Saved by Grace or/and by Works
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Believing with your mind is not believing in your heart.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
And the law you tout and claim will give you eternal life..... you do err.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
No, Paul does not tell us we are judged by our deeds. On the contrary, he insists our deeds do not make us righteous...nor do they justify us....nor do they give us life. Paul's entire message is different than what our Lord preached while He walked among us in the flesh. Paul says, "BUT NOW.... (READ IT)
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
So, you are confusing the rewards and loss of rewards we receive at the Bema Seat. This has nothing to do with our salvation. Read this verse....Paul makes it very clear. This refers to the refiners fire...not the fire of judgment or condemnation.
READ IT....don't skim it.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I told you. The Romans Road must be followed ....step by step.
Who obeys the law? Fail in one point, fail in all. IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW....is Paul contradicting himself, or is he elaborating on what he has been teaching about the law from the very beginning of the Romans Road. If there had been a law given which could have given life.....
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Yes yes...we know yours think in Christ means without law...once you graduated from the schoolmaster you do what is contrary to what you were taught...you raptured yourself from a faith with works and fruit more like Him His...
right faith first...faith that you were saved by grace...now live as if you were...bought by a Master...Who has a yoke and gives you burdens...follow Him His Way...even to the cross
Right the law is NOT against the life that was given it IS the life given...
Israel (and the foreigners within their gates) was saved first and then given the Law...the way to live having been saved...
And will be when Is 66:23
Your hatred of what is His Way blinds you to that the law describes what life will be like when it finally is on earth as it was in heaven...
csuguy
Well-known member
The preaching of the Cross and Scripture are "platitudes"?
The way you are using them currently is as platitudes. You aren't adding anything to the conversation with those scriptures - merely making excuses for why you can't substantiate your theology.
csuguy
Well-known member
I'll agree with you there. As James 2 says, faith without deeds is dead.
I don't claim that the law itself gives you life - Christ is very much central to salvation. For Christ trapped sin in the flesh, giving us an opportunity at a new life. For the seed for the next life is the Word of God, and by persevering in doing good till the end we will receive what is promised.
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Luke 8:11-15 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
1 Peter 1:17-23 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
You are blatantly ignoring Paul's own words. Anything to avoid Romans 2:6-11, eh? You keep trying to tip toe around it - but it's not going away.
Furthermore Paul stated that what makes one righteous is obeying the Law: " For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." (Romans 2:13)
As for Romans 3, he is drawing a distinction between the traditions and customs of Israel vs the lack thereof to the Gentiles. For, as he previously explained in Romans 2, a gentile's conscience becomes a law for them independent of the Law given to the Jews. For...
Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
He concluded the chapter with the following:
Romans 2:28-29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Paul can be tricky with his application of the use of the word "law" - for he does not restrict it's usage to the Mosaic Law. Depending upon the context, it sometimes means God's Law, other times it means Jewish customs and traditions, and other times it refers to the temptations of the flesh, to sin.
In fact, in the very same passage that you are using to try to speak against the law - he asserts we are under a different law:
Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
Similarly, in other places...
Romans 7:21-23 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
So we have the "the law that requires works", "the law that requires faith", gentiles are a law to themselves, "God's Law", "Christ's Law", and "the law of sin."
So, you see, Paul quite flexible with the idea of "law" in his theology. If he says you aren't under one law, he says you ARE under another. He explicitly states that he is not free from God's Law, but is under Christ's Law (1Cor 9:21). There is, thus, no getting away from the Law. It's merely a question of which law are you following?
What is salvation but life, and what is condemnation but death? You are being silly here.
Context. 1 Cor 3 is speaking specifically of those who are building on Christ - aka, they are actively doing the will of God. So, yes, if you go out and do the will of God - but it ends up not being fruitful, then you may yet pass through the flames and be saved. However, this doesn't apply to those who aren't actively building anything - who do nothing.
Matthew 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
csuguy
Well-known member
If we only were relying upon the Law you'd be right - we'd still be condemned. But that isn't what I'm arguing, so you are attacking a straw man.
Christ addressed sin so that we can start anew. Through Christ we have every ability to fulfill the Law. And we know how to fullfill the Law...
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God.
And this brings us back to Matthew...
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Additionally...
Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Finally, review the parable of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25. Those who help others in need are said to help God in his time of need, while those who do not help others are said to abandon God in his time of need.
In summary...
