Jesus is God !

blueboy

Member
So, can you see that you've got two things going against you here?

You deny the bodily Resurrection and you deny the Trinity, these are both central to Christian tradition, but you express doubt in both.

You have to tread extremely carefully to not get tagged a blasphemer, with positions like these.
Can't I have an opinion that differs from the traditions of Christianity and still love God and Christ as much as you?

The Resurrection I believe in is the greatest. The Words, the Teachings of Jesus transcended His death. Those Words built the Christian empire that has transformed the world. What did His body do? Jesus may very well have appeared to His disciples, but this was nothing compared to His Teachings which rose from death and took hold of the planet.

I believe in a trinity that does not suggest that God is made of parts. God is One and His Will, or Holy Spirit flowed through and was active in Jesus. Jesus spiritually reflected God in deed and action.

That is not blasphemy, that is an opinion based on reality as I see it.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Look, I'm happy for you fellers to block me out, shut me down, whatever, I don't mind at all, because I do see and accept that this is a site for a certain type of Christian to engage with others of the same ilk. People like to belong and have relationships of kind and mind and I appreciated that somebody like me is an irritant to the group think here.
The "group think" here is actually just being correct.
But, blasphemy, wow, a difference of opinion is not blasphemy? I have wondered what might have set you off and blasphemy never once entered my mind.
Indeed, if the Lord Jesus Christ is God (and He is) and you say that He is NOT... then YES INDEED, that is blasphemy.
There are tens-of-thousands of Christian sects, cults, churches that all differ to some degree, so Christianity has remained strong in the face of countless differences, but blasphemy is another animal altogether. I do not blaspheme, nor did I blaspheme ever on this site.
Indeed, you do blaspheme the LORD Jesus Christ, who is God and yet you claim that He is not.
As I have no power over what you think or perceive I humbly accept that you believe I blasphemed and when and if you believe I blasphemed again please feel free to block me or remove me from the site permanently.
You can remove yourself ... or better yet... start believing the truth.
 

7djengo7

This space intentionally left blank
You had said:
but to imagine that Jesus is God
So I asked you:
By your word, "God," are you referring to the Father? [Yes or No?]
blueboy: <NO ANSWER>

You had said:
but very, very odd if Jesus was God
So I asked you:
When you say, "but very, very odd if Jesus was God", by your word, "God," are you referring to the Father? [Yes or No?]
blueboy: <NO ANSWER>

You had said:
many more lines of Scripture that make it clear that He is not God
So I asked you:
By your word, "God," here, are you referring to the Father? [Yes or No?]
blueboy: <NO ANSWER>

You had said:
God is beyond plurality, division,
So I asked you:
Once again, by your word, "God," to whom are you referring? Are you referring to the Father? [Yes or No?]
blueboy: <NO ANSWER>

You said:
Yes, that's my point, Jesus is not God
When you say "Jesus is not God," by your word, "God," are you referring to the Father? Yes or No?

  • If Yes, then this is all you're saying: "Jesus is not [the Father]". The truth that Jesus (the Son) is not the Father is an essential tenet of Trinitarianism. So, if that's what you're saying, then, rather than attacking Trinitarianism, you're preaching it to the Trinitarian choir.
  • If No, then to whom are you referring by your word, "God"?

all I can say on my own behalf
is absolutely nothing, whatsoever. All the saying you've thus far done on TOL militates against your own behalf.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Can't I have an opinion that differs from the traditions of Christianity and still love God and Christ as much as you?
You can try... but it's pretty hard to love Christ and yet blaspheme Him at the same time.
The Resurrection I believe in is the greatest. The Words, the Teachings of Jesus transcended His death.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? He said that He would raise Himself. Was He a liar?
Those Words built the Christian empire that has transformed the world.
There is no "Christian empire".
What did His body do? Jesus may very well have appeared to His disciples, but this was nothing compared to His Teachings which rose from death and took hold of the planet.
So you do not even believe HIS WORD?
I believe in a trinity that does not suggest that God is made of parts.
Again a straw-man argument. We do NOT believe that God is "made of parts". That is lying about our position.
God is One and His Will, or Holy Spirit flowed through and was active in Jesus. Jesus spiritually reflected God in deed and action.
Indeed, God is ONE... Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each are God and YET they are ONE GOD.
That is not blasphemy, that is an opinion based on reality as I see it.
Your opinion is blasphemy.
 

