Justified by Faith Means Justified by Christ

[clefty]

Haven't yet, and I've been saved a long long time.

oh?

I live by the faith of the Son of God. How do you live?

same...is why I am so surprised your faith doesnt include good works...but then I see your reasoning

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

that faith is lawless then is it?

My faith compels rest and trust in the Lord....who performs His work in me.

rest and trust no obedience? He is not working in you to follow Him His way? What work is that then?

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

to be more like your former self or the world or?

Ha, you're the only one I see here who is obsessed with stealing, murder, and lying. :chuckle:

you haven’t answered...how about the rest of the list? But I know which one really sets it all off...most christians readily accept they are to keep the commandments...that your works may glorify...etc etc...

The law was never intended to make men righteous. Why do you think it will do so after we come to the Lord Jesus Christ?

dont think that at all? Only He does that...saved and loving Him His want to follow Him...they WANT to obey...quite simple actually...you fall in love you wish to please...even the pagans do that

Faith and works were required of all those under the law. Grace is a whole new thing. It was a mystery revealed to Paul....and it seems to still be a mystery to you.

Tell it to James...he said otherwise...in fact he asks if faith alone can save...2:14

Paul understood that and is why he said we establish law...wherever we go

He took a vow even to prove he still kept the law...but yours would have him teach one thing and do another...as if he were a hypocrite

 

[glorydaz]

so you dont even try? No works?

Every time I've "tried", I've gotten in the way of what the Lord was doing. Who knows best? You or the Lord?

We can learn early on, or we can keep on thinking we can do a better job than He can do. It's the Lord's work, being done in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

well that is a relief...does He lead you to keep the law or to break it? To be more like Him or less and more like the world?

He doesn't lead me to keep the law or break it. The Law has served it's purpose by leading me to Christ.

even Buddhists or muslims dont murder or steal...are they saved now? So are christians allowed to or not?

Must you waste my time with these kinds of questions?

So does this new creature keep the commandments of Yah and the faith of Yahushua?

God is quite able to lead us into righteousness without any laws at all. The love of God has been shed abroad on our hearts by the Spirit who dwells in us.

In Him is NOT keeping the Law? Or keeping it? Or keeping different ones? New ones?

You'll find the answer right here.

You're asking if we want to remain under the law of sin and death, instead of being free from it?

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

 

[glorydaz]

Tell it to James...he said otherwise...in fact he asks if faith alone can save...2:14

Paul understood that and is why he said we establish law...wherever we go

He took a vow even to prove he still kept the law...but yours would have him teach one thing and do another...as if he were a hypocrite

James, Peter (Cephas), and John were sent to the circumcision. James was preaching to them...not us.

Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

As I told you, the Jews were required to have faith and works of righteousness. Just as Peter says here:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.​

Until you figure that out, you'll probably keep trying to keep the law.

 

[clefty]

Every time I've "tried", I've gotten in the way of what the Lord was doing.

wow really? So you tried to NOT steal and well that got in the way of what the Lord was doing? Which was getting you to steal? You tried to NOT commit adultery and that got in the way of what the Lord was doing?

So what the Lord is doing it getting you to go CONTRARY to His Father’s will?

Who knows best? You or the Lord?

The Lord asks you follow Him His Way...I guess He forgot it is impossible for you...apparently NOT doing bad stuff just gets in the way...

We can learn early on, or we can keep on thinking we can do a better job than He can do. It's the Lord's work, being done in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

ummm right...His work in us is EXACTLY to get us to follow Him HIS WAY...live as He did...to NOT sin as much...you know...NOT to do things contrary to the Law given to both Israel AND believing foreigners already at the time when the church was in the wilderness...

He transforms us to do good works...faith with HIS works is NOT DEAD...but silly you trying and getting in the way of the Lord...hahaha get it? You are not walking in His way but getting in His way...

He doesn't lead me to keep the law or break it.

oh no? He leads you into stealing murdering lying? What does He lead you to do NOT live just as He did?

The Law has served it's purpose by leading me to Christ.

it’s initial intent and how do you know when you are NOT following Him HIS WAY...

Even Paul knew copy me AS I COPY CHRIST...and “JUST AS” I might add

Must you waste my time with these kinds of questions? :

yes because that is the point doing the law does not save we must have faith in HIM...and then do the Law so that we do NOT steal BECAUSE OF HIM not because of Buddha or Allah or the police...pagans love each other but not with HIS LOVE which includes HIS LAWS which seperates us from other do gooders...

