ECT Our triune God

StanJ

New member
I am having trouble believing this in its plain sense--not someone like Jerry who holds Scripture in such high regard.

Apologies, I am guilty of piling on. I was thinking of keypurr when I wrote this. They have a similar style and when it's late at night I get sleepy and don't focus well.


Jerry is right to say we need to deal in a non-superficial manner with "the Son of Man" ascending and descending to where He was before passages--even the angels ascending and descending on the Son of Man in John 1:51. (And that's done in reviewing Genesis 28 and the Book of Daniel.) We just need to do that after understanding Deity became flesh and did not change in so doing.

We need to understand the context in which Jesus speaks EVERY time in the NT. His hypostatic nature, not being something very readily identified with by ANYONE, does make it a tad difficult to see, but to any genuous person, it comes out clear as day.
Some times He speaks as the Son of God and some times as God the WORD. Once we see that or recognize that they are the two ways He speaks, it is relatively easy to see and understand.
In the OT, The WORD was manifested in physical form in such places, as Gen 32:22-30, Gen 14:18, Gen 17:1, Gen 18:22. These are just a few examples.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
You don't understand Uncle Augie's Original Sin doctrine. Probably because you never read him.

I dont need to read him as I dont get my understanding of Original sin from him or my own oida.

I simply brought it up because you said you have reconciled all the early church fathers, yet you dismissed him with a wave of yer own oida.



And we are conceived in spiritual death, with inevitable sin and its wages of physical death.

No we are conceived in a physical body the same as Adam's.

Adam did not have the mind of Christ.



Yep. Oida. Intuitive spiritual knowledge.


Only about himself.
The natural man is made up of body soul and spirit.


1 Corinthians 2:11 KJV


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV


14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned .




Okay.........


Okay what?


Ummm... God IS a hypostasis. Hebrews is clear. The Son is the express image OF His hypostasis.

Now this is what I have agreed with all along as man's best attempt at understanding.


The hypostasis underlies the ousia and its physis, all outwardly presented by the prosopon.

Ditto. Adam the sinner is our natural hypostasis.

God doesn't "have" a hypostasis that governs His actions.

If that's what you believe then stop making statements that it was inevitable that God would create.

And that all he had to think about was himself.

You're just... out there. Not knowing the definition of hypostasis is a glaring omission in understanding. You're miles off. Parsecs, even.

Nope, you changed the goal posts.
 
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Soror1

New member
Apologies, I am guilty of piling on. I was thinking of keypurr when I wrote this. They have a similar style and when it's late at night I get sleepy and don't focus well.

Thank you for the clarification :).

We need to understand the context in which Jesus speaks EVERY time in the NT. His hypostatic nature, not being something very readily identified with by ANYONE, does make it a tad difficult to see, but to any genuous person, it comes out clear as day.
Some times He speaks as the Son of God and some times as God the WORD. Once we see that or recognize that they are the two ways He speaks, it is relatively easy to see and understand.
In the OT, The WORD was manifested in physical form in such places, as Gen 32:22-30, Gen 14:18, Gen 17:1, Gen 18:22. These are just a few examples.

Not sure about Gen 14:18 but it's bold to say Gen 17:1--that's "God Almighty"! (Typically thought to refer to God, the Father (or maybe I just let the unitarians I've talked to get away with that equation and was too lazy to check all the references for myself, LOL.) But if you trace it and look at who Jacob also said he saw at Bethel, you appear to be right. Also, the NET has this note on the Hebrew (El Shaddai):

"It is not surprising to see the name so often in this book, where the theme of God’s justice is primary and even called into question (24:1; 27:2). The most likely proposal is that the name means “God, the one of the mountain”

which adds an interesting dimension to Matt 17:1-2...
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I dont need to read him as I dont get my understanding of Original sin from him or my own oida.

Then I'd have to wonder why you even use the term "original" for as a sin doctrine.

I simply brought it up because you said you have reconciled all the early church fathers, yet you dismissed him with a wave of yer own oida.

On the contrary, I've developed the Pauline hamartiology doctrine in specific reconciliation of Augustine's fallacies. Same for his Filioque and other facets of doctrine.

No we are conceived in a physical body the same as Adam's.

You'd be arguing from silence as to whether Adam's body was identical to ours.

Adam did not have the mind of Christ.

A nebulous statement.


Only about himself.
The natural man is made up of body soul and spirit.

That's not even informative in any meaningful way.


1 Corinthians 2:11 KJV

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned .

Another nevulous point.


Okay what?

Sorta like "whatever" with a shoulder shrug.

Now this is what I have agreed with all along as man's best attempt at understanding.

No, you've been all over the board, most recently vacating God from any hypostasis.

Ditto. Adam the sinner is our natural hypostasis.

You just don't have any idea what hypostasis means. Eek.

