Theology Club: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you honestly think we can clean ourselves of anything?

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "let us cleanse" is in the "active" voice:

"The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action" (Blue Letter Bible).​

So you have concluded that those in Christ sin?

I know that I have sinned since I was saved. Does that mean that I am not in Christ?

 

[glorydaz]

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "let us cleanse" is in the "active" voice:

"The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action" (Blue Letter Bible).​

Which fits with "come out from among them and be ye separate".

I know that I have sinned since I was saved. Does that mean that I am not in Christ?

No, it just means you haven't yet reckoned yourself to be dead to sin, even though you are alive unto God through Jesus Christ. Simply put, you count sin where the Lord doesn't.

Remember, he that committeth sin is of the devil.....and such were we at one time.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

And remember this, most of all.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Which fits with "come out from among them and be ye separate".

Why would Paul tell them that since they had already come out from among them?

No, it just means you haven't yet reckoned yourself to be dead to sin, even though you are alive unto God through Jesus Christ.

So a person can be in Christ and at the same time sin.

Is that walking in the light or walking in darkness?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

According to you the following words of John are directed toward unbelievers:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

I don't know about you but I tell unbelievers that a person's sins are forgiven when they believe in the Lord Jesus:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

I tell them that upon believing the gospel they have their sins forgiven and nothing more is required in regard to the salvation of the soul.

Do you just tell them that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven?

 

[glorydaz]

Why would Paul tell them that since they had already come out from among them?

No, he's telling them when they do come out, that is the result. The old man is put off like a dirty coat....leave it behind. How do we do that? Through the Spirit, not through our own efforts. You know that God must perform that work in us.

Romans 8:12-13 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. ​

So a person can be in Christ and at the same time sin.

No, there is no sin in Him.

Is that walking in the light or walking in darkness?

Those in Christ are in the light of LIFE, so our walk is always in the light.

Man is either in Light or in Darkness.

In the flesh or in the Spirit.

Dead in sin or alive in Him.

Sinner or Saint.

 

[glorydaz]

According to you the following words of John are directed toward unbelievers:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

I don't know about you but I tell unbelievers that a person's sins are forgiven when they believe in the Lord Jesus:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

I tell them that upon believing the gospel they have their sins forgiven and nothing more is required in regard to the salvation of the soul.

Indeed, and what if they say they have no sins, so they need no forgiveness?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

Wouldn't you then tell them "All men sin and come short of the glory of God."?

A person must acknowledge he is a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Do you just tell them that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be forgiven?

No, because the word "confess" has a different meaning to those I speak to. I tell them to believe and their sins will be forgiven. And here's why....

Look how the same word is used in the following verses. 1 John 4:15, 1 John 4:2-3, 2 John 1:7 and Titus 1:16

And it's this one that reminds me of those who say they have no sin that John is talking about. If we say...man can profess he has no sin, but he must confess (profess or acknowledge) he does have sin in order to truly believe and be forgiven.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I tell them to believe and their sins will be forgiven.

Of course unsaved individuals have to be told to believe the gospel if they want to have their sins forgiven. And John said nothing about that to these people:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Do you think that John just forgot to tell them that they must believe the gospel in order to have their sins forgiven? Why do you think he didn't mention that because that very thing is absulutely essential to anyone having their sins forgiven?

The thing you are missing is the fact that John's words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to Christians who already have their sins forgiven. John told them:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

I have searched many commentaries on the first epistle of John and I have not seen even one which says that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers. Are you aware of any and would you share it with me?

Thanks!

 

[glorydaz]

Of course unsaved individuals have to be told to believe the gospel if they want to have their sins forgiven. And John said nothing about that to these people:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Do you think that John just forgot to tell them that they must believe the gospel in order to have their sins forgiven? Why do you think he didn't mention that because that very thing is absulutely essential to anyone having their sins forgiven?

The thing you are missing is the fact that John's words at 1 John 1:9 are addressed to Christians who already have their sins forgiven. John told them:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

I have searched many commentaries on the first epistle of John and I have not seen even one which says that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers. Are you aware of any and would you share it with me?

Thanks!

I don't think John is preaching Paul's Gospel at all. When I read his introduction, I believe he is speaking to Jews who have heard the Gospel of the Kingdom, but the Kingdom didn't come as they planned. As an eye witness, John is bearing witness that Jesus Christ is one with the Father just as he said in his Gospel....that very LIGHT that is God.

1 John 1:1-4
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.​

John recognizes there are those in the church who do NOT believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. I see no mention of the indwelling Spirit, here, either. "That your joy may be full..." means something is still missing. Finally we see this....keeping commandments is still there.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't think John is preaching Paul's Gospel at all.

