The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

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JudgeRightly

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When 90 degrees is taken from any degree of angle other than true vertical, aka plumb, aka no slope, the 90 degree angle will not be true horizontal, aka no slope.
Therefore it will not be level when you hold a level up to it.
Now let's take a look at what one degree difference would be 69.4 miles away from true plumb aka vertical.

Yes, that's why I said you don't measure plumb based on something farther away. You measure it based on local plumb.

However, when you're building something where there's a significant enough angle between the radials at either end of what you're building, for example, with the Golden Gate Bridge, you have to account for that difference.


Q. Looking for some help figuring out how to calculate distance equivalent to degrees.

e.g.: If I have a 2 degree tolerance for perpendicularity at 20" from the joint how much is 2 degrees in inches?

how would I figure out the given tolerance in inches over a given distance.

ex: 2 degrees at 20", 4 degrees at 20 inches etc.

Thank you everyone for your help

A. By dick
(**)
Date 05-08-2015 03:32
miracle point (angle-pitch) 2 degrees =.035 per inch .035x20= .7inch, 4 degrees =.07 per inch .07x20=1.4 inch
1 degree angle = .0175 pitch per inch or .210 inch per foot

No idea what you're trying to prove here, but it isn't helping your position.

Now if I build a cabinet 2 feet high by 8 feet long at true plumb and horizontal and haul it 69.4 miles away to where your house's ceilings and walls are one degree out it will be crooked.

No, it won't be, because it will be pulled level (assuming you built it correctly) by the local radial, the plumb line.

The only way it will be crooked is if you intentionally hang it crooked.

2 x .210 = 0.42 That's almost a 1/2 inch out from the corner.
8 x .210 = 1.68 That's almost 1 3/4 inches out from the ceiling.

Try getting paid after hanging a cabinet like that.

Try getting a job period when you can't understand that you don't build small things based on level measurements 70 miles away. No one will hire you because they'll think you're an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, because you ARE an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

If you build a cabinet, and it hangs level, and you travel 70 miles away to hang it up, both you and the cabinet have moved to a different radial, and are no longer at the radial you were at when you initially built the cabinet. Both you and the cabinet have rotated the same amount as the surface of the earth, and are still vertical, because verticality is based on location, and is not the same in all locations. The only way in which it is the same is that they all point "down" to the same center of mass.

If you have a sphere of some sort at your home, say, a basket ball or soccer ball, get it out, take a pen or pencil, and hold the writing utensil so that it is upright, "vertical" on top of the ball. Now move the pen or pencil around the outside of the ball to a different location, it doesn't matter where, keeping the pen or pencil aligned to the center of the ball.

At both the starting point of the pen or pencil, and at the end point, the pencil was "vertical" relative to the ball. (NO, it was not vertical relative to YOU, OBVIOUSLY, so don't be dumb and make some idiotic comment about it not actually being vertical, because I'm trying to demonstrate something at a scale that you can understand!)

It was vertical at both locations because verticality is defined by 90 degrees from horizontal, which is the plane tangential to the surface of the ball, tangential meaning that it is the ONLY plane that intersects the sphere at one and only one point, with all other concentric points around it being equally distant from the plane. There are an infinite number of "horizontal" planes on any given sphere, just as there are an infinite number of tangents on any given circle. All of them are, by definition, perpendicular to the radial that intersects that same point that it intersects.

When you move from one point to a different point, the new radial is now the vertical one, and the first one is no longer vertical to you. I repeat, THE FIRST radial is no longer vertical TO YOU. It is still absolutely (iow, "in the absolute sense") vertical in its own location, but it is not vertical relative to other radials.

This is how it works, 1m1s. If you cannot comprehend this, then I pity you.

If you REFUSE to comprehend, however, then you are a fool, and I have no pity for you.
 

JudgeRightly

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At 69.4 miles you would be off one degree.
Cabinets are not always built on site.
You just made my point.

You're still not getting it.

The radial where the cabinet is built is vertical.

The radial where the cabinet is hung is vertical.

The infinite number of radials in between are vertical.

The cabinet will not be crooked unless you intentionally build or install it crooked.

As you move from one point to another on the surface of the sphere, "vertical" changes, and thus, the cabinet changes with it.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
There are an infinite number of "horizontal" planes on any given sphere,
We're talking about your sphere with a top and bottom.
Any 90 degree angle taken from a radial will be sloped not horizontal.
Every point on that line will be above or below the others.
You agreed earlier that horizontal can't be sloped.
 

Gary K

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You're not even in the ball park of this conversation.
You're tight. I was way off. The distance between radians on earth is 69.4 miles not 1 mile as I used in my calculation the first time. Tjus I was way over in my answer. The corret formula is 6904 x 1760 for the number of yards in one degree. That is 122,221.44 yards between radians. Divide that by 100 and we get 1,221.44 100 yard long segments. Divide 1 by 1221.44 and we get a much smaller number. We get 8.1870578988734608331150117893634e-4. Move that decimal point 4 places to the left and that's how much of a degree there is in 100 yards. 0.00081875 degrees. That's just a smidge over 8/10,000 of one degree.
 

