Oh I despise you alright.
I wasn't referring to your comment about me being insulted, or that I despise you.
I was referring to your claim as to WHY I despise you, you know, this part:
The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?
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Oh I despise you alright.
I wasn't referring to your comment about me being insulted, or that I despise you.
I was referring to your claim as to WHY I despise you, you know, this part:
The following is me rambling on because I was off work today and didn't have anything else better to do with my time. It's not edited and only barely proof-read...
The Silver Lining to Gary K's Existence on TOL.
I have discussed, studied, debated, thought through just about every issue imaginable that touches dispensational theology since I was a teenager. That's something like four decades and something between 75 - 80% of my life and more than half of that time I've been just as deep into Open Theism. When I started, I knew next to nothing at all but even as young as sixth grade I knew that doctrine, like any other truth, had to make sense and, if it didn't make sense, there was something wrong about it.
I grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma which was the literal buckle of what was called "the bible belt" at the time. There were (and still are) Christian churches of every flavor all over the place and mega-churches grew on trees! We had Oral and Richard Roberts, Carlton Peterson, Kenneth Hagin, Billy Joe Daugherty and no one can fail to remember Robert Tilton! Tilton actually wasn't from Tulsa but I remember thinking that he was from Tulsa for years. When I was a teen, my dad's work was going to move us to the Dallas, TX area and we were looking to buy a house in a suburb called Farmer's Branch. I forget what changed to make it not happen but we never did move down there. I just remember someone telling me at the time that Farmer's Branch is where Robert Tilton's church was and being surprised to find out he wasn't in Tulsa. At any rate, the point is that there were churches all over the place!
The church I attended was across the parking lot from another church that I never stepped foot in and both of those churches were straight across the street from another church that I never stepped foot in either and I lived closer to both Oral Roberts University and Rema Bible College than I did the church I attended and probably drove past at least a dozen churches on the way to and from my church and I remember wondering on a very regular basis what the differences were between what those churches taught and what our church taught. When I was still very young, I remember making the childishly naive comment to my mom, as we passed by Tulsa Bible Church, something along the lines of "We sure are lucky that we found the church that teaches the bible right!"
For as long as I can remember, I have been surrounded by Christians and Christian churches of every stripe. I grew up during the time when Christian television was really taking off and I remember being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I've briefly bought into just about everything under the Sun when it comes to Christian doctrine. At one time I believed the TULIP doctrines were true, I was on the World Wide Church of God's mailing list for a while, I've sent money to Trinity Broadcasting Network and had a silver glittery bumber sticker on my bible to prove it.
At some point, I got out of the doctrinal wind tunnel! I still had it firmly in mind that if a doctrine didn't make sense, there was something wrong and I wasn't wise enough to descern which preacher was right and which wasn't, except I did intuitively distrust the "send me your money for a blessing" preachers like Robert Tilton and Oral Roberts. What I decided to do was to simply adopt doctrines based on the strength of the arguments for that doctrine. For example, I distinctly remember accepting the Baptist doctrine of once saved always saved based on a series of sermons given by Charles Stanley and I was fully persuaded that charasmatic theology was false by a book called "Charismatic Choas" by John McArthor. I took it one doctrine at a time and whichever position on that doctrine had the strongest argument (that I had heard) that's what I went with. And I wasn't lazy about it either. I read and listened and paid close attention to anything most any preacher or author had to say about nearly any doctrinal subject. I came to understand what all sorts of different Christians believed about all kinds of crazy things. I also figured out that there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between a great many difference Christian churches and if all you did was listen to the Sunday sermons, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between Baptists, Presbeterians, Lutherans or the Church of Christ.
Eventually, I was exposed to Bob Enyart's, "The Plot", which was just in an unpublished manuscript form at the time. I read it in almost one sitting and it totally opened the flood gates! It was as if God Himself had been taking me down this road for the purpose of reading Bob's book and having my eyes opened. Suddenly, everything important that was different between this church or the one across the street became intuitively obvious. Bob's book wasn't just a better theological argument, it was VASTLY better. It doesn't even do it justice to call it a "better argument". It was so much better that it's as if there was never any argument at all for anything else. Literally every other pastor that had ever taught me anything that happen to be right (like Charles Stanley and John McArthur), did so in spite of themeselves, as if by accident.
Since then, nothing has even come close to touching a single syllable of my doctrine. I've debated doctrine for decades. I've debated very intelligent people and really really stupid people. Probably one of the most intelligent people I ever debated here on TOL was a guy named Hilston and right now, I can't recall ever "debating" anyone dumber than Gary K (actually, there were some people on that Flat Earth thread that probably have Gary beat on that score) and there's been a whole spectrum of people inbetween. Dozens and dozens of various people making various arguments, some good, some idiotic but not once has any of them come anywhere close to refuting a single doctrine that I have held now for over thirty years.
