The dim future of Britain

[rocketman]

No, I don't think that the above is true of us, here.

There several kinds of Judaism, scores of Christian, four kinds of Muslim, Several kinds if Hindu, Sikhs, Baha'is, lefthand pathers, Druids, all manner of agnostics and atheists, and those before political, social and other types such as nationality, colour, sexuality, etc.

And we mostly live well together whilst keeping our cultures, languages, etc to ourselves.

It somehow works, but we have always had difficulties with sectarian terrorism. So do most of our neighbours.

We will just have to take it a day at a time.

It is obvious that you are not getting the concept of which I speak, America has peoples from vast different cultures, races, religion, et al but, assimilation into being an American is paramount, assimilation includes allegiance. If a persons allegiance to their sect trumps allegiance to the country they dwell in that is where the problem lies. It is that allegiance that causes sectarian violence within your borders, immigration without assimilation is an epic fail, and that is exactly what Europe & the UK are experiencing, and it is what America is attempting to avoid even with all the whining pushback from marxist liberals.

 

[SOJ II]

It is obvious that you are not getting the concept of which I speak, America has peoples from vast different cultures, races, religion, et al but, assimilation into being an American is paramount, assimilation includes allegiance. If a persons allegiance to their sect trumps allegiance to the country they dwell in that is where the problem lies. It is that allegiance that causes sectarian violence within your borders, immigration without assimilation is an epic fail, and that is exactly what Europe & the UK are experiencing, and it is what America is attempting to avoid even with all the whining pushback from marxist liberals.

I think I understand what you are saying. Basically, if someone comes over to your house to live or even to visit, they are under an obligation to assimilate to the expectations you have for living or visiting your house. Additionally, it is responsibility to teach what those expectations are (both before and after they arrive). If they cannot or will not assimilate to the rocketman household, then they cannot stay. If you visit the rocketman household and expect to live the way you do in your own household, then there will be, by necessity, some conflict and maybe eventually a play for dominance by one or both parties involved.

I agree with rocketman that there are certain cultural expectations or standards that must be fixed if nation-states are expected to exist. When you begin to involve various worldviews (whether they are sacred or secular), it gets even more complicated. Generally speaking (specifically the extremist form), Islam is a cohesive cultural-religious worldview, which doesn't distinguish between the sacred and the secular. It's not just Islam that does this. Atheistic Communism does the same thing by replacing the sacred with the secular. That spells trouble for a culture that does distinguish between the two. The two will be at odds because there is no common ground for them to stand upon.

 

[eider]

Oh ok. I got that advice from an Irishman.

He was taking the mikey out of you!
They use the Shillelagh, a blackthorn crooked stick. Awful nasty things.

 

[eider]

It is obvious that you are not getting the concept of which I speak, America has peoples from vast different cultures, races, religion, et al but, assimilation into being an American is paramount, assimilation includes allegiance. If a persons allegiance to their sect trumps allegiance to the country they dwell in that is where the problem lies. It is that allegiance that causes sectarian violence within your borders, immigration without assimilation is an epic fail, and that is exactly what Europe & the UK are experiencing, and it is what America is attempting to avoid even with all the whining pushback from marxist liberals.

In recent years I have even heard of US politicians managing to shut down its government system for a time, just to damage opposing leadershiop wishes, hopes and legislations. Allegiance?

Read threads and posts on this forum and they show quite clearly how unassimilated the US is. Just how many serious killing incidents have you experienced in the US in the last few years? I seem to remember school, college, sporting and transport incidents? Many of them?

Like your country, ours has extremist individuals who hate enough to kill and injure others. We're working on the present situation as best we can. I have a sneaky suspicion that your ideas for cure would just push our 'togetherness' much further apart.

 

[eider]

You'll 'prolly' still be this boring tomorrow.

:yawn:

Probably.....

Arthur....... A football hooligan with a 'NF' background and a horrendous record of 'on' and 'off' stadium violence, in the UK and abroad, has been speaking about how he has been 'dealt with'.

Apparently he had his passport revoked, has been banned from using Rail Travel, banned from every football stadium in the entire UK, has to report to his local Police Station on certain Saturdays, + had a range of other sentences includiong tagging for several months with a curfew......... and he wonders why we aren't using some of these hindrances on 'high-risk' individuals.

Of course he got charged, tried and convicted.... several times, which is different from a 'suspected risk', but I do like the idea of tagging high-risks.... it's just a question of what somebody has to do to be defined as a high-risk.

What do you think of tagging? I think some of these systems are even fitted with EPIRBs now?

 

[musterion]

In recent years I have even heard of US politicians managing to shut down its government system for a time, just to damage opposing leadershiop wishes, hopes and legislations. Allegiance?

Read threads and posts on this forum and they show quite clearly how unassimilated the US is. Just how many serious killing incidents have you experienced in the US in the last few years? I seem to remember school, college, sporting and transport incidents? Many of them?

Like your country, ours has extremist individuals who hate enough to kill and injure others. We're working on the present situation as best we can. I have a sneaky suspicion that your ideas for cure would just push our 'togetherness' much further apart.