Right Divider

Body part
By your word, "God," are you referring to the Father?

God and Father are one and the same. Father of Creation / God of Creation. Jesus is not literally God, but there is a trinity in the sense that God and the Holy Spirit are in a sense the same thing. God being the totality of the God-head and the Holy Spirit being the Creative powers that are an aspect of the reality of God. Jesus then is the earthly vehicle by which God, the Father makes known what He expects from humanity. The Will of God is expressed through Jesus without Jesus actually being God. That is why the terms Father and Son are used, this firstly denotes the difference and at the same time the closeness of the relationship.
Jesus said that HE would raise HIMSELF from the dead. Was He a liar?

John 2:18-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:18) ¶ Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? (2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Acts 2:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Can't I have an opinion that differs from the traditions of Christianity and still love God and Christ as much as you?
Yes. In the way in which you mean it, yes. I am not even accusing you of being a non-Christian, although I am in the extreme minority in that view. God's mercy triumphs even over ignorance. So long as you believe in Christ, in whatever way you define that, I give you full credit for loving God and Christ as much as me.
The Resurrection I believe in is the greatest. The Words, the Teachings of Jesus transcended His death. Those Words built the Christian empire that has transformed the world. What did His body do? Jesus may very well have appeared to His disciples, but this was nothing compared to His Teachings which rose from death and took hold of the planet.
He didn't just speak. He instructed His Apostles who went on the establish the institution of the office of a bishop (cf. 1st Timothy 3:1) and it was those Apostles and their bishops who spread the Gospel all around the world. They rather quickly figured out that the best place to do this from wasn't Jerusalem but Rome.
I believe in a trinity that does not suggest that God is made of parts.
Christian tradition does not believe God is made of parts, God is One substance, in Aristotelian terms. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and even love is God, but we are not taught to baptize in the name of love, but only of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
God is One and His Will, or Holy Spirit flowed through and was active in Jesus. Jesus spiritually reflected God in deed and action.
This is run-of-the-mill non-Trinitarianism, nothing new.
That is not blasphemy, that is an opinion based on reality as I see it.
The heart of Christian tradition is the bodily Resurrection of Christ, and the Trinity.
 

Right Divider

Body part
He didn't just speak. He instructed His Apostles who went on the establish the institution of the office of a bishop (cf. 1st Timothy 3:1) and it was those Apostles and their bishops who spread the Gospel all around the world.
The singular apostle that you're talking about was Paul... that other and different apostle that is not one of the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The twelve were part of a priesthood and not a bishophood.
And the gospel that Paul preached as NOT the same one that the twelve apostles preached to Israel.
They rather quickly figured out that the best place to do this from wasn't Jerusalem but Rome.
You spoke of Paul and now switched to THEY... are you simply confused or are you being dishonest?
 

JudgeRightly

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Look, I'm happy for you fellers to block me out, shut me down, whatever, I don't mind at all, because I do see and accept that this is a site for a certain type of Christian to engage with others of the same ilk. People like to belong and have relationships of kind and mind and I appreciated that somebody like me is an irritant to the group think here.

But, blasphemy, wow, a difference of opinion is not blasphemy? I have wondered what might have set you off and blasphemy never once entered my mind.

Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.

There are tens-of-thousands of Christian sects, cults, churches that all differ to some degree, so Christianity has remained strong in the face of countless differences, but blasphemy is another animal altogether. I do not blaspheme, nor did I blaspheme ever on this site.

You have.

