ECT madists and their gnostic gospel

[andyc]

I've done a thread like this before a long long time ago, and I'd never find it now, so I'll try and get the point over again.
It's time to psycho analyse the madists and their gospel.

To those who have become well acquainted with mad, what it teaches, and the people behind the message, you find out quickly that madists are paranoid about anything do with works (like Maynard G Krebbs from Dobie Gillis). You mention words like "work", "repentance" etc, and they freak out. To Christians who are not of the mad persuasion, it's easy to be confused how people can major so much in a message of grace, and yet be so graceless in their mannerisms. Right?

And so in this thread you're going to understand why this is, and how they really interpret grace, and why they're on a witch hunt for anyone mentioning anything about work, repentance, baptism, going to church, godliness, holiness etc

It all starts in the garden of Eden. God created Adam as a flesh being from the dust of the ground, and created him to have dominion over the natural physical earth. Man was subject to nothing and no one, except for one word of warning, to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As long as Adam and Eve abstain from the forbidden fruit, they could live a life pleasing themselves (the flesh life). God originally created us to please ourselves. Until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would be unable to be a slave to either. Adam was morally neutral, and therefore the fleshly man was free from moral obligation. There was nothing to rebel against, because there was no law in existence.

This is the madist interpretation of what it's like to be free from the law. It's not a freedom as a result of spiritual birth/regeneration, but rather they see it as a freedom from moral obligation, in order to neutralise the rebellious nature of the flesh.
It is human nature to rebel against moral restraint, hence the reason why the carnal mind is enmity with God.
And so if any kind of moral restraint is placed upon the flesh, the natural response is to lash out against it. This is why the law is contrary to us, because the commandments are spiritual, but man is natural/carnal.

Here's the problem. How can people be free to do what is right, without feeling condemned for having a nature that rebels against what is right?

What is the victory over the flesh / over the world?


1) Remove all forms of moral obligation in order to pacify the fleshly man with it's carnal appetites (mid acts dispensationalism / gnosticism).
2) Walk in the Spirit (Christianity)

You NEVER EVER hear madists talk about walking in the Spirit. You know why? Because they don't know what it means.
Walking in the Spirit is just a meaningless religious cliche to them. But if we relate to God in the Spirit through spiritual birth as sons, the law which was directed towards the natural man is rendered powerless. The nature of the Spirit is to be slaves of righteousness and hate what is wrong, but if people don't live in the Spirit, that nature doesn't exist.

Therefore, let's take something like water baptism for example, why do maddists hate it so much?
Because the bible supposedly says it's not for today? Of course not.
If they're in the flesh, water baptism is an obligation, and the flesh rebels against it by nature.

And so their interpretation of grace is the removal of all moral restraint upon the carnal man in order to try and pacify the flesh.
This is what they understand when they talk about the law being abolished. You can't rebel against a moral code that no longer exists - grace supposedly. You can't commit a sin act if there is no commandment to break. The flesh is free to please self, like Adam in the garden. But without being born again, they can't please God by walking in the Spirit.
This is also why they hate anything to do with faith, and all the gifts of the Spirit. A lot of evangelicals are cessationists because of their interpretation of scripture, but madists have an inner hatred against the gifts of the Spirit because people are obligated to seek the Lord and the gifts, which is not a problem if you walk in the Spirit, but impossible if you're in the flesh. So they lash out against it.

Once again I've blown the lid off mad so you can see their gnostic gospel, which is salvation by knowledge alone, that God has abolished the law so that you can please yourself. Then they remove most of the new testament because of those nasty verses telling us that we are obligated (BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT) to live godly lives and be holy.

 

[Faither]

I've done a thread like this before a long long time ago, and I'd never find it now, so I'll try and get the point over again.
It's time to psycho analyse the madists and their gospel.

To those who have become well acquainted with mad, what it teaches, and the people behind the message, you find out quickly that madists are paranoid about anything do with works (like Maynard G Krebbs from Dobie Gillis). You mention words like "work", "repentance" etc, and they freak out. To Christians who are not of the mad persuasion, it's easy to be confused how people can major so much in a message of grace, and yet be so graceless in their mannerisms. Right?

And so in this thread you're going to understand why this is, and how they really interpret grace, and why they're on a witch hunt for anyone mentioning anything about work, repentance, baptism, going to church, godliness, holiness etc

It all starts in the garden of Eden. God created Adam as a flesh being from the dust of the ground, and created him to have dominion over the natural physical earth. Man was subject to nothing and no one, except for one word of warning, to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As long as Adam and Eve abstain from the forbidden fruit, they could live a life pleasing themselves (the flesh life). God originally created us to please ourselves. Until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would be unable to be a slave to either. Adam was morally neutral, and therefore the fleshly man was free from moral obligation. There was nothing to rebel against, because there was no law in existence.