And so, whether you're talking about the great thinkers I've been exposed to like Bob Enyart, Charles Stanley and John McArthur, or those who I consider to be on par with myself like Hilston, DFT Dave, RightDivider, et al., or the pea brained ignoramouses like Gary K. who do little more than pretend to know something about the bible, they all add their part to my life long persuit of the best argument for the purest truth. Some sharpen my steal by using their own and forcing me to think. Others do so by showing up to a sword fight with a tooth pick. The one strengthens my position by forcing me to establish my doctrine, the other strengthens me by showing the mindlessness that exists with those who reject my doctrine.
Either way, I am edified, strengthened and assured. Such is the power of sound reason applied to God's word.
Resting in Him,
Clete
The Silver Lining to Gary K's Existence on TOL.
I have discussed, studied, debated, thought through just about every issue imaginable that touches dispensational theology since I was a teenager. That's something like four decades and something between 75 - 80% of my life and more than half of that time I've been just as deep into Open Theism. When I started, I knew next to nothing at all but even as young as sixth grade I knew that doctrine, like any other truth, had to make sense and, if it didn't make sense, there was something wrong about it.
I grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma which was the literal buckle of what was called "the bible belt" at the time. There were (and still are) Christian churches of every flavor all over the place and mega-churches grew on trees! We had Oral and Richard Roberts, Carlton Peterson, Kenneth Hagin, Billy Joe Daugherty and no one can fail to remember Robert Tilton! Tilton actually wasn't from Tulsa but I remember thinking that he was from Tulsa for years. When I was a teen, my dad's work was going to move us to the Dallas, TX area and we were looking to buy a house in a suburb called Farmer's Branch. I forget what changed to make it not happen but we never did move down there. I just remember someone telling me at the time that Farmer's Branch is where Robert Tilton's church was and being surprised to find out he wasn't in Tulsa. At any rate, the point is that there were churches all over the place!
The church I attended was across the parking lot from another church that I never stepped foot in and both of those churches were straight across the street from another church that I never stepped foot in either and I lived closer to both Oral Roberts University and Rema Bible College than I did the church I attended and probably drove past at least a dozen churches on the way to and from my church and I remember wondering on a very regular basis what the differences were between what those churches taught and what our church taught. When I was still very young, I remember making the childishly naive comment to my mom, as we passed by Tulsa Bible Church, something along the lines of "We sure are lucky that we found the church that teaches the bible right!"
For as long as I can remember, I have been surrounded by Christians and Christian churches of every stripe. I grew up during the time when Christian television was really taking off and I remember being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I've briefly bought into just about everything under the Sun when it comes to Christian doctrine. At one time I believed the TULIP doctrines were true, I was on the World Wide Church of God's mailing list for a while, I've sent money to Trinity Broadcasting Network and had a silver glittery bumber sticker on my bible to prove it.
At some point, I got out of the doctrinal wind tunnel! I still had it firmly in mind that if a doctrine didn't make sense, there was something wrong and I wasn't wise enough to descern which preacher was right and which wasn't, except I did intuitively distrust the "send me your money for a blessing" preachers like Robert Tilton and Oral Roberts. What I decided to do was to simply adopt doctrines based on the strength of the arguments for that doctrine. For example, I distinctly remember accepting the Baptist doctrine of once saved always saved based on a series of sermons given by Charles Stanley and I was fully persuaded that charasmatic theology was false by a book called "Charismatic Choas" by John McArthor. I took it one doctrine at a time and whichever position on that doctrine had the strongest argument (that I had heard) that's what I went with. And I wasn't lazy about it either. I read and listened and paid close attention to anything most any preacher or author had to say about nearly any doctrinal subject. I came to understand what all sorts of different Christians believed about all kinds of crazy things. I also figured out that there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between a great many difference Christian churches and if all you did was listen to the Sunday sermons, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between Baptists, Presbeterians, Lutherans or the Church of Christ.
Eventually, I was exposed to Bob Enyart's, "The Plot", which was just in an unpublished manuscript form at the time. I read it in almost one sitting and it totally opened the flood gates! It was as if God Himself had been taking me down this road for the purpose of reading Bob's book and having my eyes opened. Suddenly, everything important that was different between this church or the one across the street became intuitively obvious. Bob's book wasn't just a better theological argument, it was VASTLY better. It doesn't even do it justice to call it a "better argument". It was so much better that it's as if there was never any argument at all for anything else. Literally every other pastor that had ever taught me anything that happen to be right (like Charles Stanley and John McArthur), did so in spite of themeselves, as if by accident.
