Theology Club: The Hebrew Epistles and Where Do They Fit?

[heir]

No, the truth he was testifying was to those in the church at Corinth AND to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor.1:2).

Of course ALL of the Jewish believers living at the time wrote this epistle called on the name of the Lord Jesus. So when Paul says that we are ALL baptized into one body then that must include ALL of the Jewish believers:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Fool. The all (member of the Body) would be the all to whom God foreknew as Paul was gathering a remnant out of Israel into the body...Romans 11:1-6 KJV/specifically Jews and Greeks. It has nothing to do with those who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Your problem is you want all believers of all time to be in the one body of Christ, but they aren't. We have a different gospel, duty/purpose and eternal destination. The timing of the atonement isn't even the same. Stop blending the word of God.

Did you not read what I wrote on post #13?

What a mess! I'll address it soon.

So the following has nothing to do with anyone being judged?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor.11:29-30).​

Judas Iscariot was the only one who ate and drank unworthily. Next...

 

[heir]

Let us look at this verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "forgive" is "to send away" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).

Those of 1 John 1:9 KJV will have forgiveness of sins at the second coming when a fountain is opened unto them...(Zechriah 13:1 KJV).

Any sin which a Christian commits defiles him and makes him unholy.

What a truckload of dung not to mention calling the Lord's Body unholy. If ever there was a reason to call someone an idiot it's now.

And in order to have that sin sent away and be cleansed from the defilement which it caused a Christ confesses that sin or acknowledges it as a sin.

Or perhaps you do not think that your sins do not defile you even with the following words of the Lord Jesus in view:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man" (Mt.15:18-20).​

Tsk. Tsk. Someone who claims Hebrew epistles written to him (you) ought to know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Hebrews 9:22 KJV). Your so called Christian acknowledging sin made up religiosity is BOGUS!

Back to Body truth only found in Romans through Philemon: Members of the Body of Christ have received the atonement and there's nothing we can do to lose the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle John tells us how to go from a state of being defiled and unholy into a state of being cleansed and therefore holy. Do you not think that the sins of Christian defiles them?

False premise and conclusion.

Have you ever trusted the Lord believing that all of your sins were forgiven/that Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day as the ONLY means by which you are saved? It sure doesn't look like you have. Trusting the Lord's faith and finished work is the only hope for you concerning sin/sins. I encourage you to trust Him now, follow Paul (1 Corinthian 4:15-16 KJV) and 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Even John is not saying we have to keep confessing sins once we are saved. He is talking about when one comes into the LIGHT. They have to recognize they are sinners. The LIGHT of the glorious Gospel, itself, opens our eyes to our sins and our need for a Saviour.

So when did the pronoun "we" change from being being in regard to saved people to being in regard to unsaved people?

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1-10).​

John even says the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN. All means ALL....not just those we confess. Therefore, you're reading more into that text than is actually there.

Please notice it does not say "has" cleansed us. Instead, the word "cleanseth" is in the "present" tense. It is ongoing and when a Christian sins he defiles himself and he is in need cleansing or else he stays in a state of being unholy. And all a Christian has to do to in order to be holy once again is to confess or acknowledge his sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Fool...Your problem is you want all believers of all time to be in the one body of Christ, but they aren't.

I never said that and I don't believe that so please refrain from mis-representing what I believe.

We have a different gospel, duty/purpose and eternal destination. The timing of the atonement isn't even the same. Stop blending the word of God.

The timing of the atonement isn't the same? So even though Peter says the following to those he addressed their atonement remains in the future:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Judas Iscariot was the only one who ate and drank unworthily. Next...

Then why does Paul make it plain that more than one who ate and drank unworthily?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor.11:29-30).​

Those of 1 John 1:9 KJV will have forgiveness of sins at the second coming when a fountain is opened unto them...(Zechriah 13:1 KJV).

Then why does John tell them this?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

What a truckload of dung not to mention calling the Lord's Body unholy. If ever there was a reason to call someone an idiot it's now.

So even though the Lord Jesus says that a person's sins defile him you know better because you think that Christians cannot become unholy. But why would Paul tell the Christian this if he couldn't be defiled?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

How can a Christian possibly clean himself from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit unless he can in fact become filthy and defiled?

 

[heir]

I never said that and I don't believe that so please refrain from mis-representing what I believe.

Not all believers of all time, just the little flock that are a different people, have a different gospel, doctrine, purpose and destination?

The timing of the atonement isn't the same? So even though Peter says the following to those he addressed their atonement remains in the future:

They look forward to it Acts 3:19-21 KJV while we have it now Romans 5:11 KJV, bible blender.

So even though the Lord Jesus says that a person's sins defile him you know better because you think that Christians cannot become unholy.