This is the madist interpretation of what it's like to be free from the law. It's not a freedom as a result of spiritual birth/regeneration, but rather they see it as a freedom from moral obligation, in order to neutralise the rebellious nature of the flesh.
It is human nature to rebel against moral restraint, hence the reason why the carnal mind is enmity with God.
And so if any kind of moral restraint is placed upon the flesh, the natural response is to lash out against it. This is why the law is contrary to us, because the commandments are spiritual, but man is natural/carnal.

Here's the problem. How can people be free to do what is right, without feeling condemned for having a nature that rebels against what is right?

What is the victory over the flesh / over the world?


1) Remove all forms of moral obligation in order to pacify the fleshly man with it's carnal appetites (mid acts dispensationalism / gnosticism).
2) Walk in the Spirit (Christianity)

You NEVER EVER hear madists talk about walking in the Spirit. You know why? Because they don't know what it means.
Walking in the Spirit is just a meaningless religious cliche to them. But if we relate to God in the Spirit through spiritual birth as sons, the law which was directed towards the natural man is rendered powerless. The nature of the Spirit is to be slaves of righteousness and hate what is wrong, but if people don't live in the Spirit, that nature doesn't exist.

Therefore, let's take something like water baptism for example, why do maddists hate it so much?
Because the bible supposedly says it's not for today? Of course not.
If they're in the flesh, water baptism is an obligation, and the flesh rebels against it by nature.

And so their interpretation of grace is the removal of all moral restraint upon the carnal man in order to try and pacify the flesh.
This is what they understand when they talk about the law being abolished. You can't rebel against a moral code that no longer exists - grace supposedly. You can't commit a sin act if there is no commandment to break. The flesh is free to please self, like Adam in the garden. But without being born again, they can't please God by walking in the Spirit.
This is also why they hate anything to do with faith, and all the gifts of the Spirit. A lot of evangelicals are cessationists because of their interpretation of scripture, but madists have an inner hatred against the gifts of the Spirit because people are obligated to seek the Lord and the gifts, which is not a problem if you walk in the Spirit, but impossible if you're in the flesh. So they lash out against it.

Once again I've blown the lid off mad so you can see their gnostic gospel, which is salvation by knowledge alone, that God has abolished the law so that you can please yourself. Then they remove most of the new testament because of those nasty verses telling us that we are obligated (BY WALKING IN THE SPIRIT) to live godly lives and be holy.

I don't agree they are Gnostic , I see them as agnostics. An agnostic doesn't stand on anything . They will throw every thing under the sun at you because you have establish a place where you stand on something , so you are an easy target . They on the other hand never stand on anything , their always moving so you can never pin their understandings or them down . The best i've been able to do is corner them and hold the truth in their faces , about an inch away . They all do the same thing at that point which is the personal attacks .

 

[andyc]

The reason why I compare it to gnosticism is because the mad interpretation of the gospel is a mystery given to Paul, which became confused for hundreds of years of Christendom until recently when all of a sudden enlightened people started understanding the mystery again. Whether they agree or not, they regard themselves as a privileged bunch who alone understand the hidden knowledge of Paul's mystery gospel, that the mainstream church do not understand.
There is supposedly salvation to be gained by simply agreeing with this dispie knowledge.

 

[glorydaz]

Totally ridiculous nonsense. The only ones who will swallow this story are those who don't understand what the Cross accomplished for mankind....those who keep trying to mix law and grace. You don't even need to be MAD to see the differences, but you can't bring yourself to admit them. Your loss.

 

[way 2 go]

It's time to psycho analyse the madists and their gospel.

Until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would be unable to be a slave to either. Adam was morally neutral, and therefore the fleshly man was free from moral obligation. There was nothing to rebel against, because there was no law in existence.

This is the madist interpretation of what it's like to be free from the law.

how does the woman commit adultery when her husband is dead ?

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Faither]

I don't agree they are Gnostic , I see them as agnostics. An agnostic doesn't stand on anything . They will throw every thing under the sun at you because you have establish a place where you stand on something , so you are an easy target . They on the other hand never stand on anything , their always moving so you can never pin their understandings or them down . The best i've been able to do is corner them and hold the truth in their faces , about an inch away . They all do the same thing at that point which is the personal attacks .

It really makes no difference Mad or non Mad their both the same where it counts . Both Salvations are built on solely " believing " in Gods Word . Solely "believing " in Gods Word will never result in being in Christ . So it really doesn't matter what Scripture either stands on , it not theirs to claim yet . Until both sides deal with that issue theres nothing to talk about .

 

[Tambora]

I've done a thread like this before a long long time ago, and I'd never find it now, so I'll try and get the point over again.
It's time to psycho analyse the madists and their gospel.