Since then, nothing has even come close to touching a single syllable of my doctrine. I've debated doctrine for decades. I've debated very intelligent people and really really stupid people. Probably one of the most intelligent people I ever debated here on TOL was a guy named Hilston and right now, I can't recall ever "debating" anyone dumber than Gary K (actually, there were some people on that Flat Earth thread that probably have Gary beat on that score) and there's been a whole spectrum of people inbetween. Dozens and dozens of various people making various arguments, some good, some idiotic but not once has any of them come anywhere close to refuting a single doctrine that I have held now for over thirty years.
And so, whether you're talking about the great thinkers I've been exposed to like Bob Enyart, Charles Stanley and John McArthur, or those who I consider to be on par with myself like Hilston, DFT Dave, RightDivider, et al., or the pea brained ignoramouses like Gary K. who do little more than pretend to know something about the bible, they all add their part to my life long persuit of the best argument for the purest truth. Some sharpen my steal by using their own and forcing me to think. Others do so by showing up to a sword fight with a tooth pick. The one strengthens my position by forcing me to establish my doctrine, the other strengthens me by showing the mindlessness that exists with those who reject my doctrine.
Either way, I am edified, strengthened and assured. Such is the power of sound reason applied to God's word.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Ah, Robert Tilton ... I had almost forgotten about him.
He had some pretty sound theology, but the "science" side of his brain was lacking.
He was my favorite poster for a long time. I still like him a lot but I really laid into him hard on his lapse into insanity on the Flat Earth Theory nonsense. I hope he's repented of that silliness by now.
Less than 30 seconds into that video....Ah, Robert Tilton ... I had almost forgotten about him.
"See? I'm not talking about figuring it out with your brains. I'm talking about trusting your heart." - Robert Tilton (and by implication Gary K.)
Such a sentiment is the leper's bell of the forked tongued con artist!Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
Isaiah 26:3 You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You.
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The guy was just so over the top I still don't see how anybody was ever taken in by him. He was a human caricature.
What a clown that moron is! Demanding in one breath that Covid19 go away immediately and in the next breath demanding that a vaccine show up immediately.
Well, what the hell do you need a vaccine for if you just commanded the disease to go away?!
I really don't understand how it is even possible for people to be that deluded.
I'm reminded of I Cor. 3:15 whenever I see people like Copeland. It's hard to tell whether they're saved at all. On the one hand, their actions and attitudes seem so at odds with anything that approaches rationality, never mind the scripture or even just plain common sense and descent human behavior that its hard to believe that they're anything but just straight up con artists. On the other hand, they certainly give good lip service to Jesus and the fact that He is God and that He died for their sin and rose from the dead, and so long as they actually do believe that, then the Holy Spirit's seal will see them delivered safely to the Day of Redemption, but talk about "suffering loss"! I mean, holy cow!
I'd be interested to know how many people have rejected Christianity on the basis of Christian television. I bet it's a staggering number. I wonder how the Crouch family explains America's accelerated plunge into depravity in spite of their presence on every television in America and the countless times they've called for revival and cast the Devil out of America "in Jesus name".
Mr. Copeland is a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemason. His call for the vaccine is pretty clear indicator of what team he bats for. They've got quite a little club going.
I have no problem with the Free Masons. My Dad was a pretty high ranking Free Mason and so I can tell you that the conspiracy theories associated with them are bunk. The fact that they're Masons has as much to do with the generation they're mostly from than it has anything to do with anything else.
Would that it were true. My first encounter with Freemasonry was during my studies of history. I kept tripping over them so I figured I better look into the subject deeper if I wanted to have a fuller understanding of the history I was studying. I chanced upon a book called "Scarlet and the Beast Vol 1" and I wound up building a library from its' bibliography. I don't agree with the author's eschatology but his documentation of the history of Freemasonry is top notch and is rife with photos and illustrative material. The book is out of print and very expensive to acquire on line. However, if you can gut reading it online (I REALY prefer physical books) you can find a copy of it at the link below. If you have any interest in educating yourself about the subject this is a really good start.
https://archive.org/details/ScarletAndTheBeastJohnDaniel1995
I don't doubt that they were involved in some "conspiracies" 100+ years ago but I'm telling you, the overwhelmingly vast majority of Masons today are only conspiring to raise money to help sick kids. When my Dad was in the Akdar Shrine, all they did was things like sell tickets to their circus and they sell fireworks on the fourth of July and things like that. It was planning one fund raiser, doing that fund raiser and then planning the next fund raiser to donate money to Children's Hospitals.
They never recruit anyone to join their group - ever - (i.e. its a hard rule of theirs) and there is no pressure at all to remain a member once you've joined. That, by itself, would make hard-core nefarious conspiracies almost completely impossible.
