Matthew 12:40

rstrats

Active member
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?
 
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rainee

New member
I don't know about the first century but there is a Biblical example of something similar if not exactly the same kind of language:


1 Samuel 30
11 Now they found an Egyptian in the field and brought him to David, and gave him bread and he ate, and they provided him water to drink.

12 They gave him a piece of fig cake and two clusters of raisins, and he ate; then his spirit revived. For he had not eaten bread or drunk water for three days and three nights.

13 David said to him, “To whom do you belong? And where are you from?” And he said, “I am a young man of Egypt, a servant of an Amalekite; and my master left me behind when I fell sick three days ago.


In this section three days and three nights count as three days and vice versa. Which means somewhere an afternoon, evening or a morning is being counted as a whole, right?
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

When the word "day" is used it could mean a part of a day or other meanings, however when day and night is used, it means 24 hour periods of time.
 

rstrats

Active member
rainee,

re: "I don't know about the first century..."

That's ok because I also wrote: "or before".



re: "... there is a Biblical example of something similar if not exactly the same kind of language...1 Samuel 30:11-13 "

I'm afraid I don't see where those scriptures show a period of time that absolutely can't include at least a part of each one of the 3 days and at least a part of each one of the three nights.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
In the Jerusalem Talmud there is a quote by rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who lived around A.D. 100: “A day and night are an Onah [‘a portion of time’] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it” (from Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath ix. 3, as quoted in Hoehner, 1974, pp. 248-249, bracketed comment in orig.). Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same “as the whole of it.”
 

rstrats

Active member
resurrected,

re: "Never heard of them"

I wonder how it's possible that you've never heard of anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?



re: "do you have an infestation of them where you live?"

Yes, they are all over the place.
 

rstrats

Active member
steko,

re: "Azariah was referring to that a portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered the same 'as the whole of it.'”


As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "x" days AND "x" nights it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night" refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase "x" days AND "x" nightswas a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which had to mean something different than what the phrase means in English.. If you have such documentation, I would very much like to see it.
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Matt 20:6-14
6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day?'
7 "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.'
8 "So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.'
9 "And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
10 "But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11 "And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
12 "saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 'Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
(NKJ)
 

rstrats

Active member
Squeaky,

I don't see where your post shows a phrase stating a certain number of days, and or a certain number of nights where it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
rstrats, I'm curious as to why a Jewish idiom would make any difference one way or another? Where are you going with this, maybe I can help you.
 
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JosephR

New member
They will not give up there pagan holidays and traditions so matter how you slice it. they will say good friday to easter sunday... even tho at best thats 2 days.. At least they agree he didnt work on this sabbath :)
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone has documentation that shows that a phrase stating a certain number of days, as well as a certain number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely didn’t include at least parts of the specified number of days and at least parts of the specified number of nights?

There are some people that are so hung up in counting the minutes that Jesus was dead and buried that they have Him dying in the afternoon of the fourth day of the week and rising in the afternoon of the seventh day of the week.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
There are some people that are so hung up in counting the minutes that Jesus was dead and buried that they have Him dying in the afternoon of the fourth day of the week and rising in the afternoon of the seventh day of the week.

The sign Jesus gave that he was the Messiah is that he would be buried for three days and three nights, not how long he would be dead.

Jesus died on Nisan 14, 30 CE. Just as he was placed in the tomb a Sabbath began.

This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation and the sabbath was beginning.
(Luke 23:52-54 RSV)​

Jesus said he would be buried for three day and three nights. The Sabbath that began as he was placed in the tomb was the first annual Sabbath of the seven day Passover season.

Jesus was resurrected as the first day of the weeks leading to Pentecost began, which was the beginning of Sunday. Backtracking from his resurrection we have Saturday, Friday, and Thursday for the three days meaning Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon, Nisan 14, 30 CE.

Jesus was placed in his tomb as Thursday, Nisan 15 began. He was in the tomb the evening and the day of Thursday, the evening and the day of Friday, and the evening and the day of Saturday and at sunset on Saturday he was resurrected as Sunday began. He was raised on the first day of the week and seven weeks and one day later was the Pentecost of 30 CE recorded in Acts.
 

rstrats

Active member
jamie,

re: " Where are you going with this..."

For the purpose of this topic I'm not going any place with it. I simply would like to see the writing requested in the OP.

I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.
I am amazed at how you found a way for Jesus to be crucified two days before He said He would be crucified and raised one day before He said He would be raised.


Luke 24:7
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.​



Luke 24:21
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.​



Luke 24:46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:​

 

rstrats

Active member
genuineoriginal,

re: "I am amazed at how you found a way for Jesus to be crucified two days before He said He would be crucified and raised one day before He said He would be raised."

You quoted my comment, but I don't see what your comment has to do with it. I wonder if you might explain?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I should have addressed the OP to those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom where 3 nights actually means 2 nights.

Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground. As he was buried a Sabbath began.
 
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steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Ok, but the actual sign was how long he would be in the ground. As he was buried a Sabbath began. The women came to the tomb before sunrise so if he was crucified on a Friday he would only have been in the ground one night and no days.

There is no way, but have fun.

The actual sign would be His greatest miracle, 'rising from the dead'.
The LORD rose 'on' the third day, as He said He would, not 'on' the fourth day.
He was not crucified on the 14th, but on the 15th. He ate the passover with His disciples after sundown of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th according to GOD's appointed times for Israel. He was crucified the next morning, still the 15th.
 
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