# The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

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#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
When the earth blocks the suns rays to the moon (flat earth is already invalidated by that) the suns rays are blocked at a curve (flat earth invalidated again).

If you want to remain stupid, believe in a flat earth.
if you want to live in reality, the earth is a sphere.
Sun shining rays onto the moon in and from a place that can't exist.
Outer space is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

#### JudgeRightly

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You being a cabinet maker should be able to grasp the error in your thinking.

There's no error.

If your earth is a sphere and the plumb bob always points to the center that will produce radials around it.
Radials are slanted not vertical.

What, you mean like this?

Problem?

plumb
4 of 4

1
: exactly vertical or true

ver·ti·cal
[ˈvərdək(ə)l]

1. at right angles to a horizontal plane; in a direction, or having an alignment, such that the top is directly above the bottom:

Definitions of horizontal

parallel to or in the plane of the horizon or a base line
“a horizontal surface”
Synonyms:crosswise
in the shape of (a horizontal piece on) a cross
flat
horizontally level
level
being on a precise horizontal plane

Yes, we know, thank you.

So, @CabinetMaker only 6 places standing on a globe with a supposed gravitational pull to the center would give you level 90 degrees off a plumb bob line.

Only in relation to another plumb bob line.

The one in the location you are at would be perfectly vertical, and 90 degrees perpendicular to it would be horizontal, for that plumb line.

So what's the problem?

The top and bottom directly above and below the center and 4 points 90 degrees from the center out.

4 points? What?

Every other place your line will not be plumb.

Are all the children in the above image standing vertically (or at least, close enough to call it vertical), relative to the child at the top of the image?

Are all the children in the above image standing vertically (or at least, close enough to call it vertical), relative to the earth?

Why do you think that both answers to the above questions should be the same?

Taking 90 from a plumb bob line would give you different angles around the globe thus changing what level actually is.

Only in relation to the original plumb bob line.

But if you moved the plumb bob line around, then the direction it will be pulled will change, and thus, so will the level.

In other words, you're trying to say that the children in the image above are not all vertical relative to the earth, because they're not vertical relative to the child at the top of the earth.

Do you not see how stupid that is?

That would make using a tool we call a level foolishness.

Only if verticality was defined by a single plumb bob line at one location on the earth, rather than based on one's current location.

If I build a cabinet level in my basement and I ship it 1,000 miles and the level isn't the same it would hang crooked.

But it won't hang crooked, not if you've built it to hang level, because the direction of verticality will have changed.

Or, to use the image provided: If you were the blond girl in the top left, and you shipped your cabinet to the blond girl in the top right, your cabinet (assuming it was built correctly) would hang level in both places, because the direction of "vertical" depends on location.

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Or, to use the image provided: If you were the blond girl in the top left, and you shipped your cabinet to the blond girl in the top right, your cabinet (assuming it was built correctly) would hang level in both places, because the direction of "vertical" depends on location.
Then your level wouldn't work in both places.
The tool known as a level does not hinge on where you are when you use it.

#### JudgeRightly

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Sun shining rays onto the moon in and from a place that can't exist.
Outer space is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Then your level wouldn't work in both places.

You didn't answer my questions.

Are the children in the above image standing vertically in their respective locations on the earth?

Are they all standing vertically relative to the child at the top of the image?

Why do you think the answers to those two questions should be the same?

The tool known as a level does not hinge on where you are when you use it.

Yes, it does, in the same way that all of the children are vertical relative to their location on the earth, but not vertical relative to a different location on the earth.

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Saying it doesn't make it so.

You didn't answer my questions.

Are the children in the above image standing vertically in their respective locations on the earth?

Are they all standing vertically relative to the child at the top of the image?

Why do you think the answers to those two questions should be the same?

Yes, it does, in the same way that all of the children are vertical relative to their location on the earth, but not vertical relative to a different location on the earth.
You are forgetting that vertical is determined from the center of a sphere.

#### JudgeRightly

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You are forgetting that vertical is determined from the center of a sphere.

Wrong.

Vertical is determined by the center of mass.

The earth is not a uniform sphere, it is denser in some locations than others, and thus, its center of mass is not at the exact center of the earth. But for the purposes of making it easy for idiots like you to understand, we use a sphere with a center of mass at the center of the sphere.

And you don't believe any of that anyways.

You think vertical is the same absolute direction no matter where you are on earth.

Sane people, on the other hand, recognize that vertical is in fact "plumb," and that "plumb" is the indicator for the direction that the center of mass is that are above, and thus being pulled towards.

