Saved by Grace or/and by Works

[Wolguar]

As my religion goes we believe people are saved by both God(Whom I call Heavenly Father)'s grace and our works. We believe all people can live again, but the kingdom they reside in, in Heaven is based on their works. I am curious about what other people think about this topic and which other religions share this belief.

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[Bright Raven]

As my religion goes we believe people are saved by both God(Whom I call Heavenly Father)'s grace and our works. We believe all people can live again, but the kingdom they reside in, in Heaven is based on their works. I am curious about what other people think about this topic and which other religions share this belief.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[csuguy]

What almost every Christian fails to realize is that fulfillment of the Law - by us - is an essential component of the New Covenant. Take a look at the promise of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”​

So under the New Covenant, God's Law is written directly on our minds and hearts (vs the Mosaic Covenant, where God wrote on external stone tablets).

In addition to this, Christ is quite explicit that the Law isn't going anywhere - and condemns anyone who teaches otherwise:

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

So God's Law serves as the very foundation of the New Covenant, and Christ was quite clear that nothing in the Law was going away. Indeed, in the Great Commission Christ tells us to go and teach others to obey the commandments:

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

Even Paul, who people fail to understand and constantly misquote, says that he is under God's Law.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
​

To those who say that it is impossible to fulfill God's Law, that is simply untrue. God was quite clear from the outset that it was within our grasp to keep the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
​

Christ and his followers were quite clear that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So central is love to all of this that God is himself said to be love.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
​

So then, through love we fulfill the Law and are known by God. On the other hand, those who do not love are not known by God - and these he casts out saying "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."

 

[Wolguar]

Ephesians 2:8-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I see what you mean there. Here are a few things I found on the subject.

(King James Version)
Works: Matt. 5:16; Matt. 7:21; Matt. 10:22; James 2:14-36

Grace: John 1:17; Acts 15:11; Rom. 3: 23-24; Eph. 2: 8-9

Both: 2 Ne. 10:24; 2 Me. 25:23; Mosiah 13:28; Alma 42:23; Moro. 10: 32-33


"We receive God's grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation." (ChurchofJesusChrist.org)


Source:
https://www.lds.org/study/new-era/2005/03/tough-topics-are-you-saved-by-grace-or-works?lang=eng







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[Bradley D]

"Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). As a Christian my faith makes me want to do good things. However, none of those works will buy my way into heaven. The base of those works must be charity or they mean nothing.

 

[Aimiel]

But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.

 

[csuguy]

Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

 

[Wolguar]

Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.

Repentance is God's gift. I think you are confusing immortality with eternal life/salvation. Everyone will gain immortality. That is God's grace. If God's grace is all we need then why would he ask us to keep his commandments. He knows we're not perfect, so by our works those who show they love God have the opportunity of living with God in the next life. Those who didn't know him receive his grace and are in a slightly higher kingdom of glory than those who reject him. Everyone receives immortality, but it's similar the parable of the ten talents.

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[csuguy]

Repentance is God's gift. I think you are confusing immortality with eternal life/salvation. Everyone will gain immortality. That is God's grace. If God's grace is all we need then why would he ask us to keep his commandments. He knows we're not perfect, so by our works those who show they love God have the opportunity of living with God in the next life. Those who didn't know him receive his grace and are in a slightly higher kingdom of glory than those who reject him. Everyone receives immortality, but it's similar the parable of the ten talents.

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This is incorrect. Eternal life is the reward for good deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

 

[Wolguar]

This is incorrect. Eternal life is the reward for good deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

I love that quote and I completely agree with you. Eternal Life is the reward for good deeds.

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[glorydaz]

What almost every Christian fails to realize is that fulfillment of the Law - by us - is an essential component of the New Covenant. Take a look at the promise of the New Covenant:

Spoiler

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”​

So under the New Covenant, God's Law is written directly on our minds and hearts (vs the Mosaic Covenant, where God wrote on external stone tablets).

In addition to this, Christ is quite explicit that the Law isn't going anywhere - and condemns anyone who teaches otherwise:

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

So God's Law serves as the very foundation of the New Covenant, and Christ was quite clear that nothing in the Law was going away. Indeed, in the Great Commission Christ tells us to go and teach others to obey the commandments:

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

Even Paul, who people fail to understand and constantly misquote, says that he is under God's Law.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
​

To those who say that it is impossible to fulfill God's Law, that is simply untrue. God was quite clear from the outset that it was within our grasp to keep the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
​

Christ and his followers were quite clear that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So central is love to all of this that God is himself said to be love.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
​

So then, through love we fulfill the Law and are known by God. On the other hand, those who do not love are not known by God - and these he casts out saying "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."

Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law IN US during this dispensation of Grace.

Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[glorydaz]

I love that quote and I completely agree with you. Eternal Life is the reward for good deeds.

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No, eternal life is a GIFT....not a reward.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

And why?

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.​

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

CHRIST GETS ALL THE GLORY, and no man can boast.


You need to rethink what you believe Paul is saying in Romans 2.

 

[glorydaz]

Nope. That would make salvation something you acquire by WORKS. Repentance is God's Gift.

Repentance? Scripture?

 

[csuguy]

Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law IN US during this dispensation of Grace.

Romans 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

This verses doesn't agree with your position up at the top. It doesn't say that Jesus fulfilled the law in us (ie, for us) such that we don't have to do anything anymore (else there would be no judgement). What it says is that Jesus enabled those of us who walk after the Spirit to fulfill the law. Hence the passage continues...

Romans 8:5-8 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.​

Those who walk in the Spirit are those who have set their minds on things of the Spirit. Those with minds set on the flesh are hostile to God and will not subject themselves to the law of God. Only by focusing on the things of the Spirit do we become capable of fulfilling and rejoicing in God's Law.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law​

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.​

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.​

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Good verse - but it doesn't make your case. Yes, Jesus' sacrifice was a mercy that we did not earn - none of us. However, the story doesn't end there. There is still a judgement, people will still be cast down and not receive eternal life. There is more going on, more that is required of us to receive eternal life. As I noted in my earlier post - we both fulfill the Law and are known by God via Love. Those who do not fulfill the Law, who do not love, are not known by God and will be cast out.

 

[glorydaz]

This verses doesn't agree with your position up at the top. It doesn't say that Jesus fulfilled the law in us (ie, for us) such that we don't have to do anything anymore (else there would be no judgement). What it says is that Jesus enabled those of us who walk after the Spirit to fulfill the law. Hence the passage continues...

Before you continue... Paul says quite clearly, there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus, which makes it clear there will be no judgement for those IN CHRIST JESUS. So, yes, it does mean that we don't HAVE to do anything anymore...not to earn salvation, and not to avoid being condemned.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1... who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Paul goes on to explain that those IN CHRIST JESUS are NOT in the flesh.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

This refers to our state of being...not our state of doing.

Therefore, when Paul tells us Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law IN US, he means exactly that. Not for us, but IN US.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,​

As for Romans 7, that is talking about the law and it's purpose. I'll have to address that in the next post. I can't handle too much at one time.

 

[csuguy]

Before you continue... Paul says quite clearly, there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus, which makes it clear there will be no judgement for those IN CHRIST JESUS. So, yes, it does mean that we don't HAVE to do anything anymore...not to earn salvation, and not to avoid being condemned.

Jesus died for all - yet not all are saved. The question is what separates the saved from the unsaved, the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46). The answer: their deeds.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1... who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Paul goes on to explain that those IN CHRIST JESUS are NOT in the flesh.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

This refers to our state of being...not our state of doing.

Incorrect. The chapter explains what it means by contrasting living in the Spirit vs the flesh. Those who live after the flesh cannot please God, and are incapable of obeying God's Law. Those who live after the Spirit are capable of pleasing God, and rejoice in fulfilling God's Law (v5-8). Paul says we have an obligation to live according to the Spirit - aka, we must act accordingly and thereby live. (v12-13)

Romans 8:12-13 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.​

Therefore, when Paul tells us Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law IN US, he means exactly that. Not for us, but IN US.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,​

Again, that verse doesn't say what you want it to say. It doesn't state that Jesus fulfilled the law in us. It says God "condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Jesus gave us an opportunity and the ability to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law - he didn't do everything for us. Hence even though Jesus died for all, this verse qualifies that the ones who might fulfill the Law are those who live according to the Spirit. You have an obligation to act in accordance with the Spirit, thereby fulfilling the Law.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.​

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus died for all - yet not all are saved. The question is what separates the saved from the unsaved, the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-46). The answer: their deeds.

That is NOT speaking of the Body of Christ. We are neither sheep nor goats.

Incorrect. The chapter explains what it means by contrasting living in the Spirit vs the flesh. Those who live after the flesh cannot please God, and are incapable of obeying God's Law. Those who live after the Spirit are capable of pleasing God, and rejoice in fulfilling God's Law (v5-8). Paul says we have an obligation to live according to the Spirit - aka, we must act accordingly and thereby live. (v12-13)

Those who are in the flesh are unbelievers. Unbelivers are incapable of obeying God. I agree with that. They are carnal.

