Do you not believe John 1:1?
Jesus is God !
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John 1:1
If you believe that the Word is God and the Word became flesh, who might that be?
Not the God he was with before he became flesh, surely. Weren't you talking to me about John 1:1-3? There John says twice that the Logos (Jesus) was on God's side before he came here. When he became flesh and came here, God stayed there. That is why John later says under inspiration that no one has seen God and that it was his Son who made him known (John 1: 14,18).
No follower of Jesus ever believed that God had come to earth; they saw Jesus praying to God too many times and many times heard him talking about Him. How could I think that God was on earth and that they saw him, if I am reading just the opposite?
No follower of Jesus ever believed that God had come to earth; they saw Jesus praying to God too many times and many times heard him talking about Him. How could I think that God was on earth and that they saw him, if I am reading just the opposite?
John 20:28
New International Version
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
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Yes, He is.
Yes, Jesus is the Creator of ALL THINGS. Col 2:16
Misunderstanding that verse is a hallmark of heretical cults.
Jesus is BOTH God and man. The MAN Jesus has a God because He is an Israelite, just like His people.
The one bringing drama here is you.
I know that the truth hurts you... be strong and accept it.
Was Jesus a liar when He said that HE would raise HIMSELF from the dead?
John 2:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
Acts 2:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
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No, it does NOT say that "Jesus was on God's side"... it says that Jesus WAS/IS GOD.
1Cor 15:47 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:47) The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
Eph 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Is the LORD GOD not Lord?
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Saying it doesn't make it so.
Yes, there is only one God.
But He is not a singular Being.
The first verse in the Bible, one of the most studied/well known verses, uses the PLURAL form of the word "God", but uses the singular form of the word "created."
Moses, the one who wrote Genesis, did not make a grammatical error when he wrote it that way.
Indeed.
Jesus is one of the three Persons in the Godhead.
Let's see what the verse says:
You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. - John 14:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:28&version=NKJV
Hmmm, no denial by Jesus that He is God here... Are you sure you have the right verse?
The nature of God is God.
The essence of God is God.
We don't.
God is God. He is three Persons.
Indeed.
God said:
Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, - Isaiah 46:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:9&version=NKJV
There are no other gods besides God.
Any gods that people have are, by definition, false gods. They don't exist, except as a concept, figments of imagination.
RD answered this sufficiently above.
Yes, He is.
God said :
I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. - Isaiah 42:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah42:8&version=NKJV
Jesus said:
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:5&version=NKJV
Was God lying?
Was Jesus lying?
Or was Jesus God?
Jesus was Spirit before He became a man. Now He has a human form which He will indwell for the rest of eternity.
Your arguments are straw men.
Jesus, the Son, submits to His Father, and the Holy Spirit submits to the Son.
The three Persons are one God.
Let's see what the verse says:
He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. - Revelation 3:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation3:12&version=NKJV
Hmm, nothing about worship at all in this verse. No denial by Jesus that He is also God, either.
Strike two?
Hmmm...
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. - Revelation 5:8-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation5:8-14&version=NKJV
The verse doesn't seem to say what you're saying...
It also aligns with what I pointed out above, how God said He will not share His glory with another, yet here Jesus is, receiving God's glory...
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” - John 20:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John20:17&version=NKJV
No denial that Jesus is God here...
You're the one trying to cause drama...
Right back 'atcha!
Scripture agrees with itself.
None of those passages deny that Jesus is God.
The word you're looking for is "likely."
We agree with Scripture, which says that Jesus is God.
Are you aware that John 1:1 says, in the Greek, "the logos was with the God and God was the logos"?
The verse doesn't just say "the logos was with God."
It also says "God was the logos."
Both "With" and "was" are used.
Before He became flesh, he was with and WAS God.
It also says God was the logos.
You seem to keep forgetting that bit.
God can be in multiple places at once, you know...
Jesus, who is God, can be in a different location than the Father, who is God, and in a different location than the Holy Spirit, who is God.
The Old Testament shows this:
Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. - Genesis 19:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis19:24&version=NKJV
So Moses never saw God's back?
John wasn't being woodenly literal.
He was making a point.
No one has seen God because God is invisible.
God, who is invisible, was made known by Jesus, the express image of God, because Jesus, in declaring Him, also was Him, in the flesh!
This is simply false.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4:1-3&version=NKJV
Yeah, and?
Doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't God.
| The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is... - Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17 - From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2 - Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10 - Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9 - Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17 - Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20 - Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13 - Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8 - The exact equivalent in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead") in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc. to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10 to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11 as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13 as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17 as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14 as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23 as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14 as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22 as Lawgiver: James 4:12 as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8 as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10. |
7djengo7
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By your word, "God," are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?
If Yes, then here is what you are saying: "Jesus is definitely NOT [the Father]." But who is saying that Jesus is the Father? Not Trinitarians. So, what point were you trying to make?
If No, then to whom or what are you referring by your word, "God"?
