The beginning of time is the first event.
The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?
- Thread starter Arial
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That's not what I asked.
Please answer the question I asked:
Was God creating an event in and of itself?
He created the first moments. Thus we can conclude there is a beginning being a first moment for the noninfinite universe.
God in the beginning (which beginning too?) created the Earth. God comes before beginning from in the LXX.
Arial
Active member
I read the first paragraph. Why would I take my beliefs from someone who denies what God says about Himself? The fact that he, and open theism, makes a claim that an omniscient God has pagan origins (unvalidated. If they thought their god had to be unchangable, why did they need so many?)is meaningless. Christianity gets that knowledge straight out of what the Bible says. It isn't borrowed from anywhere.I recommend reading this article by Christopher Fischer, someone I met recently, and who has his own podcast.
the greek origin of omniscience
The concept of omniscience in rooted in the idea of God’s “perfection”. In platonism, the perfect cannot change. Thus, if god changed (such as learning new information) then god would not be perfec…realityisnotoptional.com
Now read the rest of it.
And that would be, what, exactly?
You didn't bother to provide any scripture.
No. What he's saying is that the idea that God (or, in the case of the pagan Greeks, their gods) has omniscience has it's origins in pagan philosophy.
Big difference.
It is a fact of history that the Greeks believed their gods to be omniscient. It is a fact of history that Augustine brought that idea into Christianity.
Red herring. Stay on topic.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Wrong. Augustine is the one who introduced pagan Greek philosophical ideas into Christianity. This is fact.
Those ideas do NOT originate in the Bible.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
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Now you're actively avoiding the question.
Why does me asking you if God creating for the first time qualify as an event cause you to squirm so much?
Answer the question: Was God creating, itself, an event?
Meaningless gibberish until you can answer my question.
Self-contradictory statements like this one cause me to question your sanity.
Arial
Active member
No need. It is hogwash.
I provided scripture already. It is what started this exchange. You saying no matter what the scriptures I quoted say, they mean what you say they mean.
So, same thing.
The question came out of suppositions you were making, so a red herring only in your eyes.
Why don't you Just write "chorus" everytime this is your inane response to something you can't disprove. We all know it by heart.
"Chorus."
You can't honestly say that if you haven't read it.
Your appeal to the stone is a logical fallacy.
Refresh my memory.
No, not the same thing.
It's a red herring because it's going off topic. A rabbit trail.
Says the one who refuses to back up her arguments.
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
It shouldn't take any work to defeat that accusation.
It's not meaningless. The idea that God is omniscient having pagan origins is a valid observation of history.
It affects one's entire theology, and thus, ignoring it's origin has a drastic impact on why one believes what he or she believes.
Arial
Active member
The fact that some aspects of pagan polytheistic practices involved their deities being omniscient, does not conclude that is where the theology of God (the one true and living God) in Christianity that recognizes the omniscience of this one true and living God, as He reveals Himself in our Bible, is borrowed from the pagans.
The pagan nations surrounding Israel also had covenants and sacrifices. Does that mean that those things too originated in paganism?
But you are right in one thing. Knowing that God is omniscient, and by His own declaration, determines what one believes and understands about Him. For example His repeatedly telling His people to trust in Him. If He is not omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent---how can we? The supposed "origins" of something do not change whether a thing is true or not. Did God exist before the pagan idolatrous practices of worship, or after them? Who is the origin in that scenario?
Arial
Active member
?? Could you please tell me what you are referring to?
Arial
Active member
Logical fallacy is a overused catch phrase, one that is already waning in popularity of forums. It most often is used by people who think the phrase alone will give cred, to what they say so as to not have to actually say anything. I do not need to read it. It is the propaganda of an open theist. I do not care what he has to say about it, it is bound to be slanted and untrustworthy from the get go.
JR said: "refresh my memory" (operator fowlup)
Second verse following the chorus.
No, he created the Heavens, the Earth and everything that is in them in six days.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Omniskeptical! Saying it simply does not make it so.
It does not exist outside a thinking mind. It is not a thing, it is an idea. It exists in the same sense that distance exists. There is no THING that is "distance". Distance is an idea. Its a way of referencing the location of an object (a thing that does exist) relative to another object. Time is the same sort of thing. It's just a convention of language. We use it to discuss the duration and sequence of events relative to other events.
You can poo-poo that idea all you like but you cannot escape the truth of it. There is NO way you can make any reference to time without comparing one event with another because that's all time is.
Think that statement through, Omniskeptical, if you can or dare.
Creating something is an event, is it not?
How then is your statement here not a contradiction?
Clete
In other words, you're saying:
[That some pagan philosophical constructs exist does not mean that God being omniscient is from the pagans.]
Is that correct?
Because it's flatly false.
The argument presented is that Augustine brought the idea that deities are omniscient into Christianity FROM the pagan Greek philosophers, and applied it to God. The idea didn't exist in Christianity prior to him doing so.
Augustine was (sadly) told by his mother's bishop to interpret the Bible in light of Plato, and to interpret whatever agrees with him as literal, and where it disagrees, take it as figurative.
That's a fact of history, Arial.
Irrelevant to the discussion.
God isn't omniscient, and never declares Himself to be.
On the contrary, He says things like:
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” - Genesis 18:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis18:21&version=NKJV
And
And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis22:12&version=NKJV
How can we trust in a God who is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, immutable, or impassable?
Here's how:
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. - John 15:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John15:13&version=NKJV
And:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. - John 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:16&version=NKJV
And:
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. - John 19:30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John19:30&version=NKJV
That's how we can trust Him. Not because of how much knowledge He has, not because of how much power He has, not because of how many places He can be at once. Not because of what He cannot do or be affected by.
We can trust Him because He showed us that He loves us enough to die for us.