And for all that, for all our faults, this is still a freer, better and more prosperous nation to live in then what you currently endure. Compare stats from the last 50 years of how many people have emigrated to the US from the UK versus the reverse.

 

[rocketman]

I think I understand what you are saying. Basically, if someone comes over to your house to live or even to visit, they are under an obligation to assimilate to the expectations you have for living or visiting your house. Additionally, it is responsibility to teach what those expectations are (both before and after they arrive). If they cannot or will not assimilate to the rocketman household, then they cannot stay. If you visit the rocketman household and expect to live the way you do in your own household, then there will be, by necessity, some conflict and maybe eventually a play for dominance by one or both parties involved.

I agree with rocketman that there are certain cultural expectations or standards that must be fixed if nation-states are expected to exist. When you begin to involve various worldviews (whether they are sacred or secular), it gets even more complicated. Generally speaking (specifically the extremist form), Islam is a cohesive cultural-religious worldview, which doesn't distinguish between the sacred and the secular. It's not just Islam that does this. Atheistic Communism does the same thing by replacing the sacred with the secular. That spells trouble for a culture that does distinguish between the two. The two will be at odds because there is no common ground for them to stand upon.

Wow! finally someone who understands (or at least attempts to) what I have been attempting to convey. Thank you for unpacking it so well, and putting it into such an understandable way for everyone. :BRAVO:

 

[rocketman]

In recent years I have even heard of US politicians managing to shut down its government system for a time, just to damage opposing leadershiop wishes, hopes and legislations. Allegiance?

That's politics, and politicians who's allegiances are to themselves first, their sect/party thereafter, and have completely lost sight of the people they are supposed to represent with their sectarianism.

Read threads and posts on this forum and they show quite clearly how unassimilated the US is. Just how many serious killing incidents have you experienced in the US in the last few years? I seem to remember school, college, sporting and transport incidents? Many of them?

I will admit that assimilation & sectarianism is a growing problem in our country as well, that is why nothing gets done for the good of the country or it's citizenry...it is a divided nation sadly.

Like your country, ours has extremist individuals who hate enough to kill and injure others. We're working on the present situation as best we can. I have a sneaky suspicion that your ideas for cure would just push our 'togetherness' much further apart.

You have to define what you want that "togetherness" to look like first, having multiple cultures fighting for dominance, especially toxic ideologies of some cultures willing to commit violence to destroy your culture is not an acceptable situation.

 

[eider]

And for all that, for all our faults, this is still a freer, better and more prosperous nation to live in then what you currently endure. Compare stats from the last 50 years of how many people have emigrated to the US from the UK versus the reverse.

You are useless.
You turn conditions into faults, spin them into criticisms, and then use them in contentious argument.
This time your pathetic argument is 'My country is better than yours'.

How old are you?

 

[eider]

That's politics, and politicians who's allegiances are to themselves first, their sect/party thereafter, and have completely lost sight of the people they are supposed to represent with their sectarianism.

Fair enough...... but here in the UK, when things get bad, we assimilate into coalition. And so, although there will be a general election tomorrow, in difficulty there is a basic accord which rises above politics.

I will admit that assimilation & sectarianism is a growing problem in our country as well, that is why nothing gets done for the good of the country or it's citizenry...it is a divided nation sadly.

We divide here on many issues, and 'things' heat up...... but generally speaking we do live 'side by side' and work 'side by side' very well. My father-in-law is very anti-immigration, a 'send them home' bigot, a secular pagan, but before retirement he worked in a team with Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Nigerian Christians and I know that he got on really well with them. Now that's how strange our kind of assimilation is.

You have to define what you want that "togetherness" to look like first, having multiple cultures fighting for dominance, especially toxic ideologies of some cultures willing to commit violence to destroy your culture is not an acceptable situation.

OK..... I already touched on my definition above, but my attempt would be something like 'We travel, work and trade very well together, but our varying cultures and ideologies are separate and private within our separate communities.'

Of course, you're seeing where it fails, just now.

But it was failing in the 70s and 80s very badly. The Brighton, Guildford, Birmingham and other bombings were huge and horrific. I expect that people like you would have understood exactly what was happening back then in the UK, but many US citizens didn't understand it all. PIRA, UDR and many other sections were passing buckets around your bars etc and US folks were filling them, unaware that these sections were killing each other, and surveys showed that folks had no idea about any of the situation.

I don't expect that many understand about our problems with football violence. Some teams are Protestant supporters, other Catholic...... like Rangers and Celtic. Such games used to be very very fraut.

If you go into some pubs in SCOTLAND and speak, you could be welcomed, or quietly told that your pub is over the road. But these folks work together!

We don't even fully understand ourselves, so you've got no chance!

 

[DavidK]

Every sudden jihadist who has killed people in the UK has had someone able to say, "But I thought he was one of the peaceful ones!"

That's the problem you have right there and you know it.

Isn't that largely true of disgruntled white males who shoot up schools as well? Maybe we should deport unmarried men over a certain age who spend too much time playing video games and subscribe to Soldier of Fortune.

