Matthew 12:40

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jamie

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Now it came to pass when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, "You know that after two days is the Passover and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."

Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.” Matthew 26:1-5)​

So Jesus was not to be crucified during the feast which began the 15th of Nisan.

Tuesday - The disciples ask Jesus where he wants to eat the Passover.

Tuesday after dark - Jesus observed his Passover a night early because of his impending betrayal. Jesus instituted new Passover symbols and told the disciples to do this in remembrance of me.

After supper Jesus and his disciples went to Gethsemane where Jesus prayed.

Judas betrayed Jesus, he was arrested and taken to Caiaphas the high priest where the elders were assembled waiting for him.

When morning came Jesus was delivered to Pontius Pilate, the governor.

Jesus was crucified. Because of the law his body needed to be taken down before dark. As Jesus was laid in the tomb the first day of Unleavened Bread began. The first day of UB is a holy day.

Then 72 hours later Jesus was resurrected.
 
steko

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jamie said:
Now it came to pass when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, "You know that after two days is the Passover and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."

Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

But they said, “Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.” Matthew 26:1-5)​

So Jesus was not to be crucified during the feast which began the 15th of Nisan.
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'They' did not want Him to be taken and killed during the feast days, but they could not stop GOD's timing and fulfillment of the 'type/antitype' Passover lamb.

The gospel writers use Passover, Unleavened Bread, Feast, Feast of...., interchangeably.
Sometimes it's used to refer to the 14th, sometimes the 15th and sometimes for the whole 7-8 day feast period.

Tuesday - The disciples ask Jesus where he wants to eat the Passover.

Tuesday after dark - Jesus observed his Passover a night early because of his impending betrayal. Jesus instituted new Passover symbols and told the disciples to do this in remembrance of me.

After supper Jesus and his disciples went to Gethsemane where Jesus prayed.

Judas betrayed Jesus, he was arrested and taken to Caiaphas the high priest where the elders were assembled waiting for him.

When morning came Jesus was delivered to Pontius Pilate, the governor.

Jesus was crucified. Because of the law his body needed to be taken down before dark. As Jesus was laid in the tomb the first day of Unleavened Bread began. The first day of UB is a holy day.

Then 72 hours later Jesus was resurrected.
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:nono: That doesn't correspond to the plain timeline sequence at all.
It's just a force fit to make the narrative square with the 72 hour interpretation of Matt 12:40.

Herbert W. Armstrong started a total misunderstanding of the Crucifixion timeline and others have piled on, ignorantly.
He opened a veritable 'can of worms'.
 
jamie

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steko said:
I can go with that, except He was laid in the tomb before the new day commenced, according to the text. The women still had time to return and prepare spices and 'whatnot' before the Sabbath began.
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We have already covered the fact that the women bought their spices and oils after the Sabbath, prepared them and rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Do you reject this?
 
jamie

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steko said:
Herbert W. Armstrong started a total misunderstanding of the Crucifixion timeline and others have piled on, ignorantly.
He opened a veritable 'can of worms'.
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I don't know what Armstrong has to do with the discussion.

I am concerned about where you stand with the testimony of Mark and Luke.

Mark said, "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him." (Mark 16:1)

Do you believe Mark's testimony?

Luke said, "Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment."
(Luke 23:56)

Do you believe Luke's testimony?

If you reject scripture as the basis for the truth of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection there is nothing else to discuss.
 
steko

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jamie said:
I don't know what Armstrong has to do with the discussion.

I am concerned about where you stand with the testimony of Mark and Luke.

Mark said, "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him." (Mark 16:1)

Do you believe Mark's testimony?

Luke said, "Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment."
(Luke 23:56)

Do you believe Luke's testimony?

If you reject scripture as the basis for the truth of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection there is nothing else to discuss.
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Armstrong is where all this delusion started concerning a literal 72 hour period interpretation of Mt 12:40.


I believe what the scripture says.
I don't believe your interpretation of it.
 
jamie

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steko said:
Armstrong is where all this delusion started concerning a literal 72 hour period interpretation of Mt 12:40.
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Well, I'm not at all sure what Armstrong has to do with anything.