Those who are in the Spirit are believers. We have the Spirit dwelling in us. Read this carefully. Those who have the Spirit dwelling in them are IN THE SPIRIT...NOT the flesh. Those in the flesh are NONE OF HIS.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

Romans 8:12-13 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.​

If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Notice this is done through the Spirit, and we see it is our old man being crucified with Him. This is not something we do, but is done for us by the Spirit.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.​

We see the same here...This is done when we are created IN CHRIST JESUS. "Have put off"....a done deal.

Colossians 3:9
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;​

Again, that verse doesn't say what you want it to say.

I'm not wanting those verses to say anything. They seem very clear to me. :think:

 

[csuguy]

That is NOT speaking of the Body of Christ. We are neither sheep nor goats.

Uh, yes, it is speaking of us. It is speaking of all people.

Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.​

Those who are in the flesh are unbelievers. Unbelivers are incapable of obeying God. I agree with that. They are carnal.

Incorrect. Paul does not differentiate by their beliefs, but by what they set their minds on. Simple intellectual belief in of itself has no value. It's a question of what focuses on, their true values, what they want and devote themselves to.

As James 2:19 says, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

Those who are in the Spirit are believers. We have the Spirit dwelling in us. Read this carefully. Those who have the Spirit dwelling in them are IN THE SPIRIT...NOT the flesh. Those in the flesh are NONE OF HIS.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

Believing or not believing is not what he differentiates people by - it is how they live, what they sets their minds on. As Christ said...

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

Belief without deeds is dead and cannot save you (James 2).

If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Notice this is done through the Spirit, and we see it is our old man being crucified with Him. This is not something we do, but is done for us by the Spirit.

First off, use a modern English translation. There is nothing special about old english - you only create additional translation complexities for yourself. If your theology hinges upon an old english translation - that's a good sign it's some really bad theology.

Secondly, even using the KJV it doesn't change the meaning when read in context. Paul is still saying we have a debt/obligation to live through the Spirit. Only by living accordingly shall ye live.

Romans 8:12-13 (KJV) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.​

We see the same here...This is done when we are created IN CHRIST JESUS. "Have put off"....a done deal.

Colossians 3:9
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;​

Incorrect - it is a constant struggle and decision to do what is right. Hence Paul is constantly telling us to persevere to the end so that we will be saved. In fact, he eloquently describes his ongoing struggle like so:

Romans 7:21-25 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

I'm not wanting those verses to say anything. They seem very clear to me. :think:

Oh, you very clearly do want them to say something that they don't say. You very selectively ignore and augment the scriptures to build up towards a predetermined theology. You even use archaic translations.

 

[clefty]

What almost every Christian fails to realize is that fulfillment of the Law - by us - is an essential component of the New Covenant. Take a look at the promise of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”​

So under the New Covenant, God's Law is written directly on our minds and hearts (vs the Mosaic Covenant, where God wrote on external stone tablets).

In addition to this, Christ is quite explicit that the Law isn't going anywhere - and condemns anyone who teaches otherwise:

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

So God's Law serves as the very foundation of the New Covenant, and Christ was quite clear that nothing in the Law was going away. Indeed, in the Great Commission Christ tells us to go and teach others to obey the commandments:

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”​

Even Paul, who people fail to understand and constantly misquote, says that he is under God's Law.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
​

To those who say that it is impossible to fulfill God's Law, that is simply untrue. God was quite clear from the outset that it was within our grasp to keep the Law.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
​

Christ and his followers were quite clear that Love is the fulfillment of the Law. So central is love to all of this that God is himself said to be love.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
​

So then, through love we fulfill the Law and are known by God. On the other hand, those who do not love are not known by God - and these he casts out saying "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers."

Yup...

And to Love as He loved us...just as...not as the pagans love...or the Buddhist...or the Muslims or the jews...but AS He loved us...

NO DISTINCTION between jew and goyim...no wall between...IN HIM just a citizen of Israel...

Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and have the faith OF Yahushua...living AS He did...as we will be when it is on earth as it is in heaven...just as

 

[Wolguar]

No, eternal life is a GIFT....not a reward.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

And why?

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.​

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

CHRIST GETS ALL THE GLORY, and no man can boast.


You need to rethink what you believe Paul is saying in Romans 2.

I'm sorry glorydaz. I really am. I wasn't trying to say the Lord wasn't being graceful to us, and I wasn't trying to say we earned it without such grace. My position hasn't changed. God loves everyone equally. We're all his children. I simply believe that God wants us to increase our spiritual potential here on earth to become more like him, which we can do when he gives us grace for grace. He has given all men immortality as his gift. I mean he shouldn't punish people who never learned of his word and Jesus satisfied justice so all of us could live again.

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