1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Nope.
Jerry's one of yers.
Although if he would drop the dispy mindset he is closer than you have shown yourself to be.
ECT Our triune God
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
Nope.
Jerry's one of yers.
Although if he would drop the dispy mindset he is closer than you have shown yourself to be.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I ain't skeert. Just concerned about your recent destabilization.
Aneurysm? Home lobotomy kit? What's been up with you?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us. But that does not prove that He was not Man prior to being born of Mary. After all, the Lord Jesus said this:
"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).
The Lord Jesus says that He was in heaven as Son of Man before He came down to the earth. Therefore, He was Man before He came down and was born of Mary.
You assume that a flesh and blood body is essential to being a human but as usual you are wrong.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Your idea is that originally the Lord Jesus had only one nature and then later He acquired another nature. But that idea is contradicted by this:
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).
And this:
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail" (Heb.1:10-12).
And you still have been unable to give an intelligent answer to what the Lord Jesus said here:
"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).
The Lord Jesus says that He was in heaven as Son of Man before He came down to the earth. Therefore, He was Man before He came down and was born of Mary.
You are the one who is a heretic because your little ideas are clearly contradicted by the Scriptures.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Of course I do...
Here is John Chrysostom writing in the 5th century on this passage:
"And what manner of sequel is this?" asks one. The very closest, and entirely in unison with what has gone before. For since Nicodemus had said, "We know that You are a teacher come from God," on this very point He sets him right, all but saying, "Think Me not a teacher in such manner as were the many of the prophets who were of earth, for I have come from heaven (but) now. None of the prophets has ascended up there, but I dwell there." Do you see how even that which appears very exalted is utterly unworthy of his greatness? For not in heaven only is He, but everywhere, and He fills all things; but yet He speaks according to the infirmity of His hearer, desiring to lead him up little by little. And in this place He called not the flesh "Son of Man," but He now named, so to speak, His entire Self from the inferior substance; indeed this is His wont, to call His whole Person often from His Divinity, and often from His humanity. |
I already answered that question, and you disagreed with my answer...
Have you forgotten?
eg That God created man first as a body, and only then breathed the Spirit into him, so that the disembodied souls are only partially human, and are awaiting the Resurrection of their bodies in order to regain their humanity... And that for us who are dead on earth, we gain our life by losing it... Remember Christ saying: "Let the dead bury their dead" when a follower wanted to follow Him AFTER burying his father...
Your proof text is not explicated by the worshiping community that wrote it in the way that you insist it must be interpreted...
That is the Apostolic and Historic Church, the Body of Christ, which wrote and interprets what it wrote...
A.
glorydaz
Well-known member
He was in heaven as God....He was up there before. I'm not the one doing the "assuming" here. :doh:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So those who have died in Christ and are now in heaven are just partially human?
Are you not aware of the "inner man"?
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man" (Eph.3:10).
Are you not aware of the outward man?:
"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day" (2 Cor.4:16).
The Christians who have passed away and are with the Lord cannot be described as an outer man because they have no body. But what is in heaven is the "inner man." But you think that those who are dead in Christ are awaiting the Resurrection of their bodies in order to regain their humanity.
If they ceased being human then what happened to their "inner man?"
And why do we read about men being in heaven?:
"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" (Rev.5:3).
He doesn't accept John 1:1 so it's NOT surprising he won't admit this.
With all due respect, Jerry doesn't accept anything that is NOT Darby.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
If you'd been listening to me you'd know.
I've stayed the same.
Evidently my private words to you were not as humbling as you claimed.
Never have read Augie but in yer claim to reconcile all them dudes ummm you missed the mark.
You just conveniently dismissed him.
The only way one can just dismiss Original sin is if they think it's possible for man to justify God or even plead their case with Him.
1 Corinthians 2:11 KJV
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Job made the mistake of thinking he could plead his case but changed his tune.
