Saved by Grace or/and by Works

[csuguy]

I see nothing saying that repentance is works. If it were: grace would be from works. It isn't.

First off, those verses demonstrate that works are required from us - namely, that we persevere until the end. Only by persevering will one be given that which God has promised. If you don't persevere - you disqualify yourself. So your actions/works are very much a factor in salvation.

Furthermore, repentance is something you choose to do - of course it is a work. Forgiveness as well - for if you don't forgive then you won't be forgiven. Little needs to be said about this - it's obvious.

 

[Idolater]

Okay, I'll give you a brief run down of what we believe so this will make more sense. We believe when we die we go to the spirit world. In the spirit world there is spirit prison and spirit paradise. That's where we believe we wait out time after we die until judgement When judgement happens we believe Christ will send us to one of three kingdoms of glory: Celestrial, terrestrial, and celestial. Basically, Celestrial is where God lives. He occasionally visits the terrestrial kingdom, but will only visit the telestial kingdom once, where people he considers wicked reside. People will have a chance before judgement to learn about the Gospel, but how that will affect us is uncertain for a very fair reason. So after saying all that, I believe many non-Mormon's will probably go to the terrestrial kingdom. There are a lot of good people on this Earth so those who didn't know of him, but still were good, and those who were just not bad will probably end up there. Of course, I'm not the judge, Christ is, but the terrestrial kingdom is like the middle ground. I wouldn't think it'd be the worst place to end up. We believe that the lake of fire talked about will happen on Earth and not in the spirit world, so we will all be able to receive perfect bodies after death. There is a lot of stuff I could say after what I've been taught, but I don't feel like this is the place I should share it. If your curious about anything else, you can go to thechurchofjesuschrist.org and get a more reliable answer.

Hmm. OK, tyvm.

And all of this comes from the D&C and the Book of Mormon?

 

[clefty]

First off, those verses demonstrate that works are required from us - namely, that we persevere until the end. Only by persevering will one be given that which God has promised. If you don't persevere - you disqualify yourself. So your actions/works are very much a factor in salvation.

Furthermore, repentance is something you choose to do - of course it is a work. Forgiveness as well - for if you don't forgive then you won't be forgiven. Little needs to be said about this - it's obvious.

“My yoke is easy my burden is light”

 

[csuguy]

“My yoke is easy my burden is light”

John 15:20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

 

[Right Divider]

I think that Judas changed his mind when he got 30 pieces of silver and murdered himself; but he didn't have repentance. He betrayed Jesus once. Peter betrayed Him three times. He found repentance. I thank God for His Gift. My salvation had nothing to do with what I'm able to do. God's Grace granted me the good gift of repentance.

False equivocation.

 

[Aimiel]

First off, those verses demonstrate that works are required from us - namely, that we persevere until the end. Only by persevering will one be given that which God has promised. If you don't persevere - you disqualify yourself. So your actions/works are very much a factor in salvation.

Furthermore, repentance is something you choose to do - of course it is a work. Forgiveness as well - for if you don't forgive then you won't be forgiven. Little needs to be said about this - it's obvious.

I agree: it is obvious that we have repentance and even forgiveness as good gifts from God. I know I've been able to forgive and repent things that on my own I could NEVER do. There's nothing good in me (my flesh). I thank God for the change in me that His Spirit provides.

 

[Aimiel]

False equivocation.

So, you believe he planned all along to murder himself? I don't. I believe that he saw his sin and did not get repentance because he had committed the un-pardonable sin.

 

[csuguy]

I agree: it is obvious that we have repentance and even forgiveness as good gifts from God. I know I've been able to forgive and repent things that on my own I could NEVER do. There's nothing good in me (my flesh). I thank God for the change in me that His Spirit provides.

Forgiveness and repentance are things that we, ourselves, elect to do of our own freewill. If these things were simply a matter of God forcing the matter - then he would do the same for all people, showing no favoritism.

 

[Aimiel]

Forgiveness and repentance are things that we, ourselves, elect to do of our own freewill. If these things were simply a matter of God forcing the matter - then he would do the same for all people, showing no favoritism.

God NEVER forces anyone to do anything. He gives us the ability to do things which we could never do on our own. He gives a new heart to those who seek Him with all of their heart. He alone can give us good gifts such as this.

 

[csuguy]

God NEVER forces anyone to do anything. He gives us the ability to do things which we could never do on our own. He gives a new heart to those who seek Him with all of their heart. He alone can give us good gifts such as this.

Repentance and forgiveness are within the capacity of all people. Doing the right thing, even fulfilling the Law has always been in our power.

Deutoronomy 30:11-16 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.​

Again, there is no favoritism with God such that he would only equip a select few with the ability to be saved.

 

[Aimiel]

No one shall have ANYTHING to boast about. If you repent, if you have faith or even if you love someone: it is God that gives you that ability. There really is NONE good.

The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[csuguy]

No one shall have ANYTHING to boast about.

2 Corinthians 10:17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

If you repent, if you have faith or even if you love someone: it is God that gives you that ability. There really is NONE good.

