Should governments execute murderers?

[death2impiety]

"Probably"? Do any of you would be stone throwers have the first frigging clue about an actual stoning and what it's like?

I'd guess, it's a terrifying deterrent & brutal.

Why do you all focus on the humanity of the penalty for the crime so much.

Can anyone tell me what the purpose of having these penalties in place is?:

Is it so we can get all wide eyed and excited when a murder happens because know we'll get to enjoy carrying out the deliciously fun execution?

Or, is it so that we can live in a society where my sisters are safe from a would-be rapist who wouldn't dare touch them for fear of the consequences?

Any rational thoughts? ANY?

 

[Granite]

Acts 7:
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Interesting that the only example you have is when a Christian is martyred, which ought to tell you something.

I suggest you find video footage of an actual stoning and then look at yourself in the mirror. I'm dead serious.

 

[Granite]

I'd guess, it's a terrifying deterrent & brutal.

Why do you all focus on the humanity of the penalty for the crime so much.

Can anyone tell me what the purpose of having these penalties in place is?:

Is it so we can get all wide eyed and excited when a murder happens because know we'll get to enjoy carrying out the deliciously fun execution?

Or, is it so that we can live in a society where my sisters are safe from a would-be rapist who wouldn't dare touch them for fear of the consequences?

Any rational thoughts? ANY?

So far you've ignored the lion's share of post 46. Guess I'll resign myself to that. (You also abandon PM exchanges when the tough get going, so whatcha gonna do.)

Without our humanity, what exactly are we? And how can a supposed Christian ask a question like that?

 

[death2impiety]

So far you've ignored the lion's share of post 46. Guess I'll resign myself to that. (You also abandon PM exchanges when the tough get going, so whatcha gonna do.)

Without our humanity, what exactly are we? And how can a supposed Christian ask a question like that?

I replied directly to your post. if you have another direct question, ask away.

I didn't abandon our PMs I have my response in the works. As I told you proverbs 29:20

 

[JoyfulRook]

Without our humanity, what exactly are we? And how can a supposed Christian ask a question like that?

Where was humanity when the murderer raped and murdered his victim. Why should should we give him a merciful death when he didn't allow that of his victim? Why don't you focus on the inhumanity of the murder?

 

[Servo]

Interesting that the only example you have is when a Christian is martyred, which ought to tell you something.

I suggest you find video footage of an actual stoning and then look at yourself in the mirror. I'm dead serious.

Straw man.
The POINT is, is that it is quick.

Leviticus 24:23
Then Moses spoke to the children of Israel; and they took outside the camp him who had cursed, and stoned him with stones. So the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 15:36
So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Joshua 7:25
And Joshua said, “Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day.” So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.

1 Kings 12:18
Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was in charge of the revenue; but all Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem.

1 Kings 21:13
And two men, scoundrels, came in and sat before him; and the scoundrels witnessed against him, against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, “Naboth has blasphemed God and the king!” Then they took him outside the city and stoned him with stones, so that he died.

2 Chronicles 10:18
Then King Rehoboam sent Hadoram, who was in charge of revenue; but the children of Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 24:21
So they conspired against him, and at the command of the king they stoned him with stones in the court of the house of the LORD.

Matthew 21:35
And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

 

[Granite]

I replied directly to your post. if you have another direct question, ask away.

I didn't abandon our PMs I have my response in the works. As I told you proverbs 29:20

No, you didn't. You replied selectively to what you chose to see and ignored the rest. That's a cheap, lazy trick and I've seen a lot of that on TOL. You're capable of more (whether or not you take time is something else). I'd appreciate it if you went back and addressed the other questions I had.

 

[death2impiety]

So far you've ignored the lion's share of post 46. Guess I'll resign myself to that. (You also abandon PM exchanges when the tough get going, so whatcha gonna do.)

Without our humanity, what exactly are we? And how can a supposed Christian ask a question like that?

The humanity of the punishment Granite. Do you recall when I said:

The death penalty must be considered humane in one way only: to the society that has suffered the acts of the perpetrator who is deserving of capital punishment. That's it

Do you agree with this or no? Why or why not?

Do you understand why mercy and humanity cannot be shown to both the criminal and the society in tandum?

 

[Granite]

Straw man.
The POINT is, is that it is quick.

Leviticus 24:23
Then Moses spoke to the children of Israel; and they took outside the camp him who had cursed, and stoned him with stones. So the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 15:36
So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Joshua 7:25
And Joshua said, “Why have you troubled us? The LORD will trouble you this day.” So all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire after they had stoned them with stones.