To those who have become well acquainted with mad, what it teaches, and the people behind the message, you find out quickly that madists are paranoid about anything do with works (like Maynard G Krebbs from Dobie Gillis). You mention words like "work", "repentance" etc, and they freak out. To Christians who are not of the mad persuasion, it's easy to be confused how people can major so much in a message of grace, and yet be so graceless in their mannerisms. Right?

Wanna clue folks in on how the above of you purposely misrepresenting what MAD does is showing grace and manners?

We discuss works all the time.
Mostly with those that are uninformed that it is not their obedience and righteousness that saves, but the obedience and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18-19

And we talk about repenting also.
Mostly with those that use the word incorrectly by insisting that "repented" means "stopped sinning".

So there goes that lousy argument of yours.
And that's just for starters.

 

[glorydaz]

It really makes no difference Mad or non Mad their both the same where it counts . Both Salvations are built on solely " believing " in Gods Word . Solely "believing " in Gods Word will never result in being in Christ . So it really doesn't matter what Scripture either stands on , it not theirs to claim yet . Until both sides deal with that issue theres nothing to talk about .

Believing is faith. That you keep denying that doesn't make it so.

 

[God's Truth]

Wanna clue folks in on how the above of you purposely misrepresenting what MAD does is showing grace and manners?

We discuss works all the time.
Mostly with those that are uninformed that it is not their obedience and righteousness that saves, but the obedience and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18-19

And we talk about repenting also.
Mostly with those that use the word incorrectly by insisting that "repented" means "stopped sinning".

So there goes that lousy argument of yours.
And that's just for starters.

Those who believe in Jesus' words being life, they know we have to repent of our sins.

I would like to hear what a madist has given up for Christ. I would like to hear the things that madists do which Jesus says himself or through Paul.

 

[God's Truth]

Believing is faith. That you keep denying that doesn't make it so.

Faith alone is dead. That is what James says.
What can something dead do?

 

[glorydaz]

Faith alone is dead. That is what James says.
What can something dead do?

Since you have no clue what James was actually saying there, I have no need to listen to your same old broken record. Push rewind and vomit it out again for someone who might care.

 

[way 2 go]

Faith alone is dead. That is what James says.
What can something dead do?

having died we are released from the law

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive


Paul says "the one who does not work but believes" "his faith is counted as righteousness,"

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

 

[God's Truth]

having died we are released from the law

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive

Paul is speaking about the Jews who were under the law.

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

Paul says "the one who does not work but believes" "his faith is counted as righteousness,"

...because the old law had the works of the law called the ceremonial/purification works that the Jews used to have to do to justify themselves. No one has to do those things to clean themselves anymore because faith that Jesus' blood cleans us is what cleans us.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Paul is speaking about the works to make one clean like CIRCUMCISION and sacrificing animals. Read what Paul says about the work he is speaking of when he speaks of Abraham---Paul is speaking about circumcision.

Romans 4:10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!


Are you starting to see it now?

 

[God's Truth]

Paul does not tell anyone that they are saved by faith and not obeying.

Peter heard of the misunderstanding people were having about Paul's teachings...Peter says unstable and ignorant people misunderstand...and then Peter WARNS US TO OBEY. See all of 2 Peter 3, and 2 Peter 3:16, and 17.

James hears about the people misunderstanding Paul, too, and James calls the people foolish, and then he goes into deep explanations about how faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. See James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24. James even says even demons believe and do something, they shudder. See James 2:19.

Do the faith alone people really want to teach that Jesus' life giving words are not for everyone but only for the Jews, and that Paul taught another gospel? Do you really want to teach that the apostles to the Lamb, Peter and James go against a special new gospel given to Paul from Jesus?

Is that craziness acceptable to you, really?

 

[God's Truth]

The Jews had the law and in the law there were works of the law that is called the ceremonial/purification works.

This is an outline of those ceremonial/purification works:

The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


The priest had to offer a lamb to sacrifice every morning and at twilight.

Exodus 29:38 “This is what you are to offer on the altar regularly each day: two lambs a year old. 39 Offer one in the morning and the other at twilight. 40 With the first lamb offer a tenth of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of oil from pressed olives, and a quarter of a hin of wine as a drink offering. 41 Sacrifice the other lamb at twilight with the same grain offering and its drink offering as in the morning—a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the Lord.

42 “For the generations to come this burnt offering is to be made regularly at the entrance to the tent of meeting, before the Lord. There I will meet you and speak to you;


Did you read in the Works outline that I gave that it speaks of various external washings?
Can you image being unclean for sitting where someone who had a bodily discharge sat and you have to do special washings before you could partake in the feasts and also go to the temple to be near God's Spirit?



Now imagine the Gentiles who did not come into that covenant with God. They were called DEAD in the SINS and UNCLEAN people, they were enemies of God.


