The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?

Clete

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An all-knowing mankind is a pagan concept. Howabout you prove it an unjewish concept first; and then prove it Aristotelian only. I don't think you can do it.
All knowing mankind? Who said anything about that?

And the idea of omniscience has NO historical record prior to the writings of Plato. It does not exist in Jewish literature at all. If it did, every Calvinist in the world would have it memorized. Instead, they never bring it up and do things like directly quote Aristotle's own arguments straight out of Plato's writings.

So, that's what the word means!

You are confusing the Bible with the Mohammed's Koran.
No, I'm not. Augustine refused to become a Christian for years in opposition to his mother's pleading precisely because the bible depicts a God who can do things like change His mind and learn things He didn't already know.

Here, I'll give you one perfectly clear example...

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Only when the New Testament is garbled into English to make it look so.
Saying it doesn't make is so!

The English bible reads conceptually almost exactly the same as the original language. If you want to suggest otherwise, I suggest you attempt to prove it.

Semantic irrelevance here.
It wasn't irrelevant. You made an as hominem argument. I was pointing that a similar response to my post was a strong possibility.

It is an intellectual feat that only succeeds in making the fictional Allah look dumb. I understand your argument to be weak and self deceptive.
And yet you offer exactly NOTHING in refutation of it.

Clete
 

Omniskeptical

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All knowing mankind? Who said anything about that?

And the idea of omniscience has NO historical record prior to the writings of Plato. It does not exist in Jewish literature at all. If it did, every Calvinist in the world would have it memorized. Instead, they never bring it up and do things like directly quote Aristotle's own arguments straight out of Plato's writings.


So, that's what the word means!


No, I'm not. Augustine refused to become a Christian for years in opposition to his mother's pleading precisely because the bible depicts a God who can do things like change His mind and learn things He didn't already know.

Here, I'll give you one perfectly clear example...

Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
Wow, that's garbled, and doesn't prove your point. εἰ δὲ μή ἵνα γνῶ and if not I may [feel it].
Saying it doesn't make is so!
But it is so.
The English bible reads conceptually almost exactly the same as the original language. If you want to suggest otherwise, I suggest you attempt to prove it.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Greek article is a indefinite article not a definite article despite what the books say.
It wasn't irrelevant. You made an as hominem argument. I was pointing that a similar response to my post was a strong possibility.
Whatever
And yet you offer exactly NOTHING in refutation of it.
Why do you want God to be stupid?
 
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Clete

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Wow, that's garbled, and doesn't prove your point.
"Prove" it, no it doesn't "prove" it but it certainly does make a sound argument. All you'd have to do to refute it is show me one single counter example. Of all the people in the world who have an interest in knowing about and deceminating examples of Jewish literature describing God it terms synonymous with Aristotelian omniscience, it would be the Calvinists and following closely behind them would be the Catholics. So show me where any Calvinist or Catholic author has cited an example of such Jewish literature. I can show you all day long examples where Calvinist use the EXACT same arguments as Plato. In fact, Plato plays such a large part in Christian doctrine that "Classical Christianity" is a real thing.

Not only that but the historical lineage of Calvinist distinctives isn't even in dispute. Calvin gets his name plastered to the doctrine merely because he was the one who wrote these things down after the reformation got started but he didn't invent them. Luther, the guy who was chiefly responsible for the Reformation was an Augustinian monk and the doctrines he rejected had nothing at all to do with Augustinian doctrines. On the contrary, his Augustinian doctrines survived very much intact. And all one has to do to PROVE that Augustine got many of his ideas about God's attributes from the Classics is to read Augustine's own words. Thus, there is a straight historical line that connects all the dots from Aristotle to Plato to Augustine, to Luther, to Calvin, to you! If you believe that God is immutable, in the classical sense, then you must also believe that God is omniscient in the classical sense as well because the later is a logical consequence of the former.

εἰ δὲ μή ἵνα γνῶ and if not I may [feel it].
And that helps your case, how?

Are you suggesting that God is NOT impassible? That He can't have a new thought in His head because He's omniscient but that somehow He can have a feeling now that He didn't have before?

What would "that I may feel it" even mean anyway? Would that mean that God would gain an intuition about it? Might that intuition be wrong? No? Then how would such infallible intuition not be identical knowledge?

Lastly, to prove that your translation is ridiculous, all one need do is look up the verse in ANY translation you want! I checked every translation available on www.biblegateway.com and nearly all of them translate it "I will know" but there are some exceptions. The following is not an exhaustive list of the variations but I included a sufficient number to demonstrate that I checked them all.

Christian Standard Bible: "I will find out."​
Common English Bible: "I want to find out."​
Contemporary English Version: "I want to know about it."​
Good News Translation: "I must go down to find out whether or not the accusations which I have heard are true.”​
Holman Christian Standard Bible: " I will find out.”​
New American Bible (Revised Edition): "I mean to find out."​
New Catholic Bible: "I want to know this!”​
Orthodox Jewish Bible: " I will have da’as." - ("da'as" means "knowledge, rationality, science")​
Young's Literal Translation: "and if not -- I know"​
The following is an exhaustive list of all the translations that used the word "feel" or anything similar to, "I will feel it"...

Oh, wait! There weren't any!

But it is so.
No it isn't and I just got through proving it.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The Greek article is a indefinite article not a definite article despite what the books say.
What I said was exactly the truth and you know it.

