Matthew 12:40

[1Mind1Spirit]

Are you saying that these don't appear to harmonize?

They do!

Yes they do.:thumb:

No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.
Even if I believed her that the first day of unleavened bread were added to both scriptures,(which i dont) Now I would have to believe that both these verses need to be erased, if I am to believe her about the disciples not knowing about Jesus' supposed new passover plan.
Hence :wazzup:

 

[jamie]

Yes they do.:thumb:

No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.
Even if I believed her that the first day of unleavened bread were added to both scriptures,(which i dont) Now I would have to believe that both these verses need to be erased, if I am to believe her about the disciples not knowing about Jesus' supposed new passover plan.

The words in italics are italicized to inform the reader that those words were added by the translators and are not in the Greek texts. The added words were intended to help but sometimes they hinder.

Steko may be able to verify this for you, I don't know. If not you can ask TOL in the form of a new thread.

At any rate the Passover is not killed on one of the actual seven days of Unleavened Bread.

 

[steko]

You skipped my question.



So are you saying that in a figurative sense a new day dawned as Jesus was laid in the tomb?

I didn't skip it intentionally. It sometimes takes me hours to write this stuff thus it takes awhile to get around to all of your questions.
I feel like you ignore most of my answers and I'm beginning to get weary of all of this, since it's going nowhere, and I've only argued this subject a hundred times over the last thirty-five years.

I'm agreeing with the text which states that says that Christ was taken down and laid in the tomb just before the 'shining forth' of the Sabbath. It clearly states that it took place on the day which was the paraskeue of the Sabbath.

The 'shining forth' is signifying the lighting of lamps in the homes which they all were required to do and could not be done once the Sabbath had commenced.




Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Epiphosko is translated dawn in Matthew 28:1.

Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn... (Matthew 28:1)

So is it possible that epiphosko can mean dawn?

The 'shining forth' in Mat 28:1 is the 'shining forth' of the sun as the new day began.

'phosko' has to do with 'light', whatever the source.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned (epiphosko).

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)​

The word "beginning" is epiphosko.

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

You are way confused.
He was laid in the tomb the afternoon of his crucifixion, the sabbath started that evening.
Why would you think the verse about the women visiting the tomb on Sunday has anything to do with the day he was buried.
I might see where you would be confused if you have a verse stating that passover is a Sabbath.
Do You?

 

[steko]

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned (epiphosko).

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)​

The word "beginning" is epiphosko.

So he was not in the tomb on the day he died.

He had to be laid in the tomb on the day He died because it was the paraskeue of the Sabbath and they couldn't do anything with His body after sundown.

epiphosko is translated 'beginning' but it is literally a 'shining forth' having to do with light. That's what phosko is.....light.

 

[jamie]

No I was pointing out she was confusing me as to whether or not the disciples knew Jesus' plan to start a new passover.

Although Jesus made it clear that he would die the disciples were reluctant to believe he had been resurrected.

It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles. And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them. (Luke 24:10-11)​

 

[jamie]

epiphosko is translated 'beginning' but it is literally a 'shining forth' having to do with light. That's what phosko is.....light.

The word means dawn literally or figuratively.

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned in a figurative sense.

 

[jamie]

He had to be laid in the tomb on the day He died because it was the paraskeue of the Sabbath and they couldn't do anything with His body after sundown.

You never provided the verse that identifies Preparation Day as the sixth day.

 

[jamie]

You are way confused.
He was laid in the tomb the afternoon of his crucifixion, the sabbath started that evening.
Why would you think the verse about the women visiting the tomb on Sunday has anything to do with the day he was buried.
I might see where you would be confused if you have a verse stating that passover is a Sabbath.
Do You?

There are two annual Sabbaths and one weekly Sabbath during Passover.

 

[steko]

The word means dawn literally or figuratively.

As Jesus was laid in the tomb a new day dawned in a figurative sense.

I can go with that, except He was laid in the tomb before the new day commenced, according to the text. The women still had time to return and prepare spices and 'whatnot' before the Sabbath began.

 

[jamie]

I'm agreeing with the text which states that says that Christ was taken down and laid in the tomb just before the 'shining forth' of the Sabbath.

There's the problem, before is not in the text.

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. (Luke 23:54 KJV)​

To draw on means the Sabbath came on, it began. A new day dawned. Sure it's archaic language but it is easily understood.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

There are two annual Sabbaths and one weekly Sabbath during Passover.

Show me that verse please?

 

[steko]

There's the problem, before is not in the text.

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. (Luke 23:54 KJV)​

To draw on means the Sabbath came on, it began. A new day dawned. Sure it's archaic language but it is easily understood.

No. The 'day' was the 'preparation' before the Sabbath.

It is in the text.

 

[steko]

You never provided the verse that identifies Preparation Day as the sixth day.

It's mathematical logic.
I spent an hour laying out the text and demonstrating how to count from the first day backwards to the fourteenth when they killed the lambs.

The onus is now on you to show me in the text where there is more than 1st day, 7th day, 6th day and 5th day.

The timeline places the crucifixion squarely on the sixth day.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Let us say Passover occurred on Saturday.:think:

Now we have to make Matt, Mark, & Luke agree with John.

I know about italics, so lets leave these out.
day of the feast

Matt 26
17 Now the first [/U][/U][/U][/U] of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?


Mark 14:12 KJV
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7 KJV
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed .


To me it's not a far stretch that Hebrew writers over kill on clarifying.
Unleavened bread? okay Which unleavened bread? Just so yuh know for sure what I am sayin, the unleavened bread when we kill the passover.
So matt, mark, luke could be talkin bout what jamie said, merely the cleaning of leaven and preparing a place where they would eat the actual passover the next night.
This cleaning of the leaven was evening nisan 13 to evening nisan 14.
So the disciples and Christ had a meal but it was not the passover meal.
John on the other hand is talking about the actual preparation day(slaughtering the lamb) evening 14 to evening 15.
And the actual first day of unleavened bread which is passover was evening 15 to evening 16.
This happened to fall on a sabbath that year.
I might add that both yall have been around here long enough to know this, so i aint really buyin all of the subterfuge.:cigar:
or maybe I'm just paranoid, lol

 

[jamie]

Show me that verse please?

Ok. Now we need to realize that Passover was a seven day festival during which unleavened bread is eaten.

In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. (Ezekiel 45:21)

These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD’s Passover.

And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD, seven days you must eat unleavened bread.

On the first day you shall have a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD for seven days.

The seventh day shall be a holy convocation, you shall do no customary work on it. (Leviticus 23:4-8)​

The Feast of Unleavened Bread is the 15th through the 21st each year during the first month of the Hebrew calendar with the first and seventh days being Sabbaths.

The term holy convocation means a sacred assembly during which no customary work may be done such as a merchant selling spices and fragrant oils, or anything else. It is a Sabbath. Shops are closed.

 

[jamie]

I can go with that, except He was laid in the tomb before the new day commenced, according to the text. The women still had time to return and prepare spices and 'whatnot' before the Sabbath began.

We have already covered the fact that the women bought their spices and oils after the Sabbath, prepared them and rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Do you reject this?

 

[steko]

We have already covered the fact that the women bought their spices and oils after the Sabbath, prepared them and rested on the weekly Sabbath.

Do you reject this?

I never agreed that there are two Sabbaths mentioned in the narratives.
Every time the word Sabbath is used in all four gospels, it is used in reference to the weekly seventh day Sabbath.

You have to arbitrarily put in another Sabbath because of you insistence of 72 hours.

You still haven't shown me an extra day in the chronological timeline besides 1st day, 7th day, 6th day and 5th day.

The text plainly shows:

1st day-risen
7th day-in tomb
6th day-crucified
5th day-lambs were killed

 

[jamie]

I never agreed that there are two Sabbaths mentioned in the narratives.
Every time the word Sabbath is used in all four gospels, it is used in reference to the weekly seventh day Sabbath.

The date of Shavuot is directly linked to that of Passover. On Passover, the Jewish people were freed from their enslavement to Pharaoh; on Shavuot they were given the Law and became a nation committed to serving God. Shavuot is celebrated in Israel for one day and in the diaspora (outside of Israel) for two days.

Reform Jews celebrate only one day, even in the diaspora. Karaite Jews and Christians believe that Shavuot always falls on a Sunday, while mainstream Jews follow the teaching of the Talmud, which holds that the holiday commences immediately after the "counting of the omer," or 50 days after Passover. (New World Encyclopedia)​

Mainstream Jews and Messianic Jews observe Sivan 6 as Pentecost (fifthieth).

The Torah states that Pentecost is counted from the day after the Sabbath.

Based on the Talmud, mainstream Jews believe that is referring to the day after the Sabbath of Nisan 15 and Pentecost is always on Sivan 6.

Christians believe Pentecost is counted from the day after the weekly Sabbath and Pentecost is always on a Sunday. This is the way the Catholic church counts Pentecost.

He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Leviticus 23:11)​

 

[steko]

The date of Shavuot is directly linked to that of Passover. On Passover, the Jewish people were freed from their enslavement to Pharaoh; on Shavuot they were given the Law and became a nation committed to serving God. Shavuot is celebrated in Israel for one day and in the diaspora (outside of Israel) for two days.

Reform Jews celebrate only one day, even in the diaspora. Karaite Jews and Christians believe that Shavuot always falls on a Sunday, while mainstream Jews follow the teaching of the Talmud, which holds that the holiday commences immediately after the "counting of the omer," or 50 days after Passover. (New World Encyclopedia)​

Mainstream Jews and Messianic Jews observe Sivan 6 as Pentecost (fifthieth).

The Torah states that Pentecost is counted from the day after the Sabbath.

Based on the Talmud, mainstream Jews believe that is referring to the day after the Sabbath of Nisan 15 and Pentecost is always on Sivan 6.

Christians believe Pentecost is counted from the day after the weekly Sabbath and Pentecost is always on a Sunday. This is the way the Catholic church counts Pentecost.

He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Leviticus 23:11)​

Yeah, I know all that.

Show me the extra day or days in the chronological timelines of Matthew, Mark and Luke.


MARK


DAY TIME 14th:

Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

NIGHT TIME 15th:

Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat,

DAY TIME 15TH:

Mar 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,


Mar 15:45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
Mar 15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
Mar 15:47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.




NIGHT TIME/DAY TIME 16TH

Sabbath

DAY TIME 17TH:

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoin
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LUKE


DAY TIME 14TH:

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.


NIGHT TIME 15TH:

Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:


DAY TIME 15TH:


Luk 23:1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;




NIGHT TIME/DAY TIME 16TH:

Luk 23:56 .................... and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


DAY TIME 17TH:


Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.


In the recorded timeline you have:

Daylight 14th (when the lambs are killed)

Night 15th (when the passover is eaten)
Daylight 15th (Jesus crucified and buried, preparation for Sabbath)

Night/Daylight 16th (the Sabbath)

Daylight 17th (morning 1st day of week resurrection)



THAT'S ALL THERE IS.

SHOW ME, IN THE TEXT, ANOTHER NIGHT, MORNING OR DAY!


ALL THE SOPHISTICATED ARGUMENTS CANNOT NULLIFY WHAT THE TEXT PLAINLY DEMONSTRATES.