God is quite able to lead us into righteousness without any laws at all.

REALLY?

The love of God has been shed abroad on our hearts by the Spirit who dwells in us.

close...the LAWS of Yah have been shed abroad on our hearts and minds by the Spirit in this New Covenant age...circumcising the hearts to do HIS WILL

That is the work of the Spirit to make hearts circumcised for us to WANT to obey BECAUSE we are saved...you seem to think the Spirit would lead us elsewhere than from keeping the Law?

To love AS HE LOVED US is to fulfill the law...we are NOT to love the love of the world but of HIS SPIRIT

You'll find the answer right here.

You're asking if we want to remain under the law of sin and death, instead of being free from it?

the the Law is the Law of adoption the law of liberty...NOT breaking it is the SIGN we are HIS PEOPLE

Following Him HIS WAY...and because we are in HIM prevents His Law to be the law of sin and death

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

Yup the law of the SPIRIT OF LIFE...do these and LIVE


IN HIM we are keeping His Law...IN HIM we WANT TO...IN HIM it is NOT so hard to NOT steal or lie...come on, Glorydazed you can do it...with His help and work in you to transform you...

IN HIM we are free from the curses of the law...

Is why Paul is NOT MAD but expects the right dividing of the word to include

“Nevertheless the solid foundation of Yah STANDS having this seal “the Lord knows those who are His” and “Let EVERYONE who names the name of Yahushua DEPART FROM INIQUITY”

Catch that? Everyone is to depart from sin not just jews...

Is why it is “Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua...”

Faith OF not just faith IN...what was His Faith walk?

Copy Paul as he copied Christ

The red letters end with Him saying He comes with a reward for good works...it is NOT faith without works...or just good works of the jews

 

[clefty]

James, Peter (Cephas), and John were sent to the circumcision. James was preaching to them...not us.

oh right...there are two ways into the kingdom nevermind it was faith first in the entire OT...as per Hebrews 11 written to jews to remind them of just that...FAITH FIRST

Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

As I told you, the Jews were required to have faith and works of righteousness. Just as Peter says here:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.​

Until you figure that out, you'll probably keep trying to keep the law.

LOL...You missed the bolded part...in every nation includes gentiles just as the great commission is NOT go into all the Jews in the world...but baptize in every nation

Other translations make it more clear...”in every nation WHOEVER fears Him”...see not just jews

you also missed Peter was sent to the gentiles...probably because you think the vision he had was about being able to eat swine now...

Peter himself said it was NOT about Sunday Ham but preaching to the gentiles...to have them depart from iniquity by believing IN Him...

I mean just look at PETER’s mid acts gospel to the gentiles...Act 10

Yah shows “NO partiality”

“But in EVERY nation WHOEVER fears Him and” does what? Oh LOOK it says “works righteousness...”

“He is lord of ALL”...see so Peter figured out that vision...

The irony you claim Peter’s gospel is for “jews only” when that is EXACTLY what he had to UNLEARN

He concludes his preaching to the formerly unclean with “WHOEVER believes in Him will receive remission of sins”

Awwww that is nice isnt it? Sounds like the same gospel throughout and ever since the OT church in the wilderness...a house of prayer for ALL NATIONS

And yup the gift of Holy Spirit poured out on the gentiles and Peter commanded them to be baptized...

Imagine that Peter demanding good works of believing gentiles right there in the midst of Acts...the book of action and works of both jew and gentiles...one gospel same gospel same goal...salvation of all IN HIM...then follow HIM HIS WAY...

”Believing gentiles are to depart from iniquity”

“Yah gave them gentiles the same gift as He gave us when we believed”

“So Yah, who knows the heart, acknowledged them gentiles, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us AND MADE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM purifying their hearts by faith”

Preached by Peter...in mid Acts...

No distinction was made as they both obeyed ONE LAW as when the church was in the OT wilderness...

 

[Robert Pate]

If God sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10, then why are you so concerned about keeping the commandments? Trying to be holy by keeping the law is a denial of the Gospel and justification by faith. You can't make yourself any holier than what God has made you in Jesus Christ. It appears to me that you don't believe the Gospel. In the Gospel we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed by Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Trying to keep the law is an indication that you have not "entered into his rest" Hebrews 4:10. Those that have entered into his rest have ceased from their own works and are resting in the work of Christ. Perhaps you are not there.