1 Kings 12:18
Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was in charge of the revenue; but all Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem.

1 Kings 21:13
And two men, scoundrels, came in and sat before him; and the scoundrels witnessed against him, against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, “Naboth has blasphemed God and the king!” Then they took him outside the city and stoned him with stones, so that he died.

2 Chronicles 10:18
Then King Rehoboam sent Hadoram, who was in charge of revenue; but the children of Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 24:21
So they conspired against him, and at the command of the king they stoned him with stones in the court of the house of the LORD.

Matthew 21:35
And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.
Matthew 21:34-36 (in Context) Matthew 21 (Whole Chapter)

:rotfl:

Oh, I see. Because something is described briefly it means it didn't take too long.

:rotfl:

Excuse me, I've recovered from my laughter.

How long do you think a Roman scourging took?

How long do you think it took to physically crucify someone?

How much time does scripture devote to these events?

Last but not least...and this depends on the couple in question:

How long does the physical act of love take?

This thinking is absurd and laughable in the extreme. "He knew her." Wow. Must've been quick. "They scourged him." Oh, well. Must've been a five-minute lashing. "Jesus wept." Must've been a sniffle.

I mean come on, man.

And now go watch a video of someone being stoned to death, if you're not a complete paper tiger.

 

[Granite]

The humanity of the punishment Granite. Do you recall when I said:



Do you agree with this or no? Why or why not?

Do you understand why mercy and humanity cannot be shown to both the criminal and the society in tandum?

If you do not show mercy you are a brutal totalitarian regime no better than your humanistic counterparts. Mercy is integral to justice. Without mercy we have tyranny. Take a look at who stones people today. Take a look at governments past and present who didn't show mercy to criminals and society. Think about what you want to become and who and what you emulate. Monsters and tyrants are the ones on your side. Certainly not the good guys.

 

[Balder]

What should be done to adulterers?

If your dad, in a brief midlife crisis, had a several-month affair with his married secretary and then stopped, and it came out later that year that he had done that, would you turn him in for his just dues? What would those just dues be?

 

[Real Sorceror]

Where was humanity when the murderer raped and murdered his victim. Why should should we give him a merciful death when he didn't allow that of his victim? Why don't you focus on the inhumanity of the murder?

Becuase, unlike him, we have mercy. If we butcher him the way he did everyone else, then how are we any more civilized or human than he is?

 

[death2impiety]

I hope you see that I respect you and the importance of this discussion enough to answer all your questions:

Stoning is not swift, although the brutality it's got. Why do you favor a "swift" execution, anyway?

Stoning is relatively swift. Swift enough to be recommended by the God who calls for a swift execution.

If your intent is to scare the daylights out of your victim why not make it brutal and slow?

This has to be reworded to be deserving of response:

If your intent is to scare the daylights out of would be criminals why not make it brutal and slow? (I hope we can agree that the convicted is not the "victim" here.)

or I'd go farther to make it more personal to better illustrate my point:

If your intent is to make a would be rapist shudder at the thought of laying one finger on your sister why not make it brutal and slow?

To either of these I will say that God calls for swift execution. I'm not making this up as I see fit. When I was a godless pagan I was against the death penalty entirely.

Beheading is swift and brutal. Do you favor beheading? A shotgun at point blank range is swift and brutal. You favor that? Why do you think "swiftness" is so important?

Beheading is acceptable. I'd say that there could be a myriad of different methods (albeit ALL swift and brutal) and that the judge would rule which method is to be used.

Swiftness = Biblical

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Eccl. 8:11

Wouldn't a slow, agonizing, hideous execution be an even BIGGER deterrent? Yes or no.

Yes. However, it may bring along with it greater resentment in the people toward the government.

And if you don't want executions to be kind, well, you know where that leads us...

By that rationale, screw stoning! Let's burn people alive, all over again. Let's put them on the wheel. Hell, man, let's just start crucifying people all over again. Stoning? For chumps. Screw stoning! Crucify him. Brutal, long, agonizing. Now there's a heck of a deterrent. We'll flog you, then nail you to a piece of wood. Or break your bones and spool you on a wheel. Or cut you to death like the Chinese and Japanese used to do.

It isn't up to me to decide what methods are best. I cited stoning because it's Biblical. Brutal, long and agonizing isn't what God calls for.