As I have no power over what you think or perceive I humbly accept that you believe I blasphemed and when and if you believe I blasphemed again please feel free to block me or remove me from the site permanently.

The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.

There is nothing I could say that you wouldn't find fault with.

Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?

All I did was respond in as honest a fashion as I could, after all a charge of blasphemy was sentenced upon me. In some countries that is a death sentence. It was no small thing and the last thing I expected. I thought it necessitated a response which I tried to keep honest and somewhat dignified. You see it as you will, but blasphemy was unjust and a bridge too far. There has never been a hint of blasphemy in any of my posts.

False.

I am no Christ-hater, as for the rest of your tirade, I don't feel wronged, I think it more likely to be a case of misunderstanding of terms and language, a difference in the interpretation of meaning of the Bible?

There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.

I am deeply saddened by the endless layers of superstition and dogma that have settled on Christianity,

So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.

because it inoculates people from ever approaching religion in general and accessing the healing words of Christ.

Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.

By your word, "God," are you referring to the Father?

God and Father are one and the same. Father of Creation / God of Creation.

Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV

Jesus is not literally God,

Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.



but there is a trinity in the sense that God and the Holy Spirit are in a sense the same thing. God being the totality of the God-head and the Holy Spirit being the Creative powers that are an aspect of the reality of God.

Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.

Jesus then is the earthly vehicle by which God, the Father makes known what He expects from humanity.

He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.



The Will of God is expressed through Jesus without Jesus actually being God.

Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.

That is why the terms Father and Son are used, this firstly denotes the difference and at the same time the closeness of the relationship.

The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.

The Son (Jesus) is not the Father. So what point are you trying to make?

I'm confused here because a transcendent, One True God can't be compartmentalised into,

No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.

God and an essence of God, the Holy Spirit and the Son of Himself.

All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.

Now if you say that Jesus is the incarnation of God, that is He reflects the qualities and attributes and authority of God like a perfect mirror, then I agree with you, but that does not make Jesus God.

Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15

I used that Scripture to show the distinction between God and Jesus.

The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.

You see when I use Scripture it does not necessarily help my cause.

That's because your cause is wrong.

The Father. Duh. Hence, He says, "This is my beloved Son..." Yes, that's my point, Jesus is not God, nor is He bound up is a three part God-head.

Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.



The nature of God cannot be described as being plural,

From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.

it is beyond plurality.

This is meaningless nonsense.

God is uncreated,

Agreed.

so not composed of parts.

Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.

I can't help you understand anything,

That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.

all I can say on my own behalf is that a literal Trinity is not Biblical,

And you, in saying that, are wrong.

yet a trinity does exist as previously mentioned, that Jesus is the embodiment of God on earth,

"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.

He obeys the divine Will of God

Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.

and teaches what He is directed to teach by the expressed Will of God.

Supra.

Jesus is not part of God,

Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.

but He bound to God in ways we could not hope to understand.

But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!

God and the active force of God that we call the Holy Spirit are one and the same, they are not seperate entities,

The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.

just as your actions, words, thoughts, etc, are not some other you acting on your behalf.

Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.

That's cool. I had to look that book up, never heard of it. Very interesting, thanks.

It's a bunch of nonsense.

Can't I have an opinion that differs from the traditions of Christianity

You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.

and still love God and Christ as much as you?

You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.

The Resurrection I believe in is the greatest. The Words, the Teachings of Jesus transcended His death. Those Words built the Christian empire that has transformed the world. What did His body do? Jesus may very well have appeared to His disciples, but this was nothing compared to His Teachings which rose from death and took hold of the planet.

Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.

I believe in a trinity that does not suggest that God is made of parts.

Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?

God is One

...of plurality.

and His Will, or Holy Spirit flowed through and was active in Jesus.

Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV

Jesus spiritually reflected God in deed and action.

He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!

That is not blasphemy, that is an opinion based on reality as I see it.

Supra.
 

blueboy

Member
Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.



You have.



The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.



Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?



False.



There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.



So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.



Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.



Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV



Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.





Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.



He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.





Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.



The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.



No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.



All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.



Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15



The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.



That's because your cause is wrong.



Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.





From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.



This is meaningless nonsense.



Agreed.



Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.



That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.



And you, in saying that, are wrong.



"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.



Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.



Supra.



Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.



But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!



The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.



Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.



It's a bunch of nonsense.



You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.



You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.



Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.



Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?



...of plurality.



Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV



He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!



Supra.
What a wonderful post. I deeply appreciate the time and effort you put in to respond. Clearly your sincerity shines through to go to so much trouble for a bother like myself. It is so comprehensive and detailed that I'll have to respond in several small posts and hope that this somewhat addresses the questions or points of difference of other posters.

Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.

Who wrote the OT and why is it in the Bible. If the OT is the Word of God, or is divinely inspired by God, then whomever wrote it must also be the Word. Now if you claim that the spirit of Jesus was in or was manifest in Abraham, Moses, Noah, and others, I don't have a problem with that, because I see no difference between the Messengers of God who appear in the Bible. They are all the Word.

The Word is both in an absolute, uncreated, timeless state with God and to manifest and be revealed in the material realm the Word must manifest through a human form. So the Word is in an absolute state with God, beyond time, form or state and in a relative state, in a time-bound conditional human form.

Some Christians believe that this happened only once in human history, but how then can they explain a Bible that covers at least 6000 years of Revelation. And what of the Christ figure who will return.

To the best of my ability I have pondered this and it seems perfectly reasonable that the Word is both absolute with God and relative with the various Messengers who all seem to be the Word. As I mentioned, if the claim is that Jesus in other forms manifests from age to age to renew the Word, then I think that also makes sense, but that does not make Jesus God. I will get to that as I go through your fine post.
 

blueboy

Member
Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.



You have.



The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.



Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?



False.



There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.



So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.



Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.



Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV



Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.





Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.



He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.





Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.



The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.



No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.



All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.



Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15



The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.



That's because your cause is wrong.



Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.





From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.



This is meaningless nonsense.



Agreed.



Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.



That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.



And you, in saying that, are wrong.



"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.



Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.



Supra.



Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.



But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!



The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.



Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.



It's a bunch of nonsense.



You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.



You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.



Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.



Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?



...of plurality.



Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV



He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!



Supra.
You have. Concerning blasphemy.

I respect your beliefs and I love God and Jesus, but it is my sacred obligation to know my own truths. In my search I may have differing views to established beliefs, but that does not for one second suggest that I in any way have anything less than the deepest love and respect for the exalted station of Christ and the eternal Glory of God.

By coming to an understanding that Jesus is not literally God, yet represents God in the flesh and the authority of God I am not reducing God to a human form, a material state which can not be compared in any way to the glorious state of eternal God. I can not accept that the Creator of the universe can be subjected to the transience of physical reality to be soiled and murdered by creatures of its own Creation. God could not be contained even by an entire universe.

I feel blasphemy is more about intent and I in no way set out to demean the station of the Christ. Christ is more than a mere human, but less than God. The following Scriptures are but a few that has led me to my present understanding.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
 

blueboy

Member
Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.



You have.



The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.



Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?



False.



There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.



So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.



Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.



Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV



Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.





Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.



He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.





Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.



The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.



No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.



All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.



Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15



The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.



That's because your cause is wrong.



Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.





From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.



This is meaningless nonsense.



Agreed.



Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.



That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.



And you, in saying that, are wrong.



"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.



Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.



Supra.



Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.



But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!



The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.



Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.



It's a bunch of nonsense.



You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.



You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.



Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.



Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?



...of plurality.



Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV



He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!



Supra.
The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts. I'm trying, I'm not here to cause trouble. The only people who ever really help me grow are the ones who challenge me. There is little or no growth in complete agreement.
 

blueboy

Member
Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.



You have.



The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.



Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?



False.



There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.



So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.



Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.



Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV



Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.





Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.



He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.





Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.



The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.



No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.



All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.



Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15



The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.



That's because your cause is wrong.



Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.





From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.



This is meaningless nonsense.



Agreed.



Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.



That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.



And you, in saying that, are wrong.



"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.



Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.



Supra.



Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.



But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!



The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.



Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.



It's a bunch of nonsense.



You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.



You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.



Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.



Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?



...of plurality.



Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV



He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!



Supra.
Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong? All the time. If I thought I was absolute right I would have no need to be communicating my thoughts.
 

blueboy

Member
Calling Abraham, Moses, and Noah "The Word" is blasphemy, because Jesus alone is "The Word." And since Jesus is God, Calling someone other than Jesus "The Word" is making them equal with God.



You have.



The only reason I haven't removed you yet is because you've been making at least somewhat substantive posts.



Have you considered that it might be because you're wrong?



False.



There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible.



So are we.

The thing I can't figure out though is why you want to add to it.



Far more people are inoculated against scripture by claiming it's just a bunch of figures of speech that don't mean anything specific.

When you take the Bible at its word, however, you end up with a very firm foundation on which to see the world.



Jesus is the one who created, though. Paul tells us about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

And:

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians8:6&version=NKJV

While John tells us:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-4&version=NKJV

While the author of Hebrews writes:

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV



Then He is either a liar or a lunatic, and therefore not to be trusted. Yes, that's the only other option.

Spoiler

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His message. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord came to teach us about Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:

  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
  • "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.





Except that the Holy Spirit isn't described as the One who did the Creating. Jesus is.



He's not just the vehicle for God's message, He IS the message!

Spoiler

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. To paraphrase Greg Koukl from The John 10:10 Project, "You can take Buddha out and still have Buddhism, or take the prophet out and still have Allah, but if you take Jesus out you don't have Christianity any more." Jesus is either a blasphemer or God Himself. The above list comes from His words. We could make a similar list of Christ as the message using the remainder of the New Testament. And additionally, strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional proof texts show His deity even more effectively when presented alongside the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ.





Wrong. The will of God is expressed through Jesus BECAUSE Jesus IS God.



The terms "Father" and "Son" are used because that's how God describes Himself.

The Father says "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
And the Son says "I and My Father are one."
And Peter tells Ananias that in lying to the Holy Spirit, He lied to God.



No one is compartmentalizing anything, except you.



All three are the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 says "The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

Except that it's not "one" in that God is a singular being, but the same word that is used in Genesis, which shows a unity of a plurality.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."
"The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

It's the same word used.



Jesus is God in the flesh, AND He is the image of the invisible God.

John 1:1, 14; Colossians 1:15



The problem is that Jesus IS God, and the distinction you show is not between Jesus and God, but Jesus and the Father, which NO Trinitarian claims are the same Person, just the same God.



That's because your cause is wrong.



Non-sequitur.

Spoiler

The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity: Most of the primary verses with a sampling of the many others showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...
- Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
- From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
- Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
- Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
- Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
- Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
- Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
- Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
- The exact equivalent
in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
as Lawgiver: James 4:12
as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.





From the very first verse of the Bible, God is described as a plural being.



This is meaningless nonsense.



Agreed.



Trinitarians don't say God is composed of parts. He is One God, He is three Persons.



That much is clear. So why are you trying to teach?

Try listening, for once.



And you, in saying that, are wrong.



"Jesus being the embodiment of God on Earth" is saying He is God:

He is God in the flesh.

John 1:14 uses a verb "to tabernacle" that's translated as "dwell." The LOGOS, being God, literally tabernacled among us. It means "to put on a tent," and in this case, it's talking about a "tent" of flesh.



Yes, Jesus submits His will to the will of the Father.



Supra.



Duh. You say that as if it does anything to disprove that Jesus was/is God.

He IS God. Not part of God.



But we CAN understand it, because it's explained by Him BEING GOD!



The simplest explanation for this is that the Holy Spirit is God.



Except that my actions, words, thoughts, are not an individual person, as the Holy Spirit is, and He has his own actions, words, thoughts, etc.