 

[glorydaz]

wow really? So you tried to NOT steal and well that got in the way of what the Lord was doing? Which was getting you to steal? You tried to NOT commit adultery and that got in the way of what the Lord was doing?

So what the Lord is doing it getting you to go CONTRARY to His Father’s will?



The Lord asks you follow Him His Way...I guess He forgot it is impossible for you...apparently NOT doing bad stuff just gets in the way...

You sound like Rosenritter on overdrive. :chuckle:

Since your over-active imagination, and lack of practical experience causes you to be ignorant of the obedience of faith, I will answer just one small part of this foolish post.....out of pity for your ignorance.

You said to me, "so you dont even try? No works?"

To which I responded, "Every time I've "tried", I've gotten in the way of what the Lord was doing."



Case in point. I saw a young girl in our fellowship who was looking for a job and a place to live. Being a young believer, I decided (without seeking the Lord) to offer her a place to stay until she could get on her feet. When the girl took advantage of the situation, and laid about bed all day, an elder and friend of mine asked me if I had sought the Lord about it first, and I admitted I had not. He suggested I wait for the Lord's peace before I took something like that upon myself in my zeal to do good.

It's called amateur providence....getting in front of the Lord.

Nothing to do with murder, adultery, or stealing, so it would be best if you just chilled your jets and started acting like a real grown up person.

 

[clefty]

You sound like Rosenritter on overdrive. :chuckle:

Since your over-active imagination, and lack of practical experience causes you to be ignorant of the obedience of faith, I will answer just one small part of this foolish post.....out of pity for your ignorance.

You said to me, "so you dont even try? No works?"

To which I responded, "Every time I've "tried", I've gotten in the way of what the Lord was doing."



Case in point. I saw a young girl in our fellowship who was looking for a job and a place to live. Being a young believer, I decided (without seeking the Lord) to offer her a place to stay until she could get on her feet. When the girl took advantage of the situation, and laid about bed all day, an elder and friend of mine asked me if I had sought the Lord about it first, and I admitted I had not. He suggested I wait for the Lord's peace before I took something like that upon myself in my zeal to do good.

It's called amateur providence....getting in front of the Lord.

Nothing to do with murder, adultery, or stealing, so it would be best if you just chilled your jets and started acting like a real grown up person.

That girl did exactly what many are doing with their gift of salvation...no works just laying about doing whatever whenever...taking advantage of your grace...

The irony...

 

[glorydaz]

That girl did exactly what many are doing with their gift of salvation...no works just taking advantage of your grace

The irony...

Grace comes from God....not from me.

Try again Mr. You're too far from the truth to see it when it bumps up against you.

I have it. You give me a list of what "good works" you do, and I'll give you my opinion.

I'll just assume your won't be confessing to murder.

 

[clefty]

Grace comes from God....not from me.

of course you ignore the irony of your graciousness not appreciated with grateful good works by her in return

Try again Mr. You're too far from the truth to see it when it bumps up against you.

I have it. You give me a list of what "good works" you do, and I'll give you my opinion.

I'll just assume your won't be confessing to murder.

Murder as per OT or murder as per Christ...your opinion of good works is not concerned with either...as there is no binding good works law but just laying about all day basking in His grace...

 

[glorydaz]

of course you ignore the irony of your graciousness not appreciated with grateful good works by her in return

You missed the entire point. That's sad.

You speak of debt, and that is not grace at all. I wasn't being "gracious", I was enabling. Just as you are enabling your flesh by claiming your good works are acceptable to the Lord. They are not.

Murder as per OT or murder as per Christ...your opinion of good works is not concerned with either...as there is no binding good works law but just laying about all day basking in His grace...

All your efforts result in a fall from Grace. Paul explains that is why Christ has become of no effect to you. This is why you have no conception of what it means that believers are God's workmanship. He has ordained that we walk in good works....HIS not ours. That you refuse to give Him all the glory is an incredibly sad thing to see.

While you boast of your works of the flesh, just remember, boasting is excluded by the Law of Faith. So boast away...it's all you have.

 

[clefty]

You missed the entire point. That's sad.

You speak of debt, and that is not grace at all. I wasn't being "gracious", I was enabling.

What is sad that you would twist His mercy to allow sinful people to keep living to be enabling...He provides a gift of salvation...that others are NOT grateful and compelled to do good works is NOT on HIM...HE is NOT enabling them by allowing them to live...

Just as you are enabling your flesh by claiming your good works are acceptable to the Lord. They are not.

the Spirit leads me into good works...HIS WORKS...