Why is it that Jerry runs back to a time before the Lord was delivered up, let alone for anyone's sins (which was ONLY revealed to and through Paul)? Why is Jerry obsessed with sin and sins when 2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV took place in the world's stead 2000 years ago? Why hasn't Jerry trusted that Christ died for all of his sins as the only means by which he can be saved? Will Jerry EVER (get saved and) reckon himself to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord?

How can a Christian possibly clean himself from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit unless he can in fact become filthy and defiled?

You never go to context of a statement. You just cherry pick it out to suit your obsession with sin and I see your misunderstanding and misappropriation of scripture a result of that...

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They look forward to it Acts 3:19-21 KJV while we have it now Romans 5:11 KJV, bible blender.

So are you still maintaing that those who received John's epistles had not yet had their sins forgiven even though he told them the following?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

You must because you said the following earlier:

Those of 1 John 1:9 KJV will have forgiveness of sins at the second coming when a fountain is opened unto them...(Zechriah 13:1 KJV).

Your problem is the fact that you just refuse to believe the things which are written in the Scriptures. That is because you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

According to you those who received John's epistles will not have their sins forgiven until sometime in the future despite the fact that John tells them that they have already had their sins forgiven.

Do you actually think that John was in error and that you actually know more than he does?

 

[heir]

So are you still maintaing that those who received John's epistles had not yet had their sins forgiven even though he told them the following?:

"So are you still maintaining that" they can acknowledge their sins even though without shedding of blood is no remission (Hebrews 9:22 KJV)?

I know that they look forward to the times of refreshing that shall come from the presence of the Lord while we in the Body look back to the cross having now received the atonement. Well, you don't look back to anything but your sin and sins.

I am not your puppet. I do not and will not follow your script. You have sin and sins to deal with that you refuse to trust the Lord who forgave them by the cross. I can't help you. Only the Lord can as He dealt with your sin and sins 2000 years ago. You should think on your salvation and go from there.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know that they look forward to the times of refreshing that shall come from the presence of the Lord while we in the Body look back to the cross having now received the atonement. Well, you don't look back to anything but your sin and sins.

So you haven't figured out yet that those who received John's epistle already had their sins forgiven? this what you said:

Those of 1 John 1:9 KJV will have forgiveness of sins at the second coming when a fountain is opened unto them...(Zechriah 13:1 KJV).

If those to whom John wrote will not have their sins forgiven until the future then tell me what John tells them here:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

You are so deep in error that you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you right between the eyes.

You say that they will not have their sins forgiven until sometime in the future. John says that their sins are already forgiven.

 

[heir]

So you haven't figured out yet that those who received John's epistle already had their sins forgiven? this what you said:

"So you haven't figured out yet" that their sins will be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord in accordance with that which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) and Paul confirms in Romans 11:25-27 KJV. You ignore the facts.

What about your sins? Did Christ die for/forgive them all and you have now received the atonement or are you in too "deep" with your obsession and unbelief of what took place by His cross in your place?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"So you haven't figured out yet" that their sins will be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord in accordance with that which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21 KJV) and Paul confirms in Romans 11:25-27 KJV. You ignore the facts.

What Peter told them at Acts 3:19 was corporate in nature and so Peter was telling the nation of Israel that is she repented then their sins will be blotted out. But despite this you continue to throw your reason to the wind and insist that the sins of those who received John's epistles would not have their sins forgiven until the future despite what John tells them here:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

He tells them that their sins are forgiven. But you cannot even grasp that simple truth.

What about your sins?

If I was you I would be worried about your own sins because I see no evidence that you have been born again because you just either cannot understand or believe what John said at 1 John 2:12. As far as I can see you remain the kind of person which Paul speaks of here:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

Anyone who could look at the following verse and still insist that their sins were not forgiven then but instead that those sins will not be forgiven until sometime in the future cannot understand spiritual things:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

John tells them that their sins are forgiven but you think that you know more than John does because you continue to insist that their sins will not be forgiven until the future.

 

[heir]

Where are all the passages to us commanding us to confess our sins? I can't find any.

 

[heir]

Where's Jerry's testimony that he has trusted the Lord believing the gospel of our salvation as the only means of salvation and not his turning from sin or confessing sins (his made up hijacked version of)? Where is Jerry's focus?

 

[heir]

Hebrew epistles are written to Hebrews and not to Gentiles like us in the dispensation of the grace of God.

 

[glorydaz]

So when did the pronoun "we" change from being being in regard to saved people to being in regard to unsaved people?

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1-10).​

It's the same royal "we" every preacher uses. If we say we're saved....BUT WALK IN DARKNESS. Believers do not walk in darkness. John 8:12 Darkness is not compatible with the LIGHT OF LIFE, which John talks about quite often in his Gospel.

If we say......compared to If we walk in the LIGHT.
If we say.....
If we say.....

Exactly like this...