If that's what you believe then stop making statements that it was inevitable that God would create.

LOL.

And that all he had to think about was himself.

Nothing else with uncreated eternal phenomenal existence. Get it right.

Nope, you changed the goal posts.

No. I never do that. Though it can seem so to those who don't have any understanding of certain fundamental truths.

Are you still a Unitarian of some sort? I thought you bailed on that fallacy some time ago.
 

Soror1

New member
How would you interpret my references to multi-phenomenality and uni-phenomenality? Define them, if you would please, ma'am.

This was our earlier exchange:

Me: I am trying to understand "uni-phenomenal" as you apply it to (classic) Trinitarian thought. If I am understanding aright, I would not use "uni-phenomenal" to characterize it but "mono-phenomenal" and by that I mean each hypostasis has a proper prosopon with a proper phenomenon. "Uni" implies to me that there is one, shared phenomenon but (classic) Trinitarianism wouldn't necessarily say that.

You: Uni- is my reference to traditional Theology Proper formulaics as "uni"ting eternity and everlasting without distinction that the latter is created phenomenon (though giving lip service of bare assertion otherwise).

So, no, I'm not talking about prosopon-phenomenon at all in our latest discussions.

I have been isolating the above use of "uni-phenomenality" (reference to time/creation) as concept even if you happen to have another one (reference to the ontology of God). If you do, feel free to state it here. And then can you go back and address UP (for short) as you've defined it above and my comments with reference to time/creation?
 

StanJ

New member
Not sure about Gen 14:18 but it's bold to say Gen 17:1--that's "God Almighty"! (Typically thought to refer to God, the Father (or maybe I just let the unitarians I've talked to get away with that equation and was too lazy to check all the references for myself, LOL.) But if you trace it and look at who Jacob also said he saw at Bethel, you appear to be right. Also, the NET has this note on the Hebrew (El Shaddai):
"It is not surprising to see the name so often in this book, where the theme of God’s justice is primary and even called into question (24:1; 27:2). The most likely proposal is that the name means “God, the one of the mountain”
which adds an interesting dimension to Matt 17:1-2...


Gen 14:18 find's it's explanation in Heb 7 (NIV)
IMO, from ALL the OT mentions of God, it would appear face to face meetings were a manifestation of a man and also IMO it was the likeness of Jesus but NOT the actual incarnate WORD of God as Jesus.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Then I'd have to wonder why you even use the term "original" for as a sin doctrine.


I have to have a door to enter into yer indoctrinated mind.



On the contrary, I've developed the Pauline hamartiology doctrine in specific reconciliation of Augustine's fallacies. Same for his Filioque and other facets of doctrine.

No, you have it exactly backwards.

Paul never said it was okay for the creature to ask why he was created this way.



You'd be arguing from silence as to whether Adam's body was identical to ours.

Nope, the epistles written by our brethren that were here with Christ are not silent.


A nebulous statement.

:kookoo:


That's not even informative in any meaningful way.

That's because you haven't given me the audience I've given you.
Alas you can't

Another nevulous point.

Only to those without an ear to hear.




Sorta like "whatever" with a shoulder shrug.

Come clean, you simply dont dare answer.



No, you've been all over the board, most recently vacating God from any hypostasis.

You just don't have any idea what hypostasis means. Eek.

LOL.

Nothing else with uncreated eternal phenomenal existence. Get it right.
No. I never do that. Though it can seem so to those who don't have any understanding of certain fundamental truths.

IOW I just got my butt handed to me but refuse to admit it.



Are you still a Unitarian of some sort? I thought you bailed on that fallacy some time ago.

If you had been listening you'd know better.

Unitarianism is what one naturally believes if God has not pushed one to DILLIGENTLY seek him.


EPIGNOSIS, EPIGNOSIS, EPIGNOSIS. :idea:
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Gen 14:18 find's it's explanation in Heb 7 (NIV)
IMO, from ALL the OT mentions of God, it would appear face to face meetings were a manifestation of a man and also IMO it was the likeness of Jesus but NOT the actual incarnate WORD of God as Jesus.

Likeness of Jesus not the word?

Drop the trinity confusion and it was simply Jesus as God's ambassador.

Course dont forget he was also God's son.

God sent his son as ambassador the one and only true heir.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
I have to have a door to enter into yer indoctrinated mind.

LOL. No, I left all the devices of Satan through low-context language and culture behind long ago and constantly ever since. My vehemence against the mistaken shallowness of a three-"person" God should be clear evidence of that in some manner, as should my eschewing of Dispensational tripe and many other things.

No, you have it exactly backwards.

Paul never said it was okay for the creature to ask why he was created this way.

Pre-sin sin. That's as sillyfied as the Supralapsarian nonsense of the. Hyper-Calvinists.

Nope, the epistles written by our brethren that were here with Christ are not silent.

And they don't refer to pre-sin sin.