When Jesus said three days and three nights I take his words at face value and as being literal.

It's clear that you reject Mark's testimony and Luke's testimony regarding the spices and oils.

We're done.
 
steko

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jamie said:
Well, I'm not at all sure what Armstrong has to do with anything.

When Jesus said three days and three nights I take his words at face value and as being literal.

It's clear that you reject Mark's testimony and Luke's testimony regarding the spices and oils.

We're done.
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I said earlier that if Matt 12:40 is interpreted as a literal 72 hours and one will not consider that it just might be a Hebraism....a Jewish idiom, then there is nothing to discuss and all my explaining has been for nought because the conclusion is in the premise.

I'm done.

You refuse to reason.
 
R

rstrats

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steko,

re: "...and one will not consider that it just might be a Hebraism....a Jewish idiom..."

Then you'd think that there would be at least one example from the period to support that idea.
 
jamie

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And there is the possibility that Jesus meant exactly what he said. I think Jesus should at least be given the benefit of the doubt.

The thing that amazes me is Steko's insistence that the first day of Unleavened Bread is not a Sabbath. I showed him where mainstream Judaism regards the day as a Sabbath and the Jews have been observing Unleavened Bread for a long, long time.

Steko rejects the testimony of Mark, Luke, John, Matthew, Moses, and Jesus. To me that seems less than optimal.
 
intojoy

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A Jew is not a religious affiliation.
A Jew is one who is a descendant of Abraham Isaac and Israel. All Israelis are Jews.
 
Right Divider

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jamie said:
The fathers of Israel were not Jews, they were Hebrews.
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In the Bible, the word "Jew" or "Jews" is often used to refer to all the people of Israel. Like in Romans 1:16, for example.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
​
You don't think that Paul is singling out a lone tribe here, do you? Or in Romans 3:1-2?

Romans 3:1-2
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.​
There are many, many more cases just like this throughout Matthew-Revelation.
 
jamie

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Right Divider said:
In the Bible, the word "Jew" or "Jews" is often used to refer to all the people of Israel. Like in Romans 1:16, for example.
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So? Let's look at Romans 1:16.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)​

The gospel of Christ who preached the kingdom of God went first to the three tribes that made up Judah but the revelation of the NT is that salvation is available to everyone without regard to ethnicity.

Surely you are not thinking Jacob just had three sons are you?
 
genuineoriginal

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jamie said:
The date of Shavuot is directly linked to that of Passover. On Passover, the Jewish people were freed from their enslavement to Pharaoh; on Shavuot they were given the Law and became a nation committed to serving God. Shavuot is celebrated in Israel for one day and in the diaspora (outside of Israel) for two days.

Reform Jews celebrate only one day, even in the diaspora. Karaite Jews and Christians believe that Shavuot always falls on a Sunday, while mainstream Jews follow the teaching of the Talmud, which holds that the holiday commences immediately after the "counting of the omer," or 50 days after Passover. (New World Encyclopedia)​

Mainstream Jews and Messianic Jews observe Sivan 6 as Pentecost (fifthieth).

The Torah states that Pentecost is counted from the day after the Sabbath.

Based on the Talmud, mainstream Jews believe that is referring to the day after the Sabbath of Nisan 15 and Pentecost is always on Sivan 6.

Christians believe Pentecost is counted from the day after the weekly Sabbath and Pentecost is always on a Sunday. This is the way the Catholic church counts Pentecost.

He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Leviticus 23:11)​
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The Karaite Jews have it correct and Pharisaic Rabbinical Judaism has it wrong.

Shavout is always on a Sunday because of Leviticus 23:16, since that is the only way for the fiftieth day to fall on the morrow after the Sabbath.

That means that the feast of first fruits is also always on a Sunday, the day after the weekly Sabbath.
 
R

rstrats

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steko,

re: "Now, that's funny."

How so?


re: "And this is your thread?"

Indeed it is. Any particular reason for asking?
 
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