In other words, that all the children in the image above are vertical, relative to their location on the earth, BECAUSE vertical is determined by the center of gravity, which for the purposes of educating idiots like you, is at the center of the earth in that image.

Yet you're trying to insist that we accept that the children are not vertical, because they're not vertical relative to one of the children on the earth.

Do you not realize how stupid that is?

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Wrong.

Vertical is determined by the center of mass.
Yes.
The mass we are examining is your globe.

#### JudgeRightly

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[something about unstable objects]

Yes, we know, thank you.

Yes.
The mass we are examining is your globe.

Please answer the questions you were asked regarding this image:

Are the children in the above image standing vertically in their respective locations on the earth?

Are they all standing vertically relative to the child at the top of the image?

Why do you think the answers to those two questions should be the same?

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Are the children in the above image standing vertically in their respective locations on the earth?
No.
Are they all standing vertically relative to the child at the top of the image?
No.
Why do you think the answers to those two questions should be the same?
Because only the child at the top and bottom are perpendicular to the equatorial plane.

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Why do you think the answers to those two questions should be the same?
Correction only the child at the top is perpendicular to the equatorial plane.

#### JudgeRightly

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You said in post #4279:

If your earth is a sphere and the plumb bob always points to the center

And:

plumb

. . .

exactly vertical or true

"If the earth is a sphere, and the plumb bob always points to the center"
"plumb - exactly vertical"

With the above in mind:

If the children in the image above had plumb bobs of their own, and were holding them in their hands, would each of the bobs be pulled towards the bottom of the image, or would they all be pulled towards the center of the "earth" in that image?

If you say: "The plumb bobs of all of the children would point towards the bottom of the image," then you are either trolling, or you are straw manning our position, for you yourself can comprehend and even conceded for the sake of your argument that our position is that the plumb bob would always point to the center of the sphere (represented by the "circular 'earth' with the continent of North America on it"), and not being consistent with your reasoning.

On the other hand, if you say: "The plumb bobs of all the children would point towards the center of the earth in the image," then your answer of "No" to my above question contradicts what you conceded for the sake of your argument, and you would have to admit that you're answer of "No" to my above question is definitely wrong, according to what you yourself have conceded, if only for the sake of your argument.

The correct answer is "Yes." The children are all vertical relative to their respective locations on the earth. Remember, we're discussing OUR position for the moment, so to defeat our position, you need to show how our position is inconsistent. You cannot do that if you are not yourself consistent.

Correct.

Because . . .
. . . only the child at the top is perpendicular to the equatorial plane.

Why does that mean that the answers to the two other questions must be the same?

The equatorial plane is not the "center" of the earth. It certainly INCLUDES the center of the earth, but it, itself, is not the "center."

If a plumb bob always points to the center of the earth (and not the equatorial plane, which no one here has ever claimed that it points to the equatorial plane), then, would you not be able to draw a line from the center of the earth, and have it run straight through each plumb bob line that each child is holding, and it be perfectly coaxial to them, because the plumb bob lines always point towards the center?

Or are you once again straw-manning our position, trying to argue against a position that we do not hold, that being, "plumb bobs always point "down" through the equatorial plane"?

Note that I did not mention anything about the equatorial plane in my questions. I only asked two questions, the first being about each child's verticality relative to their position on the earth (which would be the small arc (a geometric term) of the 'earth' in the image, a 'piece of the pie,' so to speak) on which they stood, and the area directly beneath them, and each child's verticality relative to the child at the top of the image.

#### CabinetMaker

##### Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
The dip correction is for the height above sea "level" to the horizon.

You being a cabinet maker should be able to grasp the error in your thinking.
If your earth is a sphere and the plumb bob always points to the center that will produce radials around it.
Radials are slanted not vertical.

plumb
4 of 4

1
: exactly vertical or true

ver·ti·cal
[ˈvərdək(ə)l]

1. at right angles to a horizontal plane; in a direction, or having an alignment, such that the top is directly above the bottom:
Definitions of horizontal

parallel to or in the plane of the horizon or a base line
“a horizontal surface”
Synonyms:crosswise
in the shape of (a horizontal piece on) a cross
flat
horizontally level
level
being on a precise horizontal plane​

So, @CabinetMaker only 6 places standing on a globe with a supposed gravitational pull to the center would give you level 90 degrees off a plumb bob line. The top and bottom directly above and below the center and 4 points 90 degrees from the center out.
Every other place your line will not be plumb.
Taking 90 from a plumb bob line would give you different angles around the globe thus changing what level actually is.
That would make using a tool we call a level foolishness.

