Theology Club: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

[Jerry Shugart]

Explaining why a man needs a wife, doesn't mean an unmarried believer will have sex outside of marriage.

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Cor.7:1-2).​

If doing that sin was impossible for a Christian then Paul wouldn't speak of avoiding it. You can't avoid something that can't happen. And here is what Paul tells believers about that sin:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

Do you still deny that sinning defiles a Christian?

 

[glorydaz]

Let us look at the following verse again:

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Cor.7:1-2).​

If doing that sin was impossible for a Christian then Paul wouldn't speak of avoiding it. You can't avoid something that can't happen. And here is what Paul tells believers about that sin:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

Do you still deny that sinning defiles a Christian?

I deny that believers can be charged with sin at all, and Paul doesn't use the term. We have been delivered from the law....are not under the law for righteousness...been freed from the law of sin and death....dead to sin....etc.

There are many things in this world we are to avoid. Avoid over eating...it is not profitable or expedient. Avoid doing anything that could lead to chastening from the Lord, which would only be wise. I'm convinced believers have no desire to do anything that isn't right, but we aren't defiled when we fall short in some area of our life. Paul pairs the word "defiled" with "unbelieving" for good reason.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I deny that believers can be charged with sin at all, and Paul doesn't use the term. We have been delivered from the law....are not under the law for righteousness...been freed from the law of sin and death....dead to sin....etc.

We are not talking about a believer being charged with sin because Romans 4:8 makes it plain that sins will not be imputed to believers. However, the subject from the beginning of our discussion revolved around 1 John 1:9.

With the following verse in view can you understand that fornication leads to a believer becoming defiled?:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

 

[glorydaz]

We are not talking about a believer being charged with sin because Romans 4:8 makes it plain that sins will not be imputed to believers. However, the subject from the beginning of our discussion revolved around 1 John 1:9.

With the following verse in view can you understand that fornication leads to a believer becoming defiled?:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

If I understood 1 John 1:9 as you do, then I would agree.
But, I don't, as we've discussed in the past.


Confession of sins was necessary under the Law, as John's listeners were aware. However, John speaks of those who SAY they are in the Light....those who claim what they do not have, so John is talking about how one tell whether a person is only claiming to believe. Under the law...such evidences could be seen.

Leviticus 5:5-6
And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.​

However, there are no IF's in Paul's Gospel of Grace. We are cleansed of ALL OUR SINS when we believe. We don't have to keep bringing our lambs to the altar. The Lord is faithful to forgive all our trespasses the moment we believe. Period. There is no IF we confess there.

Can you imagine if we had to confess all our faults lest we be defiled? I can, and it's called LAW and NOT GRACE. It's called BONDAGE and NOT LIBERTY. Rather than confess our "SINS", we give THANKS that we have been forgiven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If I understood 1 John 1:9 as you do, then I would agree.
But, I don't, as we've discussed in the past.

The following words are addressed to Christians:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

Can you understand that in regard to a Christian's personal sanctification that if a Christian commits fornication then he becomes defiled?

 

[glorydaz]

The following words are addressed to Christians:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thess.4:3).​

Can you understand that in regard to a Christian's personal sanctification that if a Christian commits fornication then he becomes defiled?

I don't agree that believers can ever be "defiled", but are clean every whit.

Think of it, Jerry. If we can be defiled, then we would walk around in a constant state of defilement. What line would you draw for what defiles us and what doesn't? Am I defiled when I lie to someone? Am I defiled when I covet something that isn't mine? Must I confess everything I do in order to not be defiled?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't agree that believers can ever be "defiled", but are clean every whit.

So a Christian who commits fornication is clean every whit?

 

[glorydaz]

So a Christian who commits fornication is clean every whit?

I'll ask you again. Where do you draw the line? Fornication? Lying? Gluttony? Drunkenness?

Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Do we draw the line at physical acts or do we include thoughts as well?

Are we clean or are we defiled? I ask this in all seriousness, Jerry, because there has to be some definite line in order to be "defiled".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'll ask you again. Where do you draw the line? Fornication? Lying? Gluttony? Drunkenness?

The Bible tells us what sins are. Are you actually saying that if a Christian commits fornication then he hasn't sinned?

Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Do we draw the line at physical acts or do we include thoughts as well?

His words there were with the coming earthly kingdom in view.

Are we clean or are we defiled? I ask this in all seriousness, Jerry, because there has to be some definite line in order to be "defiled".

When a Christian sins he becomes defiled. If it is impossible why would Paul tell Christians the following:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

According to you a Christian cannot cleanse himself of anything because his sins do not defile him.

 

[DAN P]

Sure it is!

All of the first century Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ just like all of the Gentile believers. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was saved by believing the gospel of the Kingdom but nonetheless Paul said that both were "one." You say that they were "two."

Besides John told the believers that they have been given eternal life, and that life "is in the Son":

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

These Jewish Christians are told that the eternal life which has been given to them is 'in" the Son. This can only be in regard to how the sinner is made "alive together with Christ":

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

Here we read that those who are made alive with Him and are seated with Him in the heavenly places. And that is exactly what the following passages from the Hebrew epistles are speaking of:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb.10:19-20).​

It is certain that the words "the holiest" are not referring to the earthly throne under the law because only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year. So the throne spoken of can only be the heavenly throne and these Hebrew Christians are told to come boldly to that throne. They have a heavenly calling just like all of the members of the Body of Christ:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

Hi Jerry and Acts 18:26-28 that Apollos is NOW after believing verse 26 is NOW a Grace believer AS verse 27 says , was now hepling the ones HAVING BELIEVED BY Grace !!