Now imagine Jesus coming, the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. His shed blood on the cross does that. His blood cleans you and you no longer have to do all those works of the law anymore; and, if you are an unclean disobedient Gentile, then you can be made clean to, but there is something all must do to receive this grace from God---you only have to have faith that Jesus' blood does that. We have to have faith that Jesus' blood washes away all the sins we repent of doing.

That is what Paul is speaking of when he says faith and not of works.

Paul is NOT saying faith and no obedience to get saved.

We still have to obey God! We just don't have to get circumcised and adhere to a special diet and do various external washings and sacrifice animals. But we still have to abstain from evil and do right!

Faith alone is a false doctrine and it hinders people from knowing God.

 

[andyc]

how does the woman commit adultery when her husband is dead ?

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

When Adam took the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, it was an attempt to be like God while being a flesh person. To know good and evil, is to choose one or the other. The law is a document which defines right and wrong. This law is spiritual, and not intended to be directed towards carnal man. And so when Paul is talking about us being released from the law, he's talking about God relating to us in Spirit. If God relates to us according to the Spirit, the demands of the law upon the natural man lose relevance.

This is why Romans 7 leads on to Romans 8, and how victory over bondage to the flesh which is empowered by the law, is accomplished by identifying who we are in Spirit, and walking in it by faith.

Ye must be born again. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit. As we have born the image of the earthly man, because we've been carnal and in bondage to the lusts of the flesh empowered by law, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man, who is a spiritual man who is spiritually righteous by nature, not by legal obligation.

Christians who are following this, and disagree with mad, can you see where the madists do not understand walking in the Spirit?

Masists don't know what being born again means, and they reject what the bible teaches about it. This makes them extremely cultish, so don't be taken in by them.

 

[God's Truth]

This is why Romans 7 leads on to Romans 8, and how victory over bondage to the flesh which is empowered by the law, is accomplished by identifying who we are in Spirit, and walking in it by faith.

Ye must be born again. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit. As we have born the image of the earthly man, because we've been carnal and in bondage to the lusts of the flesh empowered by law, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man, who is a spiritual man who is spiritually righteous by nature, not by legal obligation.

Christians who are following this, and disagree with mad, can you see where the madists do not understand walking in the Spirit?

Masists don't know what being born again means, and they reject what the bible teaches about it. This makes them extremely cultish, so don't be taken in by them.

What you said is excellent and true.

 

[glorydaz]

When Adam took the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, it was an attempt to be like God while being a flesh person. To know good and evil, is to choose one or the other. The law is a document which defines right and wrong. This law is spiritual, and not intended to be directed towards carnal man. And so when Paul is talking about us being released from the law, he's talking about God relating to us in Spirit. If God relates to us according to the Spirit, the demands of the law upon the natural man lose relevance.

This is why Romans 7 leads on to Romans 8, and how victory over bondage to the flesh which is empowered by the law, is accomplished by identifying who we are in Spirit, and walking in it by faith.

Ye must be born again. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit. As we have born the image of the earthly man, because we've been carnal and in bondage to the lusts of the flesh empowered by law, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly man, who is a spiritual man who is spiritually righteous by nature, not by legal obligation.

Christians who are following this, and disagree with mad, can you see where the madists do not understand walking in the Spirit?

Masists don't know what being born again means, and they reject what the bible teaches about it. This makes them extremely cultish, so don't be taken in by them.

I guess it never dawned on you that we don't need to boast about "walking in the Spirit", because we understand boasting is excluded by the law of faith. We're quite confident being members of the body of Christ...seated with Him in heavenly places. Is it the lack of charismatic theatrics you think we're missing?

I spent most of my life as a believer never even having heard the term MAD. I understood the dispensation of Grace but didn't know the particulars of why things changed from the Gospels to Paul's letters. And, in all those years prior to hearing of mad, we didn't talk about "walking in the Spirit"....it was walking by faith.

Your premise is flawed. Period.

 

[glorydaz]

What you said is excellent and true.

:chuckle:

 

[andyc]

Wanna clue folks in on how the above of you purposely misrepresenting what MAD does is showing grace and manners?

We discuss works all the time.
Mostly with those that are uninformed that it is not their obedience and righteousness that saves, but the obedience and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18-19

This proves what I'm saying is true. What this person is saying is, "I want the freedom to be carnal, and so I'll boast in Christ's works to feel better about being powerless in the flesh".

The works of the law are not not directed towards the spiritual man, but the madist is trying to explain that the works of the law are not for the natural man. Yes they are.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

And so if a person walks according to the flesh, condemnation remains. And condmnation is empowered by the law.

The madist answer is that the law no longer exists, and so the carnal man is free from righteous obligation.... man can now please himself, and use a perverted gospel to feel good about it.

And we talk about repenting also.
Mostly with those that use the word incorrectly by insisting that "repented" means "stopped sinning".

So there goes that lousy argument of yours.
And that's just for starters.

You've reinforced everything I said. And btw, repentance simply means 'change'.