Not in dispute.
Irrelevant to the discussion.
It's not when the person is using logical fallacies to support their arguments.
So what?
As someone who constantly calls people out for using logical fallacies, I assure you, it's not about credibility of myself, it's about holding the other person accountable to the truth.
So then, how would you respond to the following?
Have you stopped beating your spouse?
Would you:
A) say: "No."
B) say: "I never started"
C) Call out the person for asking a loaded question
You should, because it soundly refutes your position.
Didn't you just say "The supposed "origins" of something do not change whether a thing is true or not"?
I guess you don't really believe that then.
In other words, "I know that I'm right and you're wrong so I'm not going to listen anymore!"
Here's what I have to say to that:
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Because you say so?
Nope, sorry. God predetermining that a specific group called "in Him" to be holy and blameless isn't omniscience. It's called making a plan.
It's akin to an airline predetermining where an aircraft will go before it takes off.
There's an implied "in our hearts" there at the end.
"God knows all things [in our hearts]."
That's what the context is talking about.
Yes, God can know our thoughts between the time we think them and the moment it is uttered from our tongue.
What the verse does NOT say is that He knows our thoughts before we think them.
God can look at a person's head and instantly know how many hairs are there. He doesn't have a database of how many hairs everyone has on their head at every given point in time.
This one should be obvious.
God created them, therefore he already knows about them.
Self explanatory.
"Declaring the end from the beginning" is not "declaring everything in between."
Also, God remembering something isn't God knowing everything.
:yawn:
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Arial
Active member
Yes that is what I am saying. With the exception that I would say "does not mean that God being omniscient is borrowed from the pagans" No matter what someone attributes to the inner workings of Augustine's mind or anyone else's.
We aren't talking about deities. We are talking about God. That God is omniscient is self evident in His self revelation. He could not do what He has done and is doing if He did not know everything. Can you honestly say with any scriptural backup that Jesus or any of the apostles, or OT saints did not know that God is omniscient?
It is utterly irrelevant to the omniscience of God what Augustine's mother said to him or told him to do. In any case, Augustine grew considerably over time in his theology.
It isn't. You simply don't wish to address it.
He shows Himself to be, and He most certainly declares Himself to be. You find scriptures like the one above, that if interpreted the way you do, contradict a massive amount of things that are said clearly in the Bible. Rather than try and solve the paradox, which could take some time and effort, you choose the one you want to believe and discard the rest. That's a fact JR.
That was brilliantly stated, JR!
The Calvinists actually trusts God, not because He chooses to be trustworthy, but for the same reason they trust that stone idols don't rust and that water is wet. For them, love and any other relational aspect of God's character doesn't come into it. The god of Calvinism is an immutably unmovable, and thus inanimate, object.
Clete
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Arial
Active member
Abraham was put to a test by God, not to find out what he would do, but to test: a procedure intended to establish the quality of in this case Abraham's faith. And it is presented to us in language and manner that humans can understand, also known as anthropomorphic language. It teaches us something about God, but not what you took from it.
What if He gets so fed up with us that He changes His mind? And anyway that does not address all the things He says He knows in the Bible (including everything), and it only addresses salvation. What about the many covenant promises He made to Israel regarding their protection and care? How could He promise to feed them from the sixth year harvest , through no harvest in the seventh, and no harvest till harvest time of the eighth if He did not know everything? God knows everything because He governs everything.
No it isn't. You simply don't want to address it.
No, it is still a catch phrase. And though you said I used a logical fallacy, you failed to tell me what that logical fallacy was or what was fallacy about it and why. You simply declared it to be one. Ah---an ad hominem!
Then hold yourself to that same standard.
It is pretty loaded. What's your point?
That is a fallacy of some sort. It presumes that because it refutes what I said, that makes it right. (scratchin' my head on that one.) Not only that if presumes that I should do something just because you want me to. You have no legitimate reason to think that I should read something I have no interest in reading.
That's your doctrine but the bible tells us explicitly that the test was for God's sake, not Abraham's. The result of the test was...
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; FOR NOW I KNOW that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
That would be His prerogative and in fact we have been warned of precisely that...
Jeremiah 18: 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Romans 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
We do not deny the existence of figures of speech in the bible and this is why I have no problem with using the term "omniscient" in referrence to God. It is a type of hyperbole. When you say that God knows everything, it does not HAVE TO mean that God knows every single solitary exhaustive detail of all existence. It is perfectly acceptable to say such things in general terms and generally speaking God does know everything. The point is that the very same bible that says God knows everything, explicitly states that there are some things that God chooses to ignore and/or forget.
They were all conditional. (See! That's how one might speak in general terms.)
Jeremiah 18: 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
Seriously?
You think that God isn't capable of making crops produce what is needed to fulfill such a promise without first having peaked into the future to see what would happen in advance, or worse, having predestined what the crops would do prior to having made such a promise?
That's nonsense. The king of France rules all of France without even knowing how many of his subjects are awake and sober.
God's throne is not based on His prescience, His size or His power but on the quality of His character!
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Psalm 97:2 Clouds and darkness surround Him; Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
"Saying it doesn't make it so!" is the phrase you're looking for.
Go ahead! You can use it if you want! I don't think you'll like the result though, because if there is anyone on TOL who can establish the claims he makes, its Judge Rightly. Plus, hypocrisy is a sin, so it's probably best to avoid it whenever possible.
Establishing one thing as false would only prove something else as the truth if/when that something else is the only logical alternative.
Since God is either omniscient, in the classical sense of the term, or He is not, then falsifying one would prove the other.
You need to get just a bit of a grip here. It's not as if he actually thinks he has authority over you, Arial. Not only that, but he didn't even insinuate that you should do anything on the basis of him having made the suggestion. That's just you being reactionary.
Clete
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