All your efforts result in a fall from Grace.

efforts to attain salvation are exactly that...however you intentionally ignore I speak of works compelled by faith AFTER being saved...works IN HIM and by HIS SPIRIT IN ME...

Paul explains that is why Christ has become of no effect to you.

of course works to save replace His work but again I dont speak of those but of works BECAUSE OF HIM

This is why you have no conception of what it means that believers are God's workmanship. He has ordained that we walk in good works....HIS not ours.

LOL...duh...and it is YOU who have NO CLUE as to the SPIRIT causing you to LIVE AND WORSHIP AS HE DID claiming laws (especially that Sabbath one) no longer apply to you...as if you can walk and worship in a manner different than His

He detailed His last will and testament before His death...even modelled it for you...and yet you insist you can change a sealed document...live NOT as He did or modelled...but according to man’s traditions...and even claim the Spirit aids you in your altered walk...your another gospel another Christ...

That you refuse to give Him all the glory is an incredibly sad thing to see.

I boast in Him HIS WAYS...for HE saved me from my own and now my faith compels works...works more LIKE HIS

While you boast of your works of the flesh, just remember, boasting is excluded by the Law of Faith. So boast away...it's all you have.

Weak and lame as that attempt was I hope you feel better...

I boast in Him His work He did for me and in me to do His Way His Will...

 

[Hawkins]

There are always those not well witnessed for Jesus to tell them "I never know you, go away from me".


======
Earth is a place for humans to show up as who they are.
A covenant is to identify the righteous (saved) from the wicked (unsaved).
A predestination is to facilitate the above.

The wicked don't need a predestination because it is super easy to expose them as who they are (they sin without exception).
It is however difficult for the righteous to be told apart (they sin too), without predestination that is.
Predestination is about how God design a fate for the righteous to make critical choices along the path, such that they can be told apart from the wicked and thus openly judged as the righteous by the covenant applicable.

On the other hand, a covenant (unlike absolute Law) is not a complete objective mean to make the final judgment. It is however accurate enough for valid witnessing (of angels and saints) to be made. To put it another way, predestination makes it possible for your deeds to be witnessed by the chosen angels and human saints (i.e., Moses, Elijah and etc.) such that they can reckon you as the righteous by referencing a covenant in place which is applicable to you. However, this is not absolute. Jesus Christ is the final Judge. He says that you passed then you passed, He says that you are done then you are done.

For an example, the angels or saints may not be able to tell that theft on the cross besides Jesus is finally the saved. It's an extreme case that he's not "witnessed" but subject to the final decision of Jesus. To the mass majority of humans however, their deeds will tell them apart under the open witnessing of the angels and saints, by means of predestination and a covenant in place.

God knows who will be saved in the end by His foreknowledge but He didn't predestine them to be saved or condemned. He predestined the saved to make critical choices to show them up as who they are such that they will be saved by a said standard which is made known to everyone (i.e., a covenant). They are saved by such an open standard under the open witnessing of the angels and saints. Law itself gives the complete right to Jesus Christ to make the final judgment. Alternatively speaking, Jesus Christ earned this right by His own bloodshed. Those failed the judgment of covenant (i.e., by Jesus Christ) will subject themselves to another objective judgment, which is the the judgment by God's absolute Law (one which applicable to both angels and humans). No humans are expected to survive this judgment by Law (angels will survive though).

The estimated final result is thus, those angels passing the judgment of Law, together with those humans passing the judgment of covenant (i.e., judgment of Jesus Christ) will make their way into the final Heaven where they live with God forever and ever.
======

That being said, in a broader sense you are still correct to say that "we are predestined to be saved." However it's never proper to conclude that "they are predestined to be condemned."

 

[Robert Pate]

There are always those not well witnessed for Jesus to tell them "I never know you, go away from me".


======
Earth is a place for humans to show up as who they are.
A covenant is to identify the righteous (saved) from the wicked (unsaved).
A predestination is to facilitate the above.

The wicked don't need a predestination because it is super easy to expose them as who they are (they sin without exception).
It is however difficult for the righteous to be told apart (they sin too), without predestination that is.
Predestination is about how God design a fate for the righteous to make critical choices along the path, such that they can be told apart from the wicked and thus openly judged as the righteous by the covenant applicable.