Questions for the class that I'd appreciate a straight answer to:

You ever seen footage of a stoning?

No.

Who still stones people?

No idea.

Why should execution be "swift"?

Biblical.

Why should execution be "brutal"?

[/QUOTE]

Biblical, deterrent.

 

[Real Sorceror]

What should be done to adulterers?

If your dad, in a brief midlife crisis, had a several-month affair with his married secretary and then stopped, and it came out later that year that he had done that, would you turn him in for his just dues? What would those just dues be?

I wouldnt kill a guy for that. I dont even think I'd punish him in any criminal fashion. Thats really between the people involved. If they can work it, cool. If they feel they need a divorce, thats thier decision.

 

[death2impiety]

If you do not show mercy you are a brutal totalitarian regime no better than your humanistic counterparts. Mercy is integral to justice. Without mercy we have tyranny. Take a look at who stones people today. Take a look at governments past and present who didn't show mercy to criminals and society. Think about what you want to become and who and what you emulate. Monsters and tyrants are the ones on your side. Certainly not the good guys.

:doh:

Granite...:sigh:

Is the death penalty carried out out of mercy for the society or for the perp?

Direct answer please, and make it short if at all possible, something like:

For the society d2i.

 

[Granite]

I hope you see that I respect you and the importance of this discussion enough to answer all your questions:



Stoning is relatively swift. Swift enough to be recommended by the God who calls for a swift execution.



This has to be reworded to be deserving of response:

If your intent is to scare the daylights out of would be criminals why not make it brutal and slow? (I hope we can agree that the convicted is not the "victim" here.)

or I'd go farther to make it more personal to better illustrate my point:

If your intent is to make a would be rapist shudder at the thought of laying one finger on your sister why not make it brutal and slow?

To either of these I will say that God calls for swift execution. I'm not making this up as I see fit. When I was a godless pagan I was against the death penalty entirely.



Beheading is acceptable. I'd say that there could be a myriad of different methods (albeit ALL swift and brutal) and that the judge would rule which method is to be used.

Swiftness = Biblical




Yes. However, it may bring along with it greater resentment in the people toward the government.



It isn't up to me to decide what methods are best. I cited stoning because it's Biblical. Brutal, long and agonizing isn't what God calls for.



No.



No idea.



Biblical.

Biblical, deterrent.[/QUOTE]

"Relative" to what? As you've never actually taken time to see what a stoning involves I don't know what you're comparing it to. Watch footage of a stoning. It's not hard to find. It's barbaric, sadistic, and anything but quick. Read accounts of how they go down. I'm serious here. Do yourself a favor.

So your only reason for not advocating a slow execution...is because people might resent their government. That's it. Not that it's morally reprehensible, sick, grotesque, twisted, and hideous; not that it's sadistic. No. Your true priority comes through: we don't want anybody resenting the government. Excuse me while I pick up my jaw.

Lemme fill you in and hope you get your own clue. Muslims are the ones stoning people these days. Muslims are the folk who think barbarism, and mutilation, and public gang bludgeonings, are a good idea. Strange bedfellows indeed. Bad enough you and others haven't made the slightest approximation of an informed decision on stoning other than your ignorant blatting about doing "what God says to do." (Independent thinking is NOT encouraged when we're talking about beating people to death with rocks; can't imagine why.) No, interestingly enough you're saying that the Muslims got it right this time. How cute.

What about Deuteronomy 25:11-12?

 

[death2impiety]

I wouldnt kill a guy for that. I dont even think I'd punish him in any criminal fashion. Thats really between the people involved. If they can work it, cool. If they feel they need a divorce, thats thier decision.

Adultery wouldn't be occuring in epidemic proportions if the penalty was death.

 

[avatar382]

The whole "make it as brutal as possible so others will be deterred" is retarded. When people commit crimes, they generally don't plan on being caught. Is there any data that shows that the murder rate is lower in Texas than in a state that doesn't execute so many?

Oh, and lethal injection can take up to an hour. Yeah, it sounds like they get off easy, but the real punishment is being prepared for a procedure that is designed to kill you. You know you're going to die.

 

[Granite]

:doh:

Granite...:sigh:

Is the death penalty carried out out of mercy for the society or for the perp?

Direct answer please, and make it short if at all possible, something like:

It should be done for both.

 

[Real Sorceror]

Adultery wouldn't be occuring in epidemic proportions if the penalty was death.

And who siad adultery was an offense worthy of death?