Job 42:6 KJV
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Romans 9:20 KJV
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Then there is yer idea that God has a hypostasis that governs his actions.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Why do you continue to refuse to answer these questions, Jerry?
AMR
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
You don't understand Uncle Augie's Original Sin doctrine. Probably because you never read him.
And we are conceived in spiritual death, with inevitable sin and its wages of physical death.
Yep. Oida. Intuitive spiritual knowledge.
Okay.........
Ummm... God IS a hypostasis. Hebrews is clear. The Son is the express image OF His hypostasis.
The hypostasis underlies the ousia and its physis, all outwardly presented by the prosopon.
God doesn't "have" a hypostasis that governs His actions.
You're just... out there. Not knowing the definition of hypostasis is a glaring omission in understanding. You're miles off. Parsecs, even.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have answered many of your questions. You are just trying to change the subject from my remarks from my last post to you. Here they are again. You said:
You are the one who refuses to believe the Scriptures and therefore you remain totally confused. You said earlier:
You always revert back to your foolishness. You assert that the Lord Jesus originally had only one nature and then He assumed a Human nature. But that means that He underwent a radical change. But that idea is contradicted by the Scriptures:
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail" (Heb.1:10-12).
You refuse to believe both of those verses because of your preconceived idea that a flesh and blood body is essential to being a human. And you refuse to the believe the Lord Jesus' words that He was Man even before He came down to earth and was born of Mary:
"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).
The Lord Jesus was in heaven as Man before He descended and was born of Mary.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It doesn't seem like Philippians 2 is being considered :
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:5-8
BEING in the form of God....He TOOK ON THE FORM of a servant
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, the Man Jesus took on the form of man in the sense that He put on a flesh and blood body when He was born of Mary.
The Lord Jesus' words here says that He was Man even before He came down to earth and was born of Mary:
"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).
The Lord Jesus was in heaven as Man before He descended and was born of Mary.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I will be out of touch for a week because I am leaving now to go out to west Texas for my 50th year high school reunion.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The text clearly contrasts form of God with form of man. BEING in the form of God he TOOK ON the form of a servant. Do you want to suggest that the form of God was just "superficial" (whatever that might entail)? And while I'm not a greek scholar, Strongs makes it clear that the term for fashion (schēma) goes much deeper than just the nature of the physical form.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Yep - He BECAME man...
YOU think man was not first made flesh and blood...
They say He existed before becoming man...
"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).
There you go, adding to Scripture AGAIN...
Can't RE-WRITE the Bible, Jer'...
Sorry Dear...
Why won't you tell us your church's name?
Are you ASHAMED of your church Jer'??
Arsenios
I am having trouble believing this in its plain sense--not someone like Jerry who holds Scripture in such high regard.
Is that so?
Then let's look to see what Darby says!
John Chapter 1
The first chapter asserts what He was before all things, and the different characters in which He is a blessing to man, being made flesh. He is, and He is the expression of, the whole mind that subsists in God, the Logos. In the beginning He was. If we go back as far as is possible to the mind of men, how far soever beyond all that has had a beginning, He is. This is the most perfect idea we can form historically, if I may use such an expression, of the existence of God or of eternity. “In the beginning was the Word.†Was there nothing beside Him? Impossible! Of what would He have been the Word? “The Word was with God.†That is to say, a personal existence is ascribed to Him. But, lest it may be thought that He was something which eternity implies but which the Holy Ghost comes to reveal, it is said that He “was God. †In His existence eternal-in His nature divine-in His Person distinct, He might have been spoken of as an emanation in time, as though His personality were of time, although eternal in His nature: the Spirit therefore adds, “In the beginning he was with God.†It is the revelation of the eternal Logos before all creation. This Gospel therefore really begins before Genesis. The Book of Genesis gives us the history of the world in time: John gives us that of the Word, who existed in eternity before the world was; who-when man can speak of beginning-was; and, consequently, did not begin to exist. The language of the Gospel is as plain as possible, and, like the sword of paradise, turns every way, in opposition to the thoughts and reasonings of man, to defend the divinity and personality of the Son of God.
