ECT Never the Twain

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I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
As ALWAYS, you try to force your IDEAS of what it should mean instead of simply taking it as God wrote it.

No wonder you have so many problems.
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Maybe the middle east has a lot of dead sheep because of your sheepherding technique!

I don't do made up. They are things I find doing research.

You were the guys who asked where the non-existent Jerusalem above was!!! You need to read the Bible 10x as much as you post.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Interplanner said:
Maybe the middle east has a lot of dead sheep because of your sheepherding technique!

I don't do made up. They are things I find doing research.

You were the guys who asked where the non-existent Jerusalem above was!!! You need to read the Bible 10x as much as you post.
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So you can justify MISTRANSLATING a Hebrew word with a CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS meaning?

Some "scholar" you are.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
He wanted to know how people were saved from adam to noah. I don't think some of them heard any truth about Christ or salvation until Christ preached to them as they awaited.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
heir said:
If you read the OT 1000x and believe every word, you will find all of God's promises are to Israel and will not find Gentiles like us with any hope at all apart from them.
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Was Eve an Israelite?

Was Abel, Enoch, Seth, Noah, or Abraham, Sarah, and Isaac Israelites?

Do you really want to deny that God promised these saints a Saviour, and gave them faith to believe His Gospel promises?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
heir said:
If you read the OT 1000x and believe every word, you will find all of God's promises are to Israel and will not find Gentiles like us with any hope at all apart from them.
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There are so many misconceptions here, I've never seen so many together.

1, you must not be aware of Gen 1-11. The promise of salvation is to all mankind.

2, When Gen 12 happens it continues this, with the added pictograms of a worship system and rituals and a land, until the maturity of time comes in Christ. The official declaration of Christ and Paul is that Christ was seen by Abraham, and the Gospel was announced in the promise language. The one gospel.

3, God was at work among Gentiles. But the covenant, that became Judaism, was a child trainer to direct/force people to see the need for Christ when he came. Israel got to see that first hand; it was only available to the rest by preaching, retelling. That was destiny and goal for Israel, Rom 10 (the middle).

4, the failed covenant was replaced by the eternal one, which was enacted by Christ. That means he not only did his part perfect, he was a representative for all who believe upon him. Through him, they become co-inheritors, citizens, sons in that very passage of Eph 3 you were just referring to (but not paying attention to the grammar).

5, in a sense you are right about the nations not having hope--if it meant having the old covenant. The good announcement is that it does not. Now Christ has served the purpose of God and provided the source of hope for Gentiles. But this was known from the OT. It was simply mistaken by IT Judaism to have to involve their 'keeping the law' to become reality. They made a mess of it. It's so simple; it includes Gentiles just by them having faith. That is what Eph 3 is saying and Rom 15. See the four OT passages that are quoted there; they include the Root of Jesse and its hope for the nations, Is 11.

6, not only is Eph 3 saying the inclusion of Gentiles was known, Rom 16 ends the letter by saying the same thing; the message was embedded there the whole time, but now by royal decree, God is letting people see that the Gentiles were to be included the whole time. This is the discarding of the veil, for those who are in Christ. If you are not in Christ you will not see it.

7, one of the most damaging mistakes of D'ism is this mystery mislocation. It is NOT that the gentiles would be included. It is HOW that would happen. Judaism said the LAW. Paul was resurrected by Christ to preach that it was THROUGH THE GOSPEL. That changes what all the promises were to become. The land, priesthood, worship system, etc are now all of no point.

8, the Gentiles have hope because those promises in the OT are to be applied to and realized through Christ. See Acts 13's sermon for this specifically: "I will give you (MEssiah) the promises of David". In keeping with that: 'All that was promised to the fathers is fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ.' Is 49:6-9 had already said in advance that God was going to do this new thing in a new way. That blasts the very idea of doing a 2nd round of Judaism with the worship system in Judea.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There are so many misconceptions here, I've never seen so many together.

1, you must not be aware of Gen 1-11. The promise of salvation is to all mankind.

2, When Gen 12 happens it continues this, with the added pictograms of a worship system and rituals and a land, until the maturity of time comes in Christ. The official declaration of Christ and Paul is that Christ was seen by Abraham, and the Gospel was announced in the promise language. The one gospel.

