Royal or Majestic we in Hebrew / Let Us

[Jerry Shugart]

To reason together, using the mind. Yet the trinity doctrine defies reason, and admits to it thru means of being a mystery.

Does this defy reason?:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen.2:24).​

 

[daqq]

Yes. Whether anyone ultimately agrees with me, they really should make the effort to understand the paradox they've embraced as Classic Trinitarians.

The Scutum Fidei "shield" illustration perfectly demonstrates the problem. Who is "God" in the middle of the diagram? Clearly not the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit.

If it's the ousia (essence/being/wealth), it's a fourth component.

It's ridiculous.

(And the vast majority of professing Classic Trinitarians aren't really Trinitarians at all. But they don't know it because they don't know squat about the minutiae of their own alleged doctrine.)

:thumb:

Then why did you say; "The classic Trinitarian diagram called the Scrutum Fidei displays perfectly what I mean" Lambchop?

1) You neither understood nor paid any attention to my actual question.
2) I did not write only the words "what I mean" but "what I mean by my question".
3) Just because I posted a diagram to make a point does not mean I agree with it.
4) You do not even understand that there is a problem with your own belief system.
5) If you do not even realize that there is a problem how can you resolve it?
6) If your eye is like an evil nomad wanderer pluck him out and cast him from you.
7) Same goes for the evil hand or foot: Chop, chop, lamb-chop! :crackup:

:sheep:

 

[oatmeal]

No, not really. You see Jesus is also plainly referred to as Elohim in Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God[Elohim], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

I have shown this to you before, but you regurgitate the same invalid assertions repeatedly.

And we are told that Jesus created the earth. Jesus is also YHWH with the Father, so as YHWH Elohim they created the earth.
While this does not necessarily prove the "doctrine of the trinity," it does disprove you.

You want to allege a "royal we" where it supports your theory but ignore where it does not such as:

Deuteronomy 10:17

17 For the Lord your God is God[El] of elohim, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Now in some places it is used as a singular noun such as the word family would be, but a family still refers to more than one personage.

As is Moses in Exodus 7:1 KJV and others in Psalms 82 plus others in Exodus

If Jesus is God because he is referred to as elohim, then so is Moses and all the other people God calls Gods. See John 10:34-35 where Jesus himself teaches that.

 

[StanJ]

1) You neither understood nor paid any attention to my actual question.
2) I did not write only the words "what I mean" but "what I mean by my question".
3) Just because I posted a diagram to make a point does not mean I agree with it.
4) You do not even understand that there is a problem with your own belief system.
5) If you do not even realize that there is a problem how can you resolve it?
6) If your eye is like an evil nomad wanderer pluck him out and cast him from you.
7) Same goes for the evil hand or foot: Chop, chop, lamb-chop!

So is that a YES or a NO?

 

[daqq]

So is that a YES or a NO?

You do not even understand your own question to me in this exchange?
Your last question was a "WHY"? which is not a request for a yes or no answer:

Originally Posted by StanJ
Then why did you say; "The classic Trinitarian diagram called the Scrutum Fidei displays perfectly what I mean" Lambchop?

As for your question previous to this one I already answered you with a yes or no answer but you apparently did not READ my answer that time either.

:sheep:

 

[StanJ]

You do not even understand your own question to me in this exchange?
Your last question was a "WHY"? which is not a request for a yes or no answer:
As for your question previous to this one I already answered you with a yes or no answer but you apparently did not READ my answer that time either.

Maybe if you would stop skipping you could answer.

 

[CherubRam]

Does this defy reason?:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen.2:24).​

Oneness also means unity, for which everyone understands.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Oneness also means unity, for which everyone understands.

So the concept of "one" God can mean a "unity"?

So when we read this verse we can understand that the "One" on the throne is both God and the Lamb?:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

 

[achduke]

So the concept of "one" God can mean a "unity"?

So when we read this verse we can understand that the "One" on the throne is both God and the Lamb?:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Is not Jesus the temple of God? When you see Jesus you also see the Father who dwells in Jesus.

 

[CherubRam]

So the concept of "one" God can mean a "unity"?

So when we read this verse we can understand that the "One" on the throne is both God and the Lamb?:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Those who will judge sit on separate thrones. Christ sits next to the Father in unity. We are also to be ONE with the Father.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be ONE as we are one.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Those who will judge sit on separate thrones. Christ sits next to the Father in unity. We are also to be ONE with the Father.