The point I made is the fact that John's words were addressed to those who have already had their sins forgiven:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

So his following words addressed to those who are already saved:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Those words are not addressed to unbelievers, as you imagine. Besides that, those who received the epistle were members of the Body of Christ because they were waiting for the rapture as were all the members of the Body:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

 

[glorydaz]

The point I made is the fact that John's words were addressed to those who have already had their sins forgiven:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

So his following words addressed to those who are already saved:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Those words are not addressed to unbelievers, as you imagine. Besides that, those who received the epistle were members of the Body of Christ because they were waiting for the rapture as were all the members of the Body:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

He writes to lots of people....even those who SAY they have fellowship with Him, but LIE and walk in darkness.

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:​

IF WE SAY.....but do not the truth. Liars. John tells you who liars are right here.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.​

Was Jesus lying when He said this...What is that LIGHT OF LIFE?

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He writes to lots of people....

According to you John uses the pronoun "we" to refer to the saved at verse one. Then at verse six the same pronoun refers to the unsaved. Then in the next chapter the "we" refers again to the saved.

As I said previously, I have read many commentaries on these verses and I have not found anyone who says that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers.

Are you aware of any? If you are would you mind sharing it with me?

 

[glorydaz]

According to you John uses the pronoun "we" to refer to the saved at verse one. Then at verse six the same pronoun refers to the unsaved. Then in the next chapter the "we" refers again to the saved.

No, and by repeating that, you clearly aren't listening to what I've said. And, let's be honest here, Jerry, I have explained this to you countless times, and not just in this thread.

So, let's see if I can be clearer. John is declaring what he and others who had been with Jesus have learned. God is light, and IN HIM is no darkness at all.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.​

Since John cannot visibly see who is saved and who is not, he uses the royal we. Each person can then know where they fit....in the darkness or in the light. No one is both. They are either one or the other. Here is the test he gives them.

These CLAIM what they do not possess. "If we say...." Don't you find it odd that John uses the term "If we say..." on all the bad verses?

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

These all have come into the LIGHT, and walk in the light.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

As I said previously, I have read many commentaries on these verses and I have not found anyone who says that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to unbelievers.

Are you aware of any? If you are would you mind sharing it with me?

As you can see from the above, 1 John 1:9 is referring to those who have come into the light and have acknowledged they are sinners. Which all of us need to do. This has nothing to do with "confessing sins", but professing our need for a Saviour. As I said, those who claim they have no sin are rejecting the Light and their need for salvation.

So, perhaps you should reread some of those commentators to see if they understand that John's use of the word "we" doesn't mean he can see into the hearts of men to know whether they are unbelievers or not.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since John cannot visibly see who is saved and who is not, he uses the royal we.

When he uses the word "we" in the following verse he is certainly addressing saved individuals:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn.2:1).​

Later he states in no uncertain terms that his words are written to saved individuals:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

But you say that the following words were addressed to the unsaved and according to you John is telling them how they can be saved:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Are you not even aware that telling an unsaved person to confess his sins will not result in sins being forgiven? The gospel must be preached to them and those who believe it will receive the forgiveness of sins:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Believe, not confess sins!

Do you honestly think that Peter was walking according to the light here?:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).​

 

[glorydaz]

Since John cannot visibly see who is saved and who is not, he uses the royal we. Each person can then know where they fit....in the darkness or in the light. No one is both. They are either one or the other.

When he uses the word "we" in the following verse he is certainly addressing saved individuals:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn.2:1).​

Then why does John say this?

1 John 3:5-6 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.​

But you say that the following words were addressed to the unsaved and according to you John is telling them how they can be saved:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Are you not even aware that telling an unsaved person to confess his sins will not result in sins being forgiven? The gospel must be preached to them and those who believe it will receive the forgiveness of sins:

Believe, not confess sins!

When one professes he is a sinner, he acknowledges God. Remember, John is talking about LIGHT and Darkness. Jesus is the True LIGHT, and those who come into the LIGHT are believers.

John makes a very clear distinction between sin/darkness and righteousness/Light. They can't be mixed and mingled or left and reentered. Unbelievers are in darkness, and believers are in the Light.

]Do you honestly think that Peter was walking according to the light here?:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).​

Being a hypocrite does not mean we step back into darkness. If Peter was in the LIGHT/Christ, then he will always be in the Light.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When one professes he is a sinner, he acknowledges God.

So are you saying that people are saved and have their sins forgiven apart from believing the gospel?

I knew and recognized the fact that I was a sinner before I heard the gospel but I wasn't saved at that time.

And you continue to insist that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).​

Even though Paul said that Peter "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" you say that he was walking in the light!