1. To love is to fulfill the Law
2. To love is to be known by God
3. We were created for the purpose of doing good works.
4. When we do good works, when we show love to others, they are treated as if done for God himself.
5. When we don't do good works, when we don't show love to others but abandon them, it is treated as if abandoning God himself.
6. To those that God casts out he says "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
THEREFORE:
Damnation results from not being known by God. We are known by God when we love others, and loving others is the fulfillment of the law. Thus to be saved we must fulfill God's Law.
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beloved57
Well-known member
In my faith we believe people are saved purely by grace apart from peoples works. Eph 2:8-9
Biblically, when God is saying He does not have favorites, He is pointing out two things.
1) All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God acknowledges that there is no human that is good. Not one stands out from the other. Their righteousness is as filthy rags.
2) When God chooses, He chooses, not according to any virtues or merit found in an individual. He chooses because He is Sovereign and He can. When He chooses, it is not bound to any specific social group or ethnic group or any structure set up by humans. There is neither Jew nor Greek, nor slave nor free nor male nor female, we are all one in Christ Jesus. God tells us His choice was made before the foundation of the world. God does not show favoritism.
God is Sovereign. God chooses whom He wills. YOU and I have no say in the matter. We are sinners who fall wholly at the feet of a God who holds our souls in His hands to meet out justice or pardon by His decision alone.
Your concept of favoritism is not biblically sound. You are making yourself god and judging the Creator God. That is wrong.
Right Divider
Body part
And my experience with you personally, it that you are too smart for your own good.
Nowhere in scripture can you find that there is ONE and ONLY ONE "good news", you just made that up out of thin air
Gospel simple means GOOD NEWS and there is plenty of GOOD NEWS in the Bible.
And there were reasons that he did what he did. And it had nothing to with "one and only one gospel".
Perhaps you are blissfully unaware that God has ALWAYS allowed gentiles to join with Israel. This was true from the beginning. This does NOT mean that there is "one and only one gospel" in the Bible.
You are FAR more into platitudes than I am.
The "repayment" is NOT speaking about eternal life. Also note that the Jew first has nothing to do with the gospel of the grace of God. Paul is giving a HISTORY lesson in Romans 2. How can you miss something so simple? Do yo think that "behold, thou art called a Jew" is speaking to the general public? Never mind, you probably do.
There is a reason that God chose TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of Israel and ONE apostle for the body of Christ.
Also, you idea of "favoritism" is well overblown. God separated Israel from all of the other people on earth for a reason. God made many promises to them. Many of those promises are yet to be fulfilled. At the END of the Bible where Christ sets up His kingdom on the earth, Israel has a special place and the gentile kings come to Israel to bless Israel and to be blessed by Israel. Read about it in Revelation 20-21 and compare to Isaiah 60.
“Perhaps you are blissfully unaware that God has ALWAYS allowed gentiles to join with Israel. This was true from the beginning. This does NOT mean that there is "one and only one gospel" in the Bible.“
Ruth left her god and joined Him His people...she was now part of Israel
she did NOT bring with her pork chop recipes rationalizing that her new God did not dispense to her the don’t eat swine rule...don’t think she violated the sabbath for the same reason...no of course not...
she bore fruit of the trunk she was grafted into...
It has ALWAYS BEEN...ONE LAW for native and foreigner...the foreigner does NOT rapture himself of the rules claiming they were “not to me”...he does NOT divide the kingdom between those that do and those that don’t need to...
You believe you have faith? You are saved and part of HIS PEOPLE...adopted INTO the family...
and then you are given the qualifications to seperate you from those that are NOT saved...or not believing...and rewarded for DOING them...and overcoming until the end...not giving up or dividing yourself from house chores
Faith without works...is dead...you wish to live forever? believe IN HIM...then work HIS WORKS...as He did
That is the ONE GOSPEL
Here's the catch though.
When Gentiles left their way of life and became Jews, they really did become Jews. They were no longer identified as Gentiles. They were, from that point forward, identified as Jews.
On the other hand, though, it's completely different with the Body of Christ. When Jews AND Gentiles join the Body of Christ, they are no longer identified as EITHER JEW OR GENTILE, but rather, their identity is in Christ.
That's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the way it was before Paul's conversion.
csuguy
Well-known member
You had one job - present the scriptural definition, "God's definition," of favoritism that you referred to in your previous post. You have failed to do so. Try again.
Oh...so yours replace the wall between jew and goyim...and claim what was given to Israel is NOT for you...and Jews have their own way in...dividing His kingdom...