The vision given to John is in regard to the Millennial kingdom, and the thrones which he saw were these thrones:

"That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:30).​

the following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega then the one speaking is also Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

We can also see that the Lord Jesus is called the "Almighty":

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

 

[RevTestament]

As is Moses in Exodus 7:1 KJV and others in Psalms 82 plus others in Exodus

If Jesus is God because he is referred to as elohim, then so is Moses and all the other people God calls Gods. See John 10:34-35 where Jesus himself teaches that.

I used to have a thread which addressed this issue which recently got deleted. It was "the Family of God." I am not sure if we are on the same page here, but I believe we see at least close to eye to eye.
I believe Elohim means something like "family of immovable force/stone. " What's more is Jesus never applied that to Gentiles, but to the "chosen" people. Why? Why did their law refer to them as Elohim? What name do they have which shall continue even in the new world?
When YHWH said things like I am YHWH ("the LORD") your Elohim ("God") I believe He is saying something like I am the life/word/breath of your family of stone/immovable force. I don't think the English translation does justice to the names at all.
If you believe that all the world were called "elohim" then we do not agree. I think you need to ask yourself, why did YHWH refer to Hebrews as elohim? Why were they "chosen" if YHWH is no respecter of persons? Does this have something to do with His knowing Jeremiah before forming him in the belly and ordaining him as a prophet? Was Jeremiah one of the 144,000 of the 12 tribes sealed in Revelation 7?

 

[daqq]

Does this defy reason?:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen.2:24).​

It defies neither reason nor logic. It has both a natural and a supernal meaning. The supernal meaning becomes corrupted in the garden when the man and his helpmate transgress. The supernal meaning is corrected and set right in the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew. The natural meaning is plain and simple: when the man and his wife together produce a child, the child produced is then both of them in one physical literal flesh.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It defies neither reason nor logic...The natural meaning is plain and simple: when the man and his wife together produce a child, the child produced is then both of them in one physical literal flesh.

Then why does Paul refer to it as a "mystery"?:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

 

[RevTestament]

It defies neither reason nor logic. It has both a natural and a supernal meaning. The supernal meaning becomes corrupted in the garden when the man and his helpmate transgress. The supernal meaning is corrected and set right in the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew. The natural meaning is plain and simple: when the man and his wife together produce a child, the child produced is then both of them in one physical literal flesh.

Somehow I never got quite this far along in the thought process...
although you might need to explain your interpretation of the "supernal" meaning to me a little...

 

[CherubRam]

The vision given to John is in regard to the Millennial kingdom, and the thrones which he saw were these thrones:

"That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Lk.22:30).​

the following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega then the one speaking is also Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

We can also see that the Lord Jesus is called the "Almighty":

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:7-8).​

Only Yahwah is Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and Ending. This Revelation translation part is faulty. Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. It was also discovered in another part of Revelation and was removed for being a contradiction.

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Revelation 1:7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.





Psalm 110:1
(The Lord / Yahwah) says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”


Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 22:44
(“‘The Lord / Yahwah) said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”’

Mark 10:40
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”

 

[RevTestament]

Only Yahwah is Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and Ending. This Revelation translation part is faulty. Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. It was also discovered in another part of Revelation and was removed for being a contradiction.

In what? - the JW adulterated version of the Bible? God warned not to change Revelation and remove things from it. Therefore they cannot inherit the name as the 144,000 since they believe they know better than God. R they also going to remove all the OT prophecies regarding the Branch being called YHWH? You have revealed your true allegiance...

 

[StanJ]

Oneness also means unity, for which everyone understands.

Remember this the next time you state God is one. This is exactly what the Shema means. God is ONE, He is in unity with His triune nature.

 

[daqq]

Then why does Paul refer to it as a "mystery"?:

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery" (Eph.5:31-32).​

I did not deny a supernal meaning in my response.

Somehow I never got quite this far along in the thought process...
although you might need to explain your interpretation of the "supernal" meaning to me a little...

Not really possible in the middle of a shootout at the OK Corral.
Even if there is a break in the action while Wyatt and Doc reload . . . :crackup:
Ah well . . . I know what I know from the Scripture . . .

:sheep:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only Yahwah is Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and Ending. This Revelation translation part is faulty.

Of course you must assert that it is a faulty translation. Where can a correct translation be found?