By Him also were all things created. There are things which had a beginning; they all had their origin from Him: “All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.†Precise, positive, and absolute distinction between all that has been made and Jesus. If anything has been made, it is not the Word; for all that has been made was made by that Word.
But there is another thing, besides the supreme act of creating all things (an act that characterises the Word)-there is that which was in Him. All creation was made by Him; but it does not exist in Him. But in Him was life. In this He was in relation with an especial part of creation-a part which was the object of the thoughts and intentions of God. This “life was the light of men,†revealed itself as a testimony to the divine nature, in immediate connection with them, as it did not with respect to any others at all. (1) But, in fact, this light shone in the midst of that which was in its own nature (2) contrary to it, and evil beyond any natural image, for where light comes, darkness is no longer: but here the light came, and the darkness had no perception of it-remained darkness, which therefore neither comprehended nor received it. These are the relations of the Word with creation and with man, seen abstractedly in His nature. The Spirit pursues this subject, giving us details, historically, of the latter part.
We may remark here-and the point is of importance-how the Spirit passes from the divine and eternal nature of the Word who was before all things, to the manifestation, in this world, of the Word made flesh in the Person of Jesus. All the ways of God, the dispensations, His government of the world, are passed over in silence. In beholding Jesus on the earth we are in immediate connection with Him as existing before the world was. Only He is introduced by John, and that which is found in the world is recognised as created. John is come to bear witness of the Light. The true Light was that which, coming into the world, shone for all men, and not for the Jews only. He is come into the world; and the world, in darkness and blind, has not known Him. He is come unto His own, and His own (the Jews) have not received Him. But there were some who received Him. Of them two things are said: they have received authority to become the children (3) of God, to take their place as such; and, secondly, they are, in fact, born of God. Natural descent, and the will of man, went for nothing here.
Thus we have seen the Word, in His nature, abstractedly (John 1:1-3); and, as life, the manifestation of divine light in man, with the consequences of that manifestation (John 1:4-5); and how He was received where it was so (John 1:10-13). This general part, in regard to His nature, ends here. The Spirit carries on the history of what the Lord is, manifested as man on earth. So that, as it were, we begin again here (John 1:14) with Jesus on the earth-what the Word became, not what He was. As light in the world, there was the unanswered claim of what He was on man. Not knowing Him, or rejecting Him where He was dispensationally in relationship was the only difference. Grace in life-giving power then comes in to lead men to receive Him. The world did not know its Creator come into it as light, His own rejected their Lord. Those who were born not of man’s will but of God received Him. Thus we have not what the Word was (en), but what He became (egeneto).
The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us in the fulness of grace and truth. This is the great fact, the source of all blessing to us; (4) that which is the full expression of God, adapted, by taking man’s own nature, to all that is in man, to meet every human need, and all the capacity of the new nature in man to enjoy the expression of all in which God is suited to him. It is more than light, which is pure and shews all things; it is the expression of what God is, and God in grace, and as a source of blessing. http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dsn/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=1
The first chapter asserts what He was before all things, and the different characters in which He is a blessing to man, being made flesh. He is, and He is the expression of, the whole mind that subsists in God, the Logos. In the beginning He was. If we go back as far as is possible to the mind of men, how far soever beyond all that has had a beginning, He is. This is the most perfect idea we can form historically, if I may use such an expression, of the existence of God or of eternity. “In the beginning was the Word.†Was there nothing beside Him? Impossible! Of what would He have been the Word? “The Word was with God.†That is to say, a personal existence is ascribed to Him. But, lest it may be thought that He was something which eternity implies but which the Holy Ghost comes to reveal, it is said that He “was God. †In His existence eternal-in His nature divine-in His Person distinct, He might have been spoken of as an emanation in time, as though His personality were of time, although eternal in His nature: the Spirit therefore adds, “In the beginning he was with God.†It is the revelation of the eternal Logos before all creation. This Gospel therefore really begins before Genesis. The Book of Genesis gives us the history of the world in time: John gives us that of the Word, who existed in eternity before the world was; who-when man can speak of beginning-was; and, consequently, did not begin to exist. The language of the Gospel is as plain as possible, and, like the sword of paradise, turns every way, in opposition to the thoughts and reasonings of man, to defend the divinity and personality of the Son of God.