The ability to know good from evil and to act accordingly, even to love, these are common among all men. You say that God has given man these abilities - that is good and I agree. Unless what you mean is that he has only given a select few the capacity for love and repentance - in which case you are wrong. For then you are suggesting that God has shown this few favoritism - and favoritism is a sin.

The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Hyperbole. Very common in scripture - and attempting to take it as purely literal is foolish and contradictory to the scriptures. There are numerous examples of people doing good - whether NT or OT.

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, there are examples of people doing good. Not a single one of them EVER made it into Heaven upon their works. Every soul in Heaven is there by God's Grace, alone. It is His Gift. No one can boast of works. If we repent, it's God's Gift to us. If we have faith, it's His Faith in us. If we have love: it's Him in us. He is love. We are merely witnesses. We partake of His Love. He is the Love. He is the Way we are saved. He is the Truth and He is the Life. He is our Saviour, not us. We are rewarded by His Grace, not by anything we've done. Not by anything we've believed. He gives us faith. He gives us breath. He gives us everything. We are nothing without Him.

 

[Right Divider]

So, you believe he planned all along to murder himself? I don't. I believe that he saw his sin and did not get repentance because he had committed the un-pardonable sin.

Lots of wild speculation on your part.

 

[Aimiel]

Lots of wild speculation on your part.

Not much of an argument on yours. Jesus called Judas: "The Son of Perdition." I don't see that calling his sin, un-pardonable, is speculation.

 

[csuguy]

Yes, there are examples of people doing good. Not a single one of them EVER made it into Heaven upon their works. Every soul in Heaven is there by God's Grace, alone. It is His Gift. No one can boast of works. If we repent, it's God's Gift to us. If we have faith, it's His Faith in us. If we have love: it's Him in us. He is love. We are merely witnesses. We partake of His Love. He is the Love. He is the Way we are saved. He is the Truth and He is the Life. He is our Saviour, not us. We are rewarded by His Grace, not by anything we've done. Not by anything we've believed. He gives us faith. He gives us breath. He gives us everything. We are nothing without Him.

Salvation is made possible through Christ - and his sacrifice, which is a gift. Forgiveness isn't earned - and we are all sinners. So yes - we can't boast of this. But this is only part of the picture - else everyone would be saved unconditionally. Good works are required of us - and these are the basis upon which we are judged. These are what we choose to do of our own volition, or not. And everyone is born capable of doing good works - in fact, that is given as a reason for our creation:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

You want to hold onto this idea that God has specially selected you and others for salvation - vs recognizing that there is no favoritism with God, that favoritism is a sin.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.​

 

[Right Divider]

Not much of an argument on yours. Jesus called Judas: "The Son of Perdition." I don't see that calling his sin, un-pardonable, is speculation.

Once again, that is pure speculation on your part. There is no place in scripture that called Judas' sin unpardonable.

 

[Right Divider]

Salvation is made possible through Christ - and his sacrifice, which is a gift. Forgiveness isn't earned - and we are all sinners. So yes - we can't boast of this. But this is only part of the picture - else everyone would be saved unconditionally. Good works are required of us - and these are the basis upon which we are judged. These are what we choose to do of our own volition, or not. And everyone is born capable of doing good works - in fact, that is given as a reason for our creation:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

You want to hold onto this idea that God has specially selected you and others for salvation - vs recognizing that there is no favoritism with God, that favoritism is a sin.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.​

What a mess.

 

[MennoSota]

2 Corinthians 10:17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”



The ability to know good from evil and to act accordingly, even to love, these are common among all men. You say that God has given man these abilities - that is good and I agree. Unless what you mean is that he has only given a select few the capacity for love and repentance - in which case you are wrong. For then you are suggesting that God has shown this few favoritism - and favoritism is a sin.



Hyperbole. Very common in scripture - and attempting to take it as purely literal is foolish and contradictory to the scriptures. There are numerous examples of people doing good - whether NT or OT.

Is it a sin for the Sovereign leader to pardon some criminals but not all? Is that favoritism?
You seem to view yourself differently, regarding your sin, than God views you.
Your sins are as scarlet. Should God choose to be just, you will die in your sins and receive God's full wrath. Should God choose to place your sin upon Jesus as your propitiation, you will be pardoned and God's sacrifice will be the substitution that justly frees you from God's wrath.
Know this: You stand before the Creator and you are wholly at His mercy. Pray He extends you His grace. He is not obligated to do so.

 

[Aimiel]

Once again, that is pure speculation on your part. There is no place in scripture that called Judas' sin unpardonable.

I don't see that any pardon is available to the Son of Perdition, since he was the only one given into Christ's Hand that He 'lost' due to Judas' infraction. Again: I'm using this as an example of how grace is a gift, which God gives freely, just as He gives repentance as a gift. He gave Peter repentance, who betrayed Christ three times but Judas only betrayed Him once. Peter wasn't rewarded for his works, he was given grace. God gives grace to whomsoever He will and judgment upon whomsoever He will.