It's a bunch of nonsense.



You can. Doesn't mean your opinion is correct.



You cannot love God if you are blaspheming and dishonoring Him.



Minimizing Jesus' accomplishment of defeating death Himself is one of the ways in which you dishonor Him.



Good for you. Neither do we. So what's your point?



...of plurality.



Vs.:

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. - Colossians 2:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians2:9-10&version=NKJV



He did much more than that. He was God in the flesh!



Supra.
There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible. As I have mentioned, there are tens-of-thousands of different Christian churches, sects, divisions. Each one of these schisms has a conflicting interpretation regarding some aspect of Scripture.

The Abomination of Desolation relates to an age when there is no safe or reliable place to turn to to understand ones place before God relating to the understanding of Scripture. That is what this means and it surely applies to this age.

I think it worth some effort to explore the truth rather than accept what has gone before.
 

Right Divider

Body part
There's a difference between being wrong, and having a difference of opinion on how to interpret the Bible. As I have mentioned, there are tens-of-thousands of different Christian churches, sects, divisions. Each one of these schisms has a conflicting interpretation regarding some aspect of Scripture.
You certainly like to bring up irrelevant points.
I think it worth some effort to explore the truth rather than accept what has gone before.
What if the truth has already "gone before"?

Please answer the question posted here: https://theologyonline.com/threads/jesus-is-god.17701/post-1869399
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
... Who wrote the OT and why is it in the Bible. If the OT is the Word of God, or is divinely inspired by God, then whomever wrote it must also be the Word. Now if you claim that the spirit of Jesus was in or was manifest in Abraham, Moses, Noah, and others, I don't have a problem with that, because I see no difference between the Messengers of God who appear in the Bible. They are all the Word.

... explain a Bible that covers at least 6000 years of Revelation. ...
"I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets."

... there are tens-of-thousands of different Christian churches, sects, divisions. Each one of these schisms has a conflicting interpretation ...
But history reveals just one Christian tradition in the central matters of the bodily nonfiction Resurrection of Christ, and that God is the Trinity. For well over 1500 years, meaning well past the Reformation, these two beliefs prevailed in Christian tradition, and they didn't appear late but rather within the first century, this is just cold history.
 

JudgeRightly

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I'll have to respond in several small posts

I'd rather you just respond to my post as a whole, and not skip anything, which tends to happen when people break up my posts into smaller pieces.

Who wrote the OT

Moses, Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah, Malachi, among others...

All inspired by God.

and why is it in the Bible.

Because at the time of writing what is contained in the OT, it was scripture, being the inspired word of God.

If the OT is the Word of God, or is divinely inspired by God,

It's both.

then whomever wrote it must also be the Word.

Wrong.

Now if you claim that the spirit of Jesus was in or was manifest in Abraham, Moses, Noah, and others,

We don't.

I don't have a problem with that, because I see no difference between the Messengers of God who appear in the Bible. They are all the Word.

You should have a problem, because they are not.

I believe I've pointed this out before, but "Word" is a terrible translation of the word "LOGOS" in John 1:1, et al.

"LOGOS" means "logic" and "reason," It does not mean "word."

The Word is both in an absolute, uncreated, timeless state

There is no such thing as timelessness.

with God and to manifest and be revealed in the material realm the Word must manifest through a human form.

Why? Why not come as a wolf, or an eagle? or any other creature?

In any case, what you said is meaningless nonsense.

God is the Necessary Being, because without Him, nothing would exist.
God is Uncaused Cause, because He is before all things.
God exists IN TIME, because "outside of time" is irrational, and God is rational.
God had no physical form, until God the Son came as a man, and now shall always be both God and Man. However, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit still do not have a physical form.

So the Word is in an absolute state with God, beyond time, form or state and in a relative state, in a time-bound conditional human form.

Meaningless nonsense. Supra.