3, God was at work among Gentiles. But the covenant, that became Judaism, was a child trainer to direct/force people to see the need for Christ when he came. Israel got to see that first hand; it was only available to the rest by preaching, retelling. That was destiny and goal for Israel, Rom 10 (the middle).

4, the failed covenant was replaced by the eternal one, which was enacted by Christ. That means he not only did his part perfect, he was a representative for all who believe upon him. Through him, they become co-inheritors, citizens, sons in that very passage of Eph 3 you were just referring to (but not paying attention to the grammar).

5, in a sense you are right about the nations not having hope--if it meant having the old covenant. The good announcement is that it does not. Now Christ has served the purpose of God and provided the source of hope for Gentiles. But this was known from the OT. It was simply mistaken by IT Judaism to have to involve their 'keeping the law' to become reality. They made a mess of it. It's so simple; it includes Gentiles just by them having faith. That is what Eph 3 is saying and Rom 15. See the four OT passages that are quoted there; they include the Root of Jesse and its hope for the nations, Is 11.

6, not only is Eph 3 saying the inclusion of Gentiles was known, Rom 16 ends the letter by saying the same thing; the message was embedded there the whole time, but now by royal decree, God is letting people see that the Gentiles were to be included the whole time. This is the discarding of the veil, for those who are in Christ. If you are not in Christ you will not see it.

7, one of the most damaging mistakes of D'ism is this mystery mislocation. It is NOT that the gentiles would be included. It is HOW that would happen. Judaism said the LAW. Paul was resurrected by Christ to preach that it was THROUGH THE GOSPEL. That changes what all the promises were to become. The land, priesthood, worship system, etc are now all of no point.

8, the Gentiles have hope because those promises in the OT are to be applied to and realized through Christ. See Acts 13's sermon for this specifically: "I will give you (MEssiah) the promises of David". In keeping with that: 'All that was promised to the fathers is fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ.' Is 49:6-9 had already said in advance that God was going to do this new thing in a new way. That blasts the very idea of doing a 2nd round of Judaism with the worship system in Judea.
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Made up, as usual.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Interplanner said:
What say you Heir?
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Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
heir said:
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
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I'm more aware of the passage than you may think. You don't need to reprint something over which I have discussed the Greek grammar with professionals. Not with smugs on the internet who can't find passages in the NT about the ante-diluvians nor on the 'Jerusalem above' because apparently they read so little of the NT.

The fact is the weight of 3:6 falls on the phrase 'dia tou euangeliou' (through the Gospel). Meaning: the sharing, co-inheritance, co-citizenship happens through the Gospel, and this phrase sits exactly where Judaism would have said 'through the law.' That was a mystery TO JUDAISM but was actually embedded in the OT; so says Rom 16:26. The Gospel was there all along, but Judaism replaced Gospel with many other noble things.

If it happens through the Gospel, it changes what matters about the shadow/copy/early-illustration things of Judaism: the worship system, the rituals, the land, the temple. They shadow; the reality came in the Gospel.

Your 'exclusion' observation is only correct if the OT does not have Christ in it in a significant way. I do not accept that, and the NT makes the Christocentricity of the OT retroactive. That is the difference between Paul before and after.

The fact is 'Abraham saw Christs day'--the day of the Gospel, and believed and was credited righteousness.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
Interplanner said:
I'm more aware of the passage than you may think. You don't need to reprint something over which I have discussed the Greek grammar with professionals. Not with smugs on the internet who can't find passages in the NT about the ante-diluvians nor on the 'Jerusalem above' because apparently they read so little of the NT.

The fact is the weight of 3:6 falls on the phrase 'dia tou euangeliou' (through the Gospel). Meaning: the sharing, co-inheritance, co-citizenship happens through the Gospel, and this phrase sits exactly where Judaism would have said 'through the law.' That was a mystery TO JUDAISM but was actually embedded in the OT; so says Rom 16:26. The Gospel was there all along, but Judaism replaced Gospel with many other noble things.

If it happens through the Gospel, it changes what matters about the shadow/copy/early-illustration things of Judaism: the worship system, the rituals, the land, the temple. They shadow; the reality came in the Gospel.

Your 'exclusion' observation is only correct if the OT does not have Christ in it in a significant way. I do not accept that, and the NT makes the Christocentricity of the OT retroactive. That is the difference between Paul before and after.

The fact is 'Abraham saw Christs day'--the day of the Gospel, and believed and was credited righteousness.
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A bunch more hooey from the king of hooey.
 
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