JudgeRightly

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We're talking about your sphere with a top and bottom.

So, you've got nothing other than a bait and switch?

There is no universal, absolute "up," so "up" in the solar system is defined as pointing towards the North Star, and is completely arbitrary. However, that's not the same "up" that we use for things pertaining to the surface of the earth, which is what we're talking about, not the "up" of the solar system. Instead, "up and down," and thus, "top and bottom" are "towards 'out'" and "towards 'in'',"respectively.

Any 90 degree angle taken from a radial will be sloped not horizontal.

The radials are all vertical, stupid.

Therefore, by definition, any horizontal plane perpendicular to that radial is NOT sloped.

Every point on that line will be above or below the others.

On what line? The radial that's vertical? Duh. What's your point?

You agreed earlier that horizontal can't be sloped.

Horizontal is ALWAYS defined by the location in which it is measured, and is not sloped by definition.

The horizontal plane in New York City is not the same horizontal plane as in Tokyo, Japan.

However, there is almost no difference between horizontal in Bronx, NY, and Fort Lee, NJ, but enough that even construction of a bridge between the two (George Washington Bridge) must take into account that difference.

1M1S, within a few hundred feet, a perfectly flat surface will lay flush on flat ground, and you won't be able to see any elevation drop off. As was pointed out earlier, we're talking TINY fractions of an inch difference, effectively zero.

But over long distances, those tiny fractions of distance add up, so that if you had a 138.8-mile (2 x 69.4 miles) long rigid straight edge, laying on the ground, the two ends would be slightly off the ground, but at the center, it would be touching the ground, a tangent to the surface.

This rigid straight-edge would be horizontal at the exact dead center, and everywhere else, along it, it would be sloped, the "slope" increasing the further you get from the center, where at each end of this straight-edge, the slope is up to one degree off of horizontal, and some small distance off the ground (too busy right now to do the math on how high off the ground it would be, but you get the idea).
 

JudgeRightly

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No.
The 90 degree line off the radial.
It will be sloped, thus not horizontal.

The radial is vertical, by definition, Thus, anything that is perpendicular to it is, by definition, horizontal relative to that radial.

So no, it will not be sloped, relative to that radial. It will be perfectly level.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?
 

CabinetMaker

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Folks these days don't use plumb bobs to build a cabinet.
You use a tool called a level when building a cabinet.
Which as I've pointed out previously in this thread is indiscriminate as to where you use it.
If level was defined as you say as 90 degrees from a slanted/sloped radial a level would not work in both places.
Oh yeah, I followed your Bridge tower rabbit hole.
There were no citations from engineers or academia claiming the curve of the earth being figured in the plans.
Only thing resembling a citation was an excerpt from a poet.
I'll address your baseless assertions about gas laws later.
Wife just got home from work.
A level is level regardless of where it is used. Level is always perpendicular to plumb so when I use a level in my shop and you use a level 1000 miles away, the cabinet will be level. However, the level cabinet in my shop and the cabinet in your home will not be parallel. Why? Because level is always perpendicular to local plumb and our local plumb lines are not parallel, they are radial.
 

Right Divider

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A level is level regardless of where it is used. Level is always perpendicular to plumb so when I use a level in my shop and you use a level 1000 miles away, the cabinet will be level. However, the level cabinet in my shop and the cabinet in your home will not be parallel. Why? Because level is always perpendicular to local plumb and our local plumb lines are not parallel, they are radial.
Don't forget that you're replying to a guy that thinks that gravity does not exist.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Folks these days don't use plumb bobs to build a cabinet.
You use a tool called a level when building a cabinet.
Which as I've pointed out previously in this thread is indiscriminate as to where you use it.
If level was defined as you say as 90 degrees from a slanted/sloped radial a level would not work in both places.
Oh yeah, I followed your Bridge tower rabbit hole.
There were no citations from engineers or academia claiming the curve of the earth being figured in the plans.
Only thing resembling a citation was an excerpt from a poet.
I'll address your baseless assertions about gas laws later.
Wife just got home from work.
Well, actually, when building a cabinet we never use a level or plumb bob. We use a tape measure and a framing square. We use the tape measure to make sure it is the correct size. We use table saws to make sure all our cuts are either parallel or perpendicular, and we use the raming square to make sure the carcass is square as we assemble it.

Once it is time to hang the cabinet, out comes the level. Local level is always based on the local radial plumb bob. Since level is defined as perpendicular to plumb, the cabinet is always level wherever it is installed.

You are correct in stating that radial lines are "sloped" relative to each other. Plumb lines are radial and they always point in the direction of gravity (towards the center of the Earth) no matter where you are on Earth. That is why levels work anywhere on Earth.
 
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