Some Christians believe that this happened only once in human history,

Christ came as a man ONCE and died ONCE for all.

but how then can they explain a Bible that covers

Because the author was written by about 40 different authors over the course of 1600 years or so, inspired by God.

at least 6000 years of Revelation.

Where did you come up with that number?

Creation occurred around 7000 years ago, the flood around 5300 years ago, Moses wrote his portion of the bible around 3500 years ago, David was Crowned king around 1000 BC, Jesus was born around 4 BC, and was crucified, buried, and rose again on the third day around 29 AD, and around 30 AD, Paul was chosen as God's Apostle to the Gentiles.

That means there was only around 1600 or so years of divine revelation from God, not 6000 years.

And what of the Christ figure who will return.

Yeah, that's Jesus Christ.

What about Him?

To the best of my ability I have pondered this and it seems perfectly reasonable that the Word is both absolute with God and relative with the various Messengers who all seem to be the Word.

It's not reasonable, because it's wrong.

As I mentioned, if the claim is that Jesus in other forms manifests from age to age to renew the Word,

That's not the claim though.

then I think that also makes sense,

It doesn't make sense.

but that does not make Jesus God.

Other evidence shows that Jesus is God.

I respect your beliefs

My beliefs have nothing to do with it.

Forum rules state "No intentional blasphemy." You violated that rule, and thus, you were punished for it.

and I love God and Jesus,

Not the God of the Bible.
Not the Jesus of the Bible.

but it is my sacred obligation to know my own truths.

Your obligation is to find out what IS true.

Truth isn't relative. What you might think is true may not be true at all.

That's why God said there must be two or three witnesses to establish a matter, because one witness isn't enough.

In my search I may have differing views to established beliefs, but that does not for one second suggest that I in any way have anything less than the deepest love and respect for the exalted station of Christ and the eternal Glory of God.

There's your problem. You're more focused on the "exalted station of Christ" and "the eternal Glory of God," rather than "Jesus Christ" and "God."

You cannot have the "deepest love and respect" for Jesus Christ and God if you don't know who He is.

By coming to an understanding that Jesus is not literally God,

By doing so, it makes you wrong, because Jesus IS literally God.

yet represents God in the flesh

Jesus IS God in the flesh, LITERALLY.

and the authority of God

Jesus HAS the authority of God because HE IS GOD. There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved, and Jesus said, for His 12 disciples to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

ONE NAME, three Persons.

I am not reducing God to a human form, a material state which can not be compared in any way to the glorious state of eternal God.

Paul claims that Jesus emptied Himself and became a man.
John tells us the LOGOS tabernacled among us, putting on a tent of flesh.

You claim He wasn't God.

I'm going to stick with Paul and John on this.

I can not accept that the Creator of the universe can be subjected to the transience of physical reality to be soiled and murdered by creatures of its own Creation.

Just because you can't accept something doesn't mean it didn't happen. You're committing what is called an "appeal to incredulity" fallacy.

Jesus, the Creator, loved His creation, mankind, so much that He was willing to give His life for him, to redeem mankind and to provide a way for him to live forever with Him.

Greater love has no man than this than to lay down his life for his friend!

Jesus, who is God, DEMONSTRATED His love for us, that while we were yet sinners, He died for us!

And you can't accept that, for whatever reason.

That puts you at enmity with God.

God could not be contained even by an entire universe.

Surpa, re: Christ emptying Himself.

I feel blasphemy is more about intent and I in no way set out to demean the station of the Christ.

Then You need to stop claiming that people other than Christ are "the Word of God." Because it IS blasphemy.

Christ is more than a mere human, but less than God.

False.

Jesus is both GOD and MAN.

The following Scriptures are but a few that has led me to my present understanding.

None of the verses show that Jesus isn't God.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

Which shows that Jesus is not the Father, but not that He isn't God.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

Which shows that Jesus, the Son of God, submits His will to the Father's. But it doesn't show that Jesus isn't God.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

Yes, the Father gives life to the Son. This belief is known as "Aseity." It doesn't show that Jesus isn't God.