First of all Genesis was NOT written in Greek, it written in Hebrew.
Secondly, is it your theory then, that every Hebrew scholar that has ever participated in a major translation of the bible into English, (most all of which were Calvinists, by the way), all were in on a conspiracy to make God look like He was investigating an accusation? What would be the motive?

Isn't it more likely that you don't have any idea what you're talking about?

🤣

Why do you want God to be stupid?
Who said anything about God being stupid? This is an interesting insight into the real root of your objection, however!

Why do you equate God's ability to find out what He wants to know with being stupid?

Clete
 

JudgeRightly

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Let me see.

We wish you would, but you keep covering your eyes.

You want a God who is less than omniscient and just at the same time.

1) Why do you think that God cannot be just if He is not omniscient?

2) You seem to want to think that you are necessary for God to be God. And by that, I mean that "omniscience" leads to the idea that YOU, Yes, YOU, Omniskeptical, have existed in God's mind somewhere for all of eternity past as part of God's exhaustive knowledge of literally everything and everyone, which makes you a necessary being. Let me tell you right now, you are not a necessary being. God is the only Necessary Being.

It makes me laugh.

Your posts sadden me.
 

Omniskeptical

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We wish you would, but you keep covering your eyes.
Courtesy laugh
1) Why do you think that God cannot be just if He is not omniscient?
I think of it in terms of the role of God. He has to do and know everything so as to be reasonable.
2) You seem to want to think that you are necessary for God to be God. And by that, I mean that "omniscience" leads to the idea that YOU, Yes, YOU, Omniskeptical, have existed in God's mind somewhere for all of eternity past as part of God's exhaustive knowledge of literally everything and everyone, which makes you a necessary being. Let me tell you right now, you are not a necessary being. God is the only Necessary Being.
I did not exist in God's mind, but he did know everyone before they were born. God is just in that he allowed you to exist.
Your posts sadden me.
Do I sense you being smug here?
 

JudgeRightly

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I think of it in terms of the role of God. He has to do and know everything so as to be reasonable.

Why?

I did not exist in God's mind, but he did know everyone before they were born. God is just in that he allowed you to exist.

Then God wasn't omniscient prior to knowing about you.

Again, "omniscient" = all knowing, having all knowledge.

If He didn't have knowledge of you at some point, then he was not omniscient.
 

Clete

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Let me see. You want a God who is less than omniscient and just at the same time. It makes me laugh.
I do not care what makes you laugh!

I totally could NOT care less what makes you laugh!

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING OF ANY SUBSTANCE TO CONTRIBUTE?

Do you have even the slightest ability to make any sort of rational argument?

NO! Of course you don't. You're a laughing idiot.
 

JudgeRightly

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AGAIN: omniscient means all knowing.

God NOT knowing about YOU at some point means he literally cannot be omniscient, because he didn't know about you.

Therefore either God wasn't omniscient before He knew about you, or He always knew about you, making you NECESSARY to His existence (which is blasphemy, by the way), or "omniscient" is not an attribute of God, at least not in the pagan greek definition of the word.


Knowing about you, omni, is part of "all things."

Therefore, if God did no know about you, as you agreed to above, then He could not be omniscient.

you haven't established that at all

Just did. You're saying two contradictory things. That makes you wrong.
 

Omniskeptical

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Just did. You're saying two contradictory things. That makes you wrong.
When you say things like this, I wonder if you are an atheist, or just like to give them an opening to say God is stupid. You basicly put limitations on God which make him out to either vindictive or feeble minded or both.
 

JudgeRightly

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He knew about me before I even happened at birth.

Did He know about you for eternity past? If so, that makes you, who believe God cannot be God without being omniscient, a necessary being. If not, then you are contradicting yourself when you say God is omniscient but yet didn't know about you.

When you say things like this, I wonder if you are an atheist,

Says the one who is clearly not a Christian.

or just like to give them an opening to say God is stupid. You basically put limitations on God which make him out to either vindictive or feeble minded or both.

Saying it doesn't make it so, and you won't even nake the argument.

Think I'm wrong?

Then by all means, explain how what I said "gives atheists an opening to say that God is stupid" and "puts limitations on God which make Him out to be vindictive and/or feebleminded".

You won't, because you can't, because what I said doesn't do either of those things.
 

Omniskeptical

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Did He know about you for eternity past?
There is no such thing a infinite past time. God created time. imagine that.
Says the one who is clearly not a Christian.
So accuses the atheist?
Saying it doesn't make it so, and you won't even nake the argument.
Lame
Think I'm wrong?
You weren't specific enough here. Too bad.
Then by all means, explain how what I said "gives atheists an opening to say that God is stupid" and "puts limitations on God which make Him out to be vindictive and/or feebleminded".
If God is not omniscient, it can be argued he can be deceived, regardless of his supposed superiority. Also, It could be argued that as a trinity he doesn't exist or is not powerful enough.
You won't, because you can't, because what I said doesn't do either of those things.
 

Arial

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God NOT knowing about YOU at some point means he literally cannot be omniscient, because he didn't know about you.
Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
On he omniscience of God:
1 John 3:20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Psalm 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold O Lord, you know it all.
Matt 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Psalm 147:4 He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them.
Hebrews 4:14 ANd there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do,
Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.
 

Clete

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If God is not omniscient, it can be argued he can be deceived, regardless of his supposed superiority. Also, It could be argued that as a trinity he doesn't exist or is not powerful enough.
If such an argument can be made then do so.

Make the argument, Omniskeptical!

Fair warning: You might need to take the day off from work because it will require more than a single sentence response!
 
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