If I build a cabinet level in my basement and I ship it 1,000 miles and the level isn't the same it would hang crooked.

You are correct that plump lines on the Earth result in lines that are radial. The towers of the Golden Gate bridge are farther apart at the top than they are at the bottom because the towers a plumb to the surface of the Earth. Bridge Towers

You are incorrect about there only being 6 places on Earth that would give you level 90 degrees of a plumb bob. The correct answer is that every single point on Earth will be plumb. Since the definition of level is perpendicular to plumb, there is a level horizontal tangent plane on every point on Earth. It is also true that these horizontal planes ARE NOT parallel to each other. There is no requirement that they must be parallel to each other.

If I build a cabinet in my basement and ship it 1000 miles and hang it, it will still be level because level is always defined off the local plumb line, not the one I used in my shop.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics shows that in order to have gas pressure there must be containment.
You can't have a pressure gradient without first having containment.
Since 1905 Einstein's theory of relativity did away with gravity as a force.
Since gravity isn't a force why are you talking about a gravity well?
You thinkin' a gravity well is a force?
The second law does not say that all. You are conflating ideal gas laws and entropy. Ideal gas laws do not apply to the atmosphere as it is not a contained system.

Gravity is not a force, it is an acceleration. However, a force is defined as a mass times and acceleration. For instance, your weight is a force. Your weight is equal to your mass times the acceleration of gravity W=m*g.

Air molecules have mass. Not much, but the do have it so that means they have weight and will be drawn towards the Earth. Since each molecule is pulled down, they begin to stack up on each other which gives rise to a very real and measurable atmospheric pressure gradient. At sea level, the air pressure is about 14psi. Where I live, the normal atmospheric pressure is about 12.4psi. At the top of the ski mountains the air pressure is 10 psi. If you follow this trend you will find that the air pressure falls from 14psi at sea level and drops to zero are the edge of space. In essence, Earth's gravity creates a well that contains the atmosphere near the surface of the earth. It should also be noted that since there is zero atmospheric pressure at the edge of space, which means there is no pressure to push our atmosphere into space. Remember, a vacuum does not suck anything, it is simply a volume that has zero air pressure. In order for air to move to a vacuum, the air pressure must push the air into the vacuum. But air pressure is a function of gravity that pulls air to the surface of Earth so there is no force to push our atmosphere into space. It is a marvel of God's act of creation!

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
If I build a cabinet in my basement and ship it 1000 miles and hang it, it will still be level because level is always defined off the local plumb line, not the one I used in my shop.
Folks these days don't use plumb bobs to build a cabinet.
You use a tool called a level when building a cabinet.
Which as I've pointed out previously in this thread is indiscriminate as to where you use it.
If level was defined as you say as 90 degrees from a slanted/sloped radial a level would not work in both places.
Oh yeah, I followed your Bridge tower rabbit hole.
There were no citations from engineers or academia claiming the curve of the earth being figured in the plans.
Only thing resembling a citation was an excerpt from a poet.
Wife just got home from work.

#### Gary K

##### New member
Banned
The dip correction is for the height above sea "level" to the horizon.

You being a cabinet maker should be able to grasp the error in your thinking.
If your earth is a sphere and the plumb bob always points to the center that will produce radials around it.
Radials are slanted not vertical.

plumb
4 of 4

1
: exactly vertical or true

ver·ti·cal
[ˈvərdək(ə)l]

1. at right angles to a horizontal plane; in a direction, or having an alignment, such that the top is directly above the bottom:
Definitions of horizontal

parallel to or in the plane of the horizon or a base line
“a horizontal surface”
Synonyms:crosswise
in the shape of (a horizontal piece on) a cross
flat
horizontally level
level
being on a precise horizontal plane​

So, @CabinetMaker only 6 places standing on a globe with a supposed gravitational pull to the center would give you level 90 degrees off a plumb bob line. The top and bottom directly above and below the center and 4 points 90 degrees from the center out.
Every other place your line will not be plumb.
Taking 90 from a plumb bob line would give you different angles around the globe thus changing what level actually is.
That would make using a tool we call a level foolishness.