According to your ideas a person can be walking in the light at the same time he walks not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel!

 

[glorydaz]

So are you saying that people are saved and have their sins forgiven apart from believing the gospel?

I don't see the Gospel of Salvation preached anywhere in John.

I knew and recognized the fact that I was a sinner before I heard the gospel but I wasn't saved at that time.

Then you were in still in darkness, weren't you?

And you continue to insist that Peter was walking in the light when Paul said the following about him:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Gal.2:11-14).​

Even though Paul said that Peter "walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" you say that he was walking in the light!

According to your ideas a person can be walking in the light at the same time he walks not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel!

No, according the Paul's Gospel, the saved are children of the Light, and do not walk in darkness....we are not children of the night just because there is some fault in us.

Paul is speaking specifically of what Peter was causing other men to think he was not in agreement with the gospel he was supposedly preaching at that time. Justification by faith. So Paul was saying he was being hypocritical.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, according the Paul's Gospel, the saved are children of the Light, and do not walk in darkness....we are not children of the night just because there is some fault in us.

According to Paul it is certainly possible for a Christian to sin:

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Cor.7:1-2).​

If doing that sin was impossible for a Christian then Paul wouldn't speak of avoiding it. You can't avoid something that can't happen. And here is what Paul about the behavior of the Christians at the church of Corinth:

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" ​

There was envying and strife and division among the Christians so common sense dictates that they were not walking in the light and that they were indeed sinning.

 

[DAN P]

There are MANY Mid-Acts dispensationalists who do not confess their sins (1 Jn.1:9) and therefore they remain defiled. What does that say about their service for the LORD?:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).​

When a Christian judges himself in regard to his sins then he is in fact confessing his sin. And are we not to judge ourselves?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31-32).​

If Paul is not speaking about a Christian judging himself in regard to his sins then what are to to judge ourselves about?

Hi Jerry and 1 Cor 11:31 is NOT speaking about SALVATION !!

It speaking of the Lord;s supper and were not EXAMINING themselfs concerning that eating !!

There are to verbs here WE WOULD NJUDE / DIAKRINO and the verb BE JUDGED / KRINO which is in the Greek IMPERFECT TENSE and in the PASSIVE VOICE and in the Indicative mood !!

The IMPERFECT TENSE means a continuous action and then that continuous action then STOPPED if they corrected their actions !!

1 John 1:9 is NOT APPLICABLE FOR TODAY !!

Get you reading right side up !!

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

According to Paul it is certainly possible for a Christian to sin:

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Cor.7:1-2).​

Explaining why a man needs a wife, doesn't mean an unmarried believer will have sex outside of marriage. And, it doesn't mean sin would be accounted to him, in any case. It doesn't mean charges would be brought against him as a law breaker. It doesn't mean the law has the power to condemn those who have been washed, sanctified, and justified.

If doing that sin was impossible for a Christian then Paul wouldn't speak of avoiding it. You can't avoid something that can't happen. And here is what Paul about the behavior of the Christians at the church of Corinth:

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" ​

There was envying and strife and division among the Christians so common sense dictates that they were not walking in the light and that they were indeed sinning.

Once again, you assume everyone in the church is a believer. That simply defies reason. There are some there who are yet carnal...sold under sin. Not yet able to even bear the milk of the word. It's also why Paul says to "examine" yourselves whether you be in the faith.

Aside from that, "envyings and strife" may be faults that believers are in the process of putting off....of being chastened for. Paul doesn't say believers are sinning....being delivered from the law really does mean something. We no more move back into the darkness when we commit some fault than we move in and out of Christ.

Walking by faith does not mean we never deserve to be chastened by the Lord. Is that what you're saying, Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 John 1:9 is NOT APPLICABLE FOR TODAY !!

Sure it is!

All of the first century Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ just like all of the Gentile believers. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":

"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).​

But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).​

Apollos was saved by believing the gospel of the Kingdom but nonetheless Paul said that both were "one." You say that they were "two."

Besides John told the believers that they have been given eternal life, and that life "is in the Son":

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

These Jewish Christians are told that the eternal life which has been given to them is 'in" the Son. This can only be in regard to how the sinner is made "alive together with Christ":

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).​

Here we read that those who are made alive with Him and are seated with Him in the heavenly places. And that is exactly what the following passages from the Hebrew epistles are speaking of:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb.10:19-20).​

It is certain that the words "the holiest" are not referring to the earthly throne under the law because only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year. So the throne spoken of can only be the heavenly throne and these Hebrew Christians are told to come boldly to that throne. They have a heavenly calling just like all of the members of the Body of Christ:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​