Thank you for mentioning that biblical quote; Every time I read it, it reminds me of the message that Jesus sent to his brothers just a few verses before that one:
John 20:17Jesus said to her: “(...) I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
Do you think that Thomas has correctly understood that message? Do you correctly understand it?
The moment Jesus says that someone else is his God (Rev. 3:12), he is already saying that he is not. More than that, he tells his brothers that his God is the same God as theirs (John 20:17). He said that because they were Jews like him, and worshiped the same God among all (John 8:54,55; 4:22). Jesus tells his Father in a prayer in front of his apostles that He is "the only true God" (John 17:3). Surely his followers were very clear about it (Rev. 1:5,6)... unlike what was taught several centuries later by the second generation that followed that one. Those others were no longer clear about who God really was, and one of the reasons was that the vast majority of them at that time were no longer Jews.
I don't need the theologians who have given continuity to that erroneous doctrine that Jesus is equal to God to teach me anything. Thank God those erroneous teachings that were invented later were not recorded as inspired, because they never were. The truth is in the Scriptures, that were finished with John, the last apostle.
Have you ever wondered why the Catholic Church never dared to include as inspired writing any post-John writing (there were a lot of them), which they could well have used to defend the new theological speculations they defended about the fourth century?
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Jesus is BOTH God and man. Sometime, Jesus speaks AS THE MAN.
Note what Jesus does NOT say. Jesus does NOT say that only the Father is the true God.
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No, it's the truth.
That is a lie.
Again... Jesus is NOT saying what YOU say that He says.
Jesus: "...thee the only true God..."
You: "Only the Father is the true God".
Those are NOT the same. Jesus is TRUE... you are FALSE.
If you want to change what Jesus said is your problem. I believe him.
When Jesus spoke the words of Rev. 3.12 he made it very clear that in the heavenly temple he is not considered God, but his Father. Rev. 5:9,10 confirms it. John knew it very well (Rev.1:5,6) as well as Paul (1 Cor. 15:24-28) , Peter (1 Pet. 1:3) and all the others who accepted the teachings of Jesus and never dared to change them, because they respected him as a true Teacher, not as someone who did not know what he was saying, who one day he believed he was just a human and another day he believed he was equal to God. That would have been disrespectful to Jesus and treating him like a mental patient.
When Jesus spoke the words of Rev. 3.12 he made it very clear that in the heavenly temple he is not considered God, but his Father. Rev. 5:9,10 confirms it. John knew it very well (Rev.1:5,6) as well as Paul (1 Cor. 15:24-28) , Peter (1 Pet. 1:3) and all the others who accepted the teachings of Jesus and never dared to change them, because they respected him as a true Teacher, not as someone who did not know what he was saying, who one day he believed he was just a human and another day he believed he was equal to God. That would have been disrespectful to Jesus and treating him like a mental patient.
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I believe exactly what He said.
You twist His words to make your lie.
Again you must twist God's word to make your lie.
Again, Jesus is BOTH God and MAN. Speaking AS A MAN, Jesus has a God.
It is I that respects the LORD Jesus Christ. It is YOU that demotes Him. He is the CREATOR of ALL THINGS. Col 2:16.
So again I ask:
Was Jesus a liar when He said that HE would raise HIMSELF from the dead?
John 2:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
Acts 2:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
You continue to call me a liar, even when I'm just reminding readers of the teachings of Jesus. I'm not even quoting the texts, for you to read in your own Bibles. Who is a liar? A person who quotes Jesus, or another who is trying to contradict him?
Do you think Jesus is lying in Rev. 3.12? What do you think he meant with those words? After reading those words of Jesus, do you think anyone in heavens is trinitarian?
Do you think Jesus is lying in Rev. 3.12? What do you think he meant with those words? After reading those words of Jesus, do you think anyone in heavens is trinitarian?
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I only do that because you are lying.
See? You just lied again.
You quote the scripture and then LIE about what it says.
No. Jesus never lies. Like when He said that HE WOULD RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD.
John 2:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.
Acts 2:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Well, I am not writing here for you, but for others readers of the topic. You can go and sleep if you want to. Anyway, you don't seem to take seriously what Jesus taught. Actually, it would be much better if you leave and sent someone to the forum who is better prepared than you to answer my questions without changing the subject. You don't seem to be very well educated, and so you just mock, insult, and try to provoke me into attacking you so that I get in trouble on the forum. Send your pastor here; maybe we can have a normal dialogue him and me.
Anyone who reads the heavenly visions in Revelation 4-6 realizes that Jesus is not considered God in heaven. That's just a wrong teaching that someone made up after John died; a non-Jew surely, because the first Christians were Jews and they knew very well that there is only one God in heaven and that Jesus is his Son.
Anyone who reads the heavenly visions in Revelation 4-6 realizes that Jesus is not considered God in heaven. That's just a wrong teaching that someone made up after John died; a non-Jew surely, because the first Christians were Jews and they knew very well that there is only one God in heaven and that Jesus is his Son.
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