Please understand, I am not trying to denigrate your father. I was in possession of my Great Great Grandfathers' Masonic walking papers. I suppose most of us have some family member in the lodge somewhere down the line. What I am trying to suggest is that, as an organization that is world wide, their actions and intent are somewhat at variance with the persona that they offer the public. I have an unfortunately extensive personal experience on that subject. I offered you a link to a good start in researching that matter if you are so inclined. If not, I understand. It's like innocently pulling on a loose thread on a girl's sweater ... pull long enough and you wind up seeing things you didn't initially intend to.
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Of course. I wouldn't have ever thought otherwise.
You aren't suggesting that these T.V. preachers, who are almost universally seen as fools and con artists, are secret agents of the greater world-wide Masonic organization working to subvert something (God knows what) by bilking old women out of their life's saving, are you? For what possible purpose?
What other organization has ever done anything like covering up nefariously evil activities that they're really interested in by slyly duping the public by spending billions and billions and billions of dollars on hospitals for children? Isn't it more likely that if there were really this dark-hearted shadow government that the veil that is their public persona would be somewhat thinner than that?
The Scientologist have a public persona that is quite different than what they really are but even a little bit of looking pierces through to the truth. The Clinton Organization claimed to be a "charitable organization" but when you went digging, you found no charity - like actually none at all. The point being that organizations can't really pull off being both honorable and nefarious, moral and immoral, straight-forward and conniving, charitable with the right hand and thieves with the left. It just doesn't work.
One obvious mission they all have is to sew leaven into the bread that is the Word of God. Another purpose is to influence those that would follow them into accepting certain ideas and agendas. You yourself noted how incongruous it was for Mr. Copeland to supplicate the Lord to rebuke Covid and then call for a vaccine in the next breath ... just in case God wasn't able to handle the task or he didn't have God' ear, I don't know which. A vaccine that has killed millions to date and, as researchers are now discovering, was the inevitable outcome of the way it was designed. Anyone allowed access to MSM was singing the same song of encouragement as it concerns this vaccine. If you didn't sing the song you didn't get access and that includes all those 33rd degree Freemason preachers with TV access.
While we're on the subject, I should point out to the uninitiated that, while most (but not all) men may apply for membership into the lodge this is not the case as it concerns the 33rd degree of Scottish Rite Freemasonry. To achieve the 33rd degree you must get the tap on the shoulder. It's a very exclusive club. Some of what you have said indicates you are talking at one or more points about "Shriners". Entrance into this organization requires that you be either a Scottish rite Freemason or a York Rite Freemason. Their bizarre initiation aside, it is yet another incongruous fact that though much good is done in the name of infirmed children it is a fact that the infirmed are not allowed to join the lodge.
I agree, we were told that no man may serve two masters. Albert Pike was the man served by Scottish Rite Freemasonry with the task of codifying its newly created 33 degrees and he did so in a tome entitle "Morals and Dogma". Concerning Lucifer he had this to say: “LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, for traditions are full of sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!”
Morals and Dogma : Albert Pike : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike, The Council ( 1871)
archive.org
Make of that what you will.
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As an historic aside, Albert Pike was commissioned as an officer in the Confederate army and using his gift as a polyglot enlisted an Indian tribe in Arkansas to join the cause of the South. In the Battle of Pea Ridge his charges were so heinous in the treatment of Northern soldiers in their defeat that he was stripped of his commission. After the war He was granted a pardon and a statue was erected of his likeness in Washington D.C.. He was the only southern officer to be so honored. I found it ironic that after all this time his statue was torn down by the youth involved in eradicating our past by tearing down statues a little while back. I seriously doubt they had a clue who he was or his significance in American and Masonic history.
Oh, on that side note ......
I have heard for years (but never looked up documentation) that William Tecumseh Sherman, the Union officer that instigated the brutal Sherman's march through Atlanta, said that the only Confederate officer that knew exactly what it took to win a war was Nathan Bedford Forest.
Like Pike that you mention above, the Confederates thought of Nathan Bedford Forrest as too brutal and held him back from doing what he thought needed to be done.
Sherman said that if they had not held him back the war might have turned out differently.
Sherman had said that honor and chivalry do not win wars, brutality does.
"All is fair in love and war."
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Wow. Now there's anti-Catholic, and then there's the Freemasons lol. I had no idea, about Copeland. Most if not all public intellectual Protestant pastors are anti-Catholic, so that part of his shtick wouldn't have caught my attention with Copeland, but Freemasons have a history of warring against Catholicism. That's part of why the attestation of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima is so compelling, because even Freemasons admitted it really happened.
Yeah that's interesting. I know at our country's founding the Freemasons were involved, Deists I think preferred the lodge to the church.