On the other hand, a covenant (unlike absolute Law) is not a complete objective mean to make the final judgment. It is however accurate enough for valid witnessing (of angels and saints) to be made. To put it another way, predestination makes it possible for your deeds to be witnessed by the chosen angels and human saints (i.e., Moses, Elijah and etc.) such that they can reckon you as the righteous by referencing a covenant in place which is applicable to you. However, this is not absolute. Jesus Christ is the final Judge. He says that you passed then you passed, He says that you are done then you are done.

For an example, the angels or saints may not be able to tell that theft on the cross besides Jesus is finally the saved. It's an extreme case that he's not "witnessed" but subject to the final decision of Jesus. To the mass majority of humans however, their deeds will tell them apart under the open witnessing of the angels and saints, by means of predestination and a covenant in place.

God knows who will be saved in the end by His foreknowledge but He didn't predestine them to be saved or condemned. He predestined the saved to make critical choices to show them up as who they are such that they will be saved by a said standard which is made known to everyone (i.e., a covenant). They are saved by such an open standard under the open witnessing of the angels and saints. Law itself gives the complete right to Jesus Christ to make the final judgment. Alternatively speaking, Jesus Christ earned this right by His own bloodshed. Those failed the judgment of covenant (i.e., by Jesus Christ) will subject themselves to another objective judgment, which is the the judgment by God's absolute Law (one which applicable to both angels and humans). No humans are expected to survive this judgment by Law (angels will survive though).

The estimated final result is thus, those angels passing the judgment of Law, together with those humans passing the judgment of covenant (i.e., judgment of Jesus Christ) will make their way into the final Heaven where they live with God forever and ever.
======

That being said, in a broader sense you are still correct to say that "we are predestined to be saved." However it's never proper to conclude that "they are predestined to be condemned."

You have no scripture to substantiate what you believe.

 

[Hawkins]

You have no scripture to substantiate what you believe.

That's rather summarized from what is said by the whole Bible. It only shows that you lack the capability to harmonize the Bible as a whole.

 

[Robert Pate]

That's rather summarized from what is said by the whole Bible. It only shows that you lack the capability to harmonize the Bible as a whole.

When you try to make a point without scripture I don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

 

[john w]

That's rather summarized from what is said by the whole Bible. It only shows that you lack the capability to harmonize the Bible as a whole.

Pate spams "You have no scripture to substantiate what you believe/When you try to make a point without scripture " to everyone that disagrees with his made up "Pate-anity." That is his MO, on TOL.

 

[glorydaz]

What is sad that you would twist His mercy to allow sinful people to keep living to be enabling...He provides a gift of salvation...that others are NOT grateful and compelled to do good works is NOT on HIM...HE is NOT enabling them by allowing them to live...

the Spirit leads me into good works...HIS WORKS...





efforts to attain salvation are exactly that...however you intentionally ignore I speak of works compelled by faith AFTER being saved...works IN HIM and by HIS SPIRIT IN ME...

of course works to save replace His work but again I dont speak of those but of works BECAUSE OF HIM

LOL...duh...and it is YOU who have NO CLUE as to the SPIRIT causing you to LIVE AND WORSHIP AS HE DID claiming laws (especially that Sabbath one) no longer apply to you...as if you can walk and worship in a manner different than His

He detailed His last will and testament before His death...even modelled it for you...and yet you insist you can change a sealed document...live NOT as He did or modelled...but according to man’s traditions...and even claim the Spirit aids you in your altered walk...your another gospel another Christ...

I boast in Him HIS WAYS...for HE saved me from my own and now my faith compels works...works more LIKE HIS



Weak and lame as that attempt was I hope you feel better...

I boast in Him His work He did for me and in me to do His Way His Will...

You're an idiot. Do you really expect me to read this nonsense? :nono:

 

[Robert Pate]

Pate spams "You have no scripture to substantiate what you believe/When you try to make a point without scripture " to everyone that disagrees with his made up "Pate-anity." That is his MO, on TOL.

You do the same thing. You have your own nonbiblical doctrine, regardless of what the scriptures say.

 

[clefty]

You're an idiot. Do you really expect me to read this nonsense? :nono:

No not really...and as per usual and typical...

I expect to be ignored first then rediculed then fought then censored...you know the usual stages of those that just pick up their ball and go home...

So what was it? the “one can’t changed or alter a sealed contract/will/Testament once the testator is dead” clause?

People forget He modelled how to live and instructed we do the same...and that is the new covenant...

They still insist changes can be made...get MAD even and finally start the outlines process above...ignore redicule etc

Was actually surprised you responded at all...and without all those cute emojis...