this is a literary technique, not a literal description?
Gen 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
I highlighted where they were told to rest. To me that reads "soul sleep". And like Abel's blood cried out figuratively, their blood is crying out in the same way, while they sleep in death.
Does this sound possible to you?