That is why 1 Cor 3:6 as they are all on the same page !!

Was Apollos Water Baptized or did Apollos Repent , did Apollos speak in TONGUES , THE answer is NO !!

Any one that believe still have one foot in the Kingdom Program !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Jerry and Acts 18:26-28 that Apollos is NOW after believing verse 26 is NOW a Grace believer AS verse 27 says , was now hepling the ones HAVING BELIEVED BY Grace !!

You overlook the fact that he was first saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom. And by the teaching within the Neo-MAD community that would forever ban him from being in the Body of Christ. But what we read in the following passage indicates that he was in the Body of Christ:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

As we see at 1 Corinthians 12:13 Jews were indeed baptized into the Body of Christ and there is no evidence that only some of the believing Jews were so baptized. Why do you think that only some of them were baptized into the Body but not all of them?

 

[DAN P]

You overlook the fact that he was first saved by believing the gospel of the kingdom. And by the teaching within the Neo-MAD community that would forever ban him from being in the Body of Christ. But what we read in the following passage indicates that he was in the Body of Christ:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

As we see at 1 Corinthians 12:13 Jews were indeed baptized into the Body of Christ and there is no evidence that only some of the believing Jews were so baptized. Why do you think that only some of them were baptized into the Body but not all of them?

Hi Jerry and at least you did see that Apollos was saved under the Kingdom Program and Aquila and Priscilla tuned Apollos to the MYSTERY IS easy as verse 25 says !!

As we see in Acts 2:41 , Jews were still being saved BY THE LORD in verse 47 !!

1 Cor 3:13-15 that the Jews have a VAIL that covers there HEARTS so that they can NOT BELIEVE !!

So how are Jews saved today , read verse 16 !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So how are Jews saved today , read verse 16 !!

Down through history and even today all people are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

 

[glorydaz]

The Bible tells us what sins are. Are you actually saying that if a Christian commits fornication then he hasn't sinned?

Who will charge him? Who will condemn him. Romans 8:33
The law? Which we have been delivered from? Romans 7:6

His words there were with the coming earthly kingdom in view.

You can't mean that the physical act is required in order for something to be a sin?

When someone uses a porno magazine to satisfy his lusts, then that doesn't count?

When a Christian sins he becomes defiled. If it is impossible why would Paul tell Christians the following:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

According to you a Christian cannot cleanse himself of anything because his sins do not defile him.

Not according to me....according to Paul. How do you propose you can cleanse yourself?

You quote that verse every time, but ignore what comes before. Paul was addressing the idolatry and sexual perversions many had engaged in. "Come out from among them".....

2 Cor. 6:17-18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

We cleanse ourselves by coming out from among them....being saved by grace through faith....being RECEIVED by the Father as sons and daughters.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I should have realized earlier that it is impossible to reason with someone who insists that Peter did not sin even though Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews" (Gal.2:11-14).​

According to your strange ideas even though Peter was to be blamed and he walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that he was walking in the light and he didn't sin.

I just cannot trick my mind into believing that and I can see that further discussion on this subject will be futile.

 

[glorydaz]

I should have realized earlier that it is impossible to reason with someone who insists that Peter did not sin even though Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews" (Gal.2:11-14).​

According to your strange ideas even though Peter was to be blamed and he walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel you say that he was walking in the light and he didn't sin.

I just cannot trick my mind into believing that and I can see that further discussion on this subject will be futile.

Ah, don't go all holier-than-thou on me, Jerry.

If you read sin into those words of Paul's, I'm not surprised you seem to believe we are still under the bondage of the law. Paul doesn't even come close to saying Peter was sinning. Paul held himself to a very high standard, but even he did things contrary to the gospel of Grace. He circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews", and that is exactly what Peter was doing.

Acts 16:1-3
Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.​

Perhaps you could enlighten me on what the difference is between this episode above and what Peter did.

Gal. 2:12-14 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah, don't go all holier-than-thou on me, Jerry.

It's not a matter of being holier but instead I am not able to trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews" (Gal.2:11-14).​

According to your ideas even though Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!

We also know that John's first epistle was written to believers:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

But you say that what he said at 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers!

Can you quote even one recognized theologian who says that? I don't know if there is one but I am just curious.

 

[DAN P]

Down through history and even today all people are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Hi Jerry and if what you says true , that all were saved by FAITH and GRACE , How were people saved from Adam UNTIL Moses ?? Rom 5:14 ??

Waiting for your reply ??

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

If you read sin into those words of Paul's, I'm not surprised you seem to believe we are still under the bondage of the law. Paul doesn't even come close to saying Peter was sinning. Paul held himself to a very high standard, but even he did things contrary to the gospel of Grace. He circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews", and that is exactly what Peter was doing.

Acts 16:1-3
Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.​

Perhaps you could enlighten me on what the difference is between this episode above and what Peter did.

It's not a matter of being holier but instead I am not able to trick my mind into believing that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews" (Gal.2:11-14).​

According to your ideas even though Peter was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel he was walking in the light!

So rather than respond to what I wrote, you expect me to move on?

I need to hear why you think Peter did anything different than Paul did, himself.

 

[DAN P]

Down through history and even today all people are saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Hi mJerry , so stop AVOIDING Rom 5:14 and either you know OR you don't !!

Explain it , as I have written about many times !!

dan p