Indeed you seem to be.

That's because you haven't given me the audience I've given you.
Alas you can't

You haven't said much to give audience to. You were amen-ing me until recently. Odd.

Only to those without an ear to hear.

I've heard and hear the Rhema.

Come clean, you simply dont dare answer.

Ummm... No. There's nothing to answer.

IOW I just got my butt handed to me but refuse to admit it.

LOL. Basically, though I wouldn't have been so condescending to you.

If you had been listening you'd know better.

Your vacillation on hypostasis made that impossible.

Unitarianism is what one naturally believes if God has not pushed one to DILLIGENTLY seek him.

Not necessarily.


EPIGNOSIS, EPIGNOSIS, EPIGNOSIS. :idea:

Yep. Gitcha some.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
This was our earlier exchange:

Me: I am trying to understand "uni-phenomenal" as you apply it to (classic) Trinitarian thought. If I am understanding aright, I would not use "uni-phenomenal" to characterize it but "mono-phenomenal" and by that I mean each hypostasis has a proper prosopon with a proper phenomenon. "Uni" implies to me that there is one, shared phenomenon but (classic) Trinitarianism wouldn't necessarily say that.

You: Uni- is my reference to traditional Theology Proper formulaics as "uni"ting eternity and everlasting without distinction that the latter is created phenomenon (though giving lip service of bare assertion otherwise).

So, no, I'm not talking about prosopon-phenomenon at all in our latest discussions.


Okay. But I'm not sure how you're inferring and utilizing the definition for either uni-phenomenal or multi-phenomenal.

I have been isolating the above use of "uni-phenomenality" (reference to time/creation) as concept even if you happen to have another one (reference to the ontology of God). If you do, feel free to state it here.

The problem is how easily one can merely assert there's a distinction in uncreated phenomenon and created phenomenon without truly and explicitly accounting for "how" created phenomenon came into existence, and God's uncreated phenomenon is somehow compatible with it.

Created phenomenon didn't just occur as another place for God to be in horizontality or linearity, and then He's just automatically multi-omni in that created phenomenon.

The crux is accounting for how creation (heaven and the cosmos) was noumenon until being given phenomenon as creation. Since creation has no innate phenomenality, and God is uncreated Self-Noumenon and Self-Phenomenon; then this is no small matter to gloss by vague generalities of bare assertion; especially while accounting for His presence in created phenomenon while also remaining utterly transcendent to created phenomenon.

God spoke to create and breathed forth all life into that creation. Over-simplified catch-all generalizations like "God is pure act with no unrealized potentiality", as profound aa they seem and are to a degree, say nothing of God as uncreated Self-Phenomenon having phenomenal presence in created phenomenon that didn't exist except as noumenon until He spoke and gave it phenomenon.

And the dilemna of God's literal immanent Logos being the Son as an eternal internally-processed individuated hypostasis is untenable and absurd, as is the proposal that His own Spirit is somehow distinct as yet another individuated hypostasis.

There's good reason that Aquinas encountered God in such a way as to declare all he'd taught and written was straw, and desisted teaching and writing thereafter without finishing the third volume of Summa Theologica.

And then can you go back and address UP (for short) as you've defined it above and my comments with reference to time/creation?

I'm prayerfully attempting how best to respond beyond what I've already said. The difficulty is always in dispelling misunderstanding and false conceptual representation from a uni-phenomenal perspective that insists it is multi-phenomenal by bare assertion.

It may need to come in question form. How did God speak created phenomenon (heaven and the cosmos) into existence (while also remaining eternally transcendent to it) and have presence in phenomenon that had been noumenon in His nous "until" He spoke and created it by His Logos? (But there's no "until" for God as if phenomenality of creation was somehow "subsequent" to His uncreated phenomenality as "after".)

It is most difficult to truly divest oneself of horizontality as linearity and spatiality to comprehend God's innate eternity, infinity, immensity, and other incommunicable attributes.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
This makes the rest of yer post nothing but tripe.:readthis:

Lol, while you've got yer butt in yer hand you might wanna get sum epignosis before yuh go showin' it again.:crackup:

We really should go back to jointly opposing the three-"person" fallacy of the Trinity as Theology Proper. I've personally valued our brotherhood and friendship too much for us to become adversarial.

I love and appreciate your insights and your testimony for Christ far too much to degrade that relationship with mud slinging at this point.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
We really should go back to jointly opposing the three-"person" fallacy of the Trinity as Theology Proper. I've personally valued our brotherhood and friendship too much for us to become adversarial.

I love and appreciate your insights and your testimony for Christ far too much to degrade that relationship with mud slinging at this point.

Okay bro.

But I'm staying within this parameter here.....

That is that the son of God has...... always known as he has been known and been loved by his Father.

And that after he delivers the kingdom back to the Father then we'll also have that.

Peace.
 
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