In fact, it shows that He IS God, for apart from Christ, nothing would exist!

John 1 specifically states:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-5&version=NKJV

And Jesus explicitly says:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. - John 14:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John14:6&version=NKJV


4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

This shows that Jesus is not selfish, but that He honors His Father, the perfect Father/Son relationship. It doesn't show that He isn't God.

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

He is expressing His obedience to His Father, and also His UNITY with the Father. It does not say that Jesus isn't God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

No, He doesn't.

Notice that He didn't deny being good.

Or do you claim that Jesus was not good?

If so, then why should we trust Him at all?

If He WAS good, then He is God.

In other words, He was asking the man who came to Him if he recognized that Jesus was God, and thus called Him good.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

Wrong, and it's because you equivocate.

It makes a strong distinction between Jesus and the Father. Notice how it says "Father"? That's intentional.

YES, the Father is greater than the Son, because the Father has authority OVER the Son. That doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

Why would He?

His Father was in Heaven, Jesus was on Earth.

It doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

It just means that the Triune God can be in multiple places simultaneously... In other words, God is omnipresent, He can be wherever He wants to be at the same time.

Jesus, being God, having emptied Himself, restricted Himself to His physical body on Earth, so praying ("prayer" just means communication with God) with His Father localizes His prayer to being from Earth, while His Father is in Heaven.

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

Appeal to incredulity fallacy.

There is a perfectly valid explanation that doesn't require Jesus to not be God.

Jesus was separated from His Father, His God, because "He became sin for us," and so the Father had to turn away from Him, because He couldn't bear to look at Him (that's how disgusting sin is to God).

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

This isn't hard...

Jesus is speaking about Israel.

He's praying for those who believed His message. Try reading the whole context of what He's saying:

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” - John 17:20-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:20-26&version=NKJV

By the way, here Jesus also claims to have been present before the foundation of the world, in other words, before creation. He's literally claiming to be God.

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

This doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

It just means that Jesus will be, once again, over everything, over all creation, like He was before His incarnation, because He was, as the author of Hebrews writes, "made a little lower than the angels."

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

Not quite.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV

Jesus was the express image of God. As if God looked into a mirror, and the image reflected was Jesus.

The difference between your analogy, and where it breaks down, and Jesus is that Jesus was actually God, and thus was the perfect representative to represent God.

Jesus, God the Son, was chosen as the representative, to become the perfect mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus.

The problem you have with using this passage is that it says that Jesus is exactly the same as God, which makes Him God, and because God said that He will not share His glory with another, and that He alone is God.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted.

The problem is that this ignores the fact that there's two kinds of temptation being described here.

Jesus was tempted by Satan (externally), but remained untempted (internally).

Satan tempted Christ, saying to the very hungry Jesus who had been fasting for 40 days, to turn a rock into bread.

Jesus remained untempted by this, because His focus was on His Father.

In other words, you can tempt God, but God will not be tempted.

This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

Jesus didn't say "don't call Me good"

He asked a question, "why do you call me good?"

HUGE difference.

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

I don't know what translation you're using, but it's extremely confusing, and not at all accurate...

Here is a better translation:

So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”;who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. - Hebrews 5:5-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews5:5-11&version=NKJV

Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion, but it isn't what the passage says at all.

Verse 7 is referring to Christ in the garden of Gethsemane.
Verse 8 is referring to Christ going to the cross.
Verse 9 is referring to His completion of His course of suffering.

None of what is said implies that Jesus was unfaithful before, or disobedient before, or that he wasn't perfect before, but rather that He followed fully and obediently the course of suffering that the Father had planned, before the foundation of the world, for Him, as a runner that runs a race.

All the time. If I thought I was absolute right I would have no need to be communicating my thoughts.

I mean on this specific subject.

In other words: What happens if you're wrong about Jesus not being God? Have you thought about it? If so, what would it