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.​

Please notice it does not say "has" cleansed us. Instead, the word "cleanseth" is in the "present" tense. It is ongoing and when a Christian sins he defiles himself and he is in need cleansing or else he stays in a state of being unholy. And all a Christian has to do to in order to be holy once again is to confess or acknowledge his sin.

Please note it says cleanseth from ALL SIN...not just the sins you confess.

Unholy? I don't think you believe that, Jerry. You know the word of God. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit...washed, sanctified, and justified.

Col. 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where are all the passages to us commanding us to confess our sins? I can't find any.

You can't find them because you prove over and over that you don't believe what is written in the Bible.

We have a different gospel, duty/purpose and eternal destination. The timing of the atonement isn't even the same. Stop blending the word of God.

The timing of the atonement isn't the same? So even though Peter says the following to those he addressed their atonement remains in the future:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Judas Iscariot was the only one who ate and drank unworthily. Next...

Then why does Paul make it plain that more than one who ate and drank unworthily?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Cor.11:29-30).​

Those of 1 John 1:9 KJV will have forgiveness of sins at the second coming when a fountain is opened unto them...(Zechriah 13:1 KJV).

Then why does John tell them this?:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

What a truckload of dung not to mention calling the Lord's Body unholy. If ever there was a reason to call someone an idiot it's now.

So even though the Lord Jesus says that a person's sins defile him you know better because you think that Christians cannot become unholy. But why would Paul tell the Christian this if he couldn't be defiled?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

How can a Christian possibly clean himself from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit unless he can in fact become filthy and defiled?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's the same royal "we" every preacher uses. If we say we're saved....BUT WALK IN DARKNESS. Believers do not walk in darkness. John 8:12 Darkness is not compatible with the LIGHT OF LIFE, which John talks about quite often in his Gospel.

According to your ideas someone can be filthy in the flesh and spirit in their walk but at the same time they are walking in the light!

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

According to your ideas John used the pronoun "we" to refer to saved individuals in the beginning of the chapter but later in the same chapter he used the same pronoun to refer to the unsaved.

That idea is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as your idea that a Christian is walking in the light at the same time he is living a life which Paul describes as being filthy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hebrew epistles are written to Hebrews and not to Gentiles like us in the dispensation of the grace of God.

Those who received the Hebrew epistles were waiting to be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air with all of the other members of the Body of Christ. Here is what Paul says about the timing of the rapture:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).​

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In the Hebrew epistles we see a passage which describes the timing of the Lord Jesus' appearance at the rapture:

"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).​

The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).​

Since only those in the Body will be caught up and since there can only be one imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus then we know that those who received the Hebrew epistle were also in the Body of Christ. In the following verse John speaks of the appearance of the Lord Jesus:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

Of course you will not believe what James said because you put more faith in what some people say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[glorydaz]

According to your ideas someone can be filthy in the flesh and spirit in their walk but at the same time they are walking in the light!

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

No, that's your reading of what Paul writes...not mine. Paul is talking about coming out from among them...being separate. We know it's the Spirit that cleans us internally. We know that it is the Lord that performs His work in us. That "filthiness" you see there is not IN us at all. It's referring to our habits of life that we had before we were received as "sons and daughters". You can tell that if you read the lead up here.

2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

According to your ideas John used the pronoun "we" to refer to saved individuals in the beginning of the chapter but later in the same chapter he used the same pronoun to refer to the unsaved.

That idea is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as your idea that a Christian is walking in the light at the same time he is living a life which Paul describes as being filthy.

No, that's your reading of the text. John is using the word "we" to refer to all those present. Can John see into the hearts of those present? You seem to think he can, but he, himself, mentions later that we only know whether they are of us if they do not depart.

Man does not move in and out of the darkness, any more than a man can be saved, lose his salvation, and then gain it again. The LIGHT OF LIFE is Jesus Christ. We do no move in and out of the LIGHT.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, that's your reading of what Paul writes...not mine. Paul is talking about coming out from among them...being separate. We know it's the Spirit that cleans us internally. We know that it is the Lord that performs His work in us.

We are to clean ourselves:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

These words are addressed to believers (having the promises) and since Paul tells Christians to clean themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit then that can only mean that when a Christian sins he defiles himself and becomes filthy.

 

[glorydaz]

We are to clean ourselves:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

These words are addressed to believers (having the promises) and since Paul tells Christians to clean themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit then that can only mean that when a Christian sins he defiles himself and becomes filthy.

So you have concluded that those in Christ sin? Having been delivered from the law, means nothing? Having been crucified with Christ means nothing? Sin is still accounted to us?

We "clean outselves" by coming out from among them. (Having been set apart through sanctification of the Spirit. Do you honestly think we can clean ourselves of anything?

2 Cor. 6:17-18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;​

Who is it that conforms us into the image of the Son? Us?

Who is it that performs His work in us? Us?