 

[DavidK]

The false construct is the belief that multiculturalism without assimilation into western society can work, it causes sectarianism which was also noted by your prime minister BTW. I have been saying it all along, maybe not explaining my position well enough but, every nation has a single culture, usually made up of many cultures that exist together peacefully, and any nation that allows multiple different cultures to reside together there will be problems with dominance, and which culture will be the dominant one, that is sectarianism, there needs to be assimilation into the one national culture & identity or it never works....and never has.

What is the threshold for assimilation?

I'm close with a group of homeschooling, pop-culture avoiding, eschatologically focused people who see ourselves as ambassadors from a spiritual kingdom only resident in our nation for a limited time. We gather together often enough for prayer meetings to be considered freakish by a large portion of even people who identify as Christian and most of us don't really observe the national holidays.

Should we be deported? Where in the world would we be sent that we'd fit in with the dominant culture?

 

[rocketman]

What is the threshold for assimilation?

I'm close with a group of homeschooling, pop-culture avoiding, eschatologically focused people who see ourselves as ambassadors from a spiritual kingdom only resident in our nation for a limited time. We gather together often enough for prayer meetings to be considered freakish by a large portion of even people who identify as Christian and most of us don't really observe the national holidays.

Should we be deported? Where in the world would we be sent that we'd fit in with the dominant culture?

Are you a subversive bent on the destruction of this nation? Are you willing to commit acts of violence on your fellow citizens who do not agree with your worldview? If not, you are no more freakish than any other American who wants to live in peace & freedom and I would say you have assimilated.

Or were you just being snarky....

 

[musterion]

Both.

 

[musterion]

You are useless.
You turn conditions into faults, spin them into criticisms, and then use them in contentious argument.
This time your pathetic argument is 'My country is better than yours'.

How old are you?

Someone here...maybe you, I don't remember...tried to compare your fake stiff upper lip pose with Brits during Hitler's bombings of England in the 40s.

False analogy for at least two reasons. First, the Brits had recognized and named their enemy. Second, they were actively seeking that enemy's destruction at any cost.

Neither of those points apply to Britain today.

Back then, had they invented the A-bomb they would have used it on Berlin without a second thought and would have been completely justified in doing it.

How old are you?

 

[eider]

Someone here...maybe you, I don't remember...tried to compare your fake stiff upper lip pose with Brits during Hitler's bombings of England in the 40s.

False analogy for at least two reasons. First, the Brits had recognized and named their enemy. Second, they were actively seeking that enemy's destruction at any cost.

Neither of those points apply to Britain today.

Back then, had they invented the A-bomb they would have used it on Berlin without a second thought and would have been completely justified in doing it.

How old are you?

Don't tell me what Churchill would have done in order to try and excuse your own genocidal tendencies.

 

[musterion]

First, no one here is talking about genocide except you. Second, how many hundreds of bomber crews did the Brits lose fire-bombing German cities for days on end, killing tens of thousands? Idiot. History does not start with you.

 

[eider]

First, no one here is talking about genocide except you. Second, how many hundreds of bomber crews did the Brits lose fire-bombing German cities for days on end, killing tens of thousands? Idiot. History does not start with you.

We never firebombed any cities during any days at all.
Your history is rubbish.

Now, Tehran's monument to Ayatollah Khomeini has been bombed by Isis terrorists, and Kabul gets bombed most weeks. Pakistan has been terrorised as well, I believe. In fact the senior Muslim Scholars in Pakistan have declared the terrorist attacks by Isis and el Queida to be Haram.

And yet you insist that all Muslims are either terrorists or supporters of terrorism.
You are seriously wrong, probably quite nuts.

We'll never listen to people like you. We'll stand together, all together, and the worse it gets so the closer together we will stand.

Your brand of Christianity, whatever it's Creed is, will never win over here, because you are hate filled and an escalator of strife and conflict.

Is that clear enough?

 

[jgarden]

The dim future of Britain

Trump and his supporters should note that the attacks in Britain were limited to bombs and vehicles - as opposed to assault weapons.

There is no equivalent to the 2nd Amendment in Great Britain, and assault weapons with large magazines are relatively difficult to obtain!

The net result is that the number of casualties resulting from these attacks were limited, in marked contrast to similar incidents in America where assault rifles have become the weapon of choice!

 

[DavidK]

Are you a subversive bent on the destruction of this nation? Are you willing to commit acts of violence on your fellow citizens who do not agree with your worldview? If not, you are no more freakish than any other American who wants to live in peace & freedom and I would say you have assimilated.

Or were you just being snarky....

Not being snarky at all.

There seems to be a lot of bravado about deporting all the muslims, blasting all the muslim nations into wastelands, and the like. People are claiming societies can't survive unless the cultures within them assimilate, and that everyone should have to swear loyalty to a country before being allowed to be in it.

And yet, with a little push back, we mostly recognize that it's really about whether a person wants to do violence. When you get to "people who want to violently overthrow the country" should be deported, there's no disagreement. The left and the right both support deporting terrorists.

I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of the former, and get to the latter.

If your definition of "assimilation" is simply the lack of the desire to blow things up, then it's a very weak definition and you should just be saying get rid of the violent people, instead of people who refuse to melt in the pot, so to speak.