Thought Paul was clear enough...in Him there was NOT
You just want to rapture yourselves from obedience to Him His Way...
csuguy
Well-known member
Flattery will get you no where
Interpreted literally you could argue that there is, in fact, a lot of good news in scripture - but the scriptures don't use the term so freely. It's reserved for THE gospel, to the news of Christ - his sacrifice, resurrection, and what that means for us. And there is only one valid gospel:
Mark 10:29-31 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
Paul maintains there is only one gospel, as seen above. At any rate, your position raises more questions than it provides answers. For instance: why would God accept and baptize gentiles under the old "inferior" gospel if the gospel intended for them was right around the corner? And, secondly, why would God give the Jews one gospel and everyone else a different one? Why are the Jews judged by their deeds, but you have to do nothing? That makes no sense and reeks of favoritism. Indeed, he wouldn't.
Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes - we are all one in the same in Christ. So why do YOU insist upon making a distinction?
Indeed he has - and continues to do so. Hence, as noted above, we have become co-heirs with Israel, members of one body. For we have been joined to Israel.
Romans 11:17-24 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
False - I've only encouraged discussion. Platitudes are used to end discussion via a facade of wisdom.
This is non-sense used to avoid facing what Paul wrote. It isn't a history lesson - he is talking of the future judgement. And - yes - he is speaking of eternal life. Read it again....
Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Who says there was only one apostle? In the first place, the 12 are referred to as apostles...
Matthew 10:1-3 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Paul was called to be an apostle in addition to the twelve. There is no reason to imagine that that is all there were. For instance, what of Timothy whom Paul trained - is he not an apostle if he does as Paul did?
Indeed, Apostle = Messenger. An Apostle is one who delivers the Gospel to others.
On the contrary, YOU simply wish to sweep the fact that favoritism is a sin under the rug, the same way you want to sweep Romans 2:6-11 under the rug. These things are so blatantly contradictory to your theology that you know something has to give - so you try to throw out God's Word in favor of your traditions.
Right Divider
Body part
:wave2:Flattery will get you no where
More platitudes.
Indeed the scripture does use it freely and in various contexts.That is why you will frequently see "THE GOSPEL OF".
More platitudes.
No, you are just believing a myth someone told you. The fact that there are frequent uses of "THE GOSPEL OF" proves you completely wrong.
Once again, as so many do, you pick some scriptures and try to FORCE YOUR meaning upon them.
I have already addressed Galatians 1 in a blog post (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3469-Another-gospel-in-Galatians-1) that explains your simple mistake and lack of understanding context.
No, he did not. He had a SPECIFIC audience that he was addressing as can be seen in the passage. But that CONTEXT is beyond your ability to understand.
None of the gospels are "inferior", but that does NOT mean that they are all IDENTICAL. The gospel of the KINGDOM has a context which you cannot understand due to your tradition.
Of course, God is the Creator of ALL and YET He called out Israel FROM the nations and gave them special blessings (along with responsibilities).
Indeed Paul is talking about THIS MYSTERY, the body of Christ... which NOBODY knew about until God revealed it TO AND THROUGH Paul.
Indeed, in the body of Christ there is no distinction. That does NOT mean that there never was before and that there will not be again in the future.
Indeed, in the body of Christ there is no distinction. That does NOT mean that there never was before and that there will not be again in the future.
Once again, you are trying to make the revelation given to Paul retroactive throughout all time. I only make the distinction just where God puts it, whereas you try to broad-brush it OUT everywhere,
TOO LONG.... your post was. Start another thread if you want to discuss the different between the various types of apostles, etc.
I showed you how God defines it, using scripture. Your failure to grasp that is on you and you alone. Your ignorance does not require me to try again. That is on you to recognize your failure. I will leave you to your ignorance.
Huh?
Clefty, Prior to Paul, there was a distinction (recorded in the Bible throughout the Old Testament and in the four Gospels and in the first half of Acts) between Jew and Gentile.
However, that distinction disappeared after Paul's conversion (Paul even states there is no longer Jew nor Gentile).
If that's not the breaking down of a wall, I don't know what is.
Does God usually give to other nations what He promised to Israel?
Or does He usually give to Israel that which He promised Israel?
Please elaborate?
If God's overarching Kingdom has two parts to it, the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of earth", wouldn't that mean that it was already divided?
Not what?
You keep saying this, but you won't explain what you mean?
Right Divider
Body part
He is just a mocker that likes to beat up his straw-man.