If I build a cabinet level in my basement and I ship it 1,000 miles and the level isn't the same it would hang crooked.
rxactly
Your reasoning is deeply flawed. I plumb bob is vertical due to gravity, and a level held up to it is at exactly 90 degrees to it when the level is level. Due to the physical size of the earth it means any nearby radian variations are so small are meaningless. It's not as if we're creating radians on a basketball or baseball where a radian a few inches away are meaningful. One degree radians on earth are are 69.4 miles apart.

#### JudgeRightly

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Folks these days don't use plumb bobs to build a cabinet.
You use a tool called a level when building a cabinet.
Which as I've pointed out previously in this thread is indiscriminate as to where you use it.

Your brain seems to have disconnected for a moment.

A level (the tool) is defined as "a device consisting of a sealed glass tube partially filled with alcohol or other liquid, containing an air bubble whose position reveals whether a surface is perfectly level or plumb."

A level is also "a horizontal plane or line with respect to the distance above or below a given point."

Level means "having a flat and even surface without slopes or bumps."

You, in post #4279, gave these definitions (which I have formatted slightly for ease of reading) for vertical, plumb, and horizontally level, which I agree with.

vertical - at right angles to a horizontal plane

plumb - exactly vertical or true

horizontally level - being on a precise horizontal plane; parallel to or in the plane of the horizon or a base line
“a horizontal surface”

If a "level" (the tool) will always show whether a surface is level (a flat, even surface without slopes), then that level (a horizontal plane) is, by definition, 90 degrees (a right angle) from vertical.

With me so far?

Plumb line will ALWAYS be vertical, no matter where on earth it is.

That means a plumb line will always be at a right angle to a level surface.

A plumb line is a radial from the center of the earth.

No matter where on earth you go, a radial line will always go from the center of the earth through that plumb line, and any surface you make level will always be perpendicular to that radial, BY DEFINITION.

A level will always be indiscriminate where you use it BECAUSE it will ALWAYS show a horizontal plane that is perpendicular to the radial from the center of the earth.

If level was defined as you say as 90 degrees from a slanted/sloped radial a level would not work in both places.

It's not defined by that.

Level is defined by being 90 degrees from vertical.

The radial is ALWAYS vertical in the position it is in.

If you move two feet, you're at a different radial, and you base your measurements on the new radial, not the old one.

If you move 1000 miles, you're at a third radial. You don't base your measurements off the first or second radial, because then none of your surfaces would be level or vertical, they'd be off by however many degrees.

So when building a cabinet, base your definitions of vertical on where you're at, not what vertical is a thousand miles away.

However, if you're building the Golden Gate Bridge, you need to take into consideration what is vertical at either end of the bridge, and what vertical is at the location of the support towers, because it's so large.

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Level means "having a flat and even surface without slopes or bumps."
A radial is sloped genius.

#### Gary K

##### New member
Banned
A radial is sloped genius.

Are you going to answer the following post?

#### 1Mind1Spirit

##### Literal lunatic
Your reasoning is deeply flawed. I plumb bob is vertical due to gravity, and a level held up to it is at exactly 90 degrees to it when the level is level. Due to the physical size of the earth it means any nearby radian variations are so small are meaningless. It's not as if we're creating radians on a basketball or baseball where a radian a few inches away are meaningful. One degree radians on earth are are 69.4 miles apart.
When 90 degrees is taken from any degree of angle other than true vertical, aka plumb, aka no slope, the 90 degree angle will not be true horizontal, aka no slope.
Therefore it will not be level when you hold a level up to it.
Now let's take a look at what one degree difference would be 69.4 miles away from true plumb aka vertical.

Q. Looking for some help figuring out how to calculate distance equivalent to degrees.

e.g.: If I have a 2 degree tolerance for perpendicularity at 20" from the joint how much is 2 degrees in inches?

how would I figure out the given tolerance in inches over a given distance.

ex: 2 degrees at 20", 4 degrees at 20 inches etc.

Thank you everyone for your help

A. By dick
Date 05-08-2015 03:32
miracle point (angle-pitch) 2 degrees =.035 per inch .035x20= .7inch, 4 degrees =.07 per inch .07x20=1.4 inch
1 degree angle = .0175 pitch per inch or .210 inch per foot

Now if I build a cabinet 2 feet high by 8 feet long at true plumb and horizontal and haul it 69.4 miles away to where your house's ceilings and walls are one degree out it will be crooked.

2 x .210 = 0.42 That's almost a 1/2 inch out from the corner.
8 x .210 = 1.68 That's almost 1 3/4 inches out from the ceiling.

Try getting paid after hanging a cabinet like that.

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