By Him also were all things created. There are things which had a beginning; they all had their origin from Him: “All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.†Precise, positive, and absolute distinction between all that has been made and Jesus. If anything has been made, it is not the Word; for all that has been made was made by that Word.
But there is another thing, besides the supreme act of creating all things (an act that characterises the Word)-there is that which was in Him. All creation was made by Him; but it does not exist in Him. But in Him was life. In this He was in relation with an especial part of creation-a part which was the object of the thoughts and intentions of God. This “life was the light of men,†revealed itself as a testimony to the divine nature, in immediate connection with them, as it did not with respect to any others at all. (1) But, in fact, this light shone in the midst of that which was in its own nature (2) contrary to it, and evil beyond any natural image, for where light comes, darkness is no longer: but here the light came, and the darkness had no perception of it-remained darkness, which therefore neither comprehended nor received it. These are the relations of the Word with creation and with man, seen abstractedly in His nature. The Spirit pursues this subject, giving us details, historically, of the latter part.
We may remark here-and the point is of importance-how the Spirit passes from the divine and eternal nature of the Word who was before all things, to the manifestation, in this world, of the Word made flesh in the Person of Jesus. All the ways of God, the dispensations, His government of the world, are passed over in silence. In beholding Jesus on the earth we are in immediate connection with Him as existing before the world was. Only He is introduced by John, and that which is found in the world is recognised as created. John is come to bear witness of the Light. The true Light was that which, coming into the world, shone for all men, and not for the Jews only. He is come into the world; and the world, in darkness and blind, has not known Him. He is come unto His own, and His own (the Jews) have not received Him. But there were some who received Him. Of them two things are said: they have received authority to become the children (3) of God, to take their place as such; and, secondly, they are, in fact, born of God. Natural descent, and the will of man, went for nothing here.
Thus we have seen the Word, in His nature, abstractedly (John 1:1-3); and, as life, the manifestation of divine light in man, with the consequences of that manifestation (John 1:4-5); and how He was received where it was so (John 1:10-13). This general part, in regard to His nature, ends here. The Spirit carries on the history of what the Lord is, manifested as man on earth. So that, as it were, we begin again here (John 1:14) with Jesus on the earth-what the Word became, not what He was. As light in the world, there was the unanswered claim of what He was on man. Not knowing Him, or rejecting Him where He was dispensationally in relationship was the only difference. Grace in life-giving power then comes in to lead men to receive Him. The world did not know its Creator come into it as light, His own rejected their Lord. Those who were born not of man’s will but of God received Him. Thus we have not what the Word was (en), but what He became (egeneto).
The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us in the fulness of grace and truth. This is the great fact, the source of all blessing to us; (4) that which is the full expression of God, adapted, by taking man’s own nature, to all that is in man, to meet every human need, and all the capacity of the new nature in man to enjoy the expression of all in which God is suited to him. It is more than light, which is pure and shews all things; it is the expression of what God is, and God in grace, and as a source of blessing. http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/dsn/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=1
By the way, while I am not a Dispensationalist, Darby here provides a very beautiful exegesis...
And, Jerry, when you get back, if you could address my post from some time back.
Here are the relevant portions:
and
Jerry is right to say we need to deal in a non-superficial manner with "the Son of Man" ascending and descending to where He was before passages--even the angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man in John 1:51. (And that's done in reviewing Genesis 28 and the Book of Daniel.) We just need to do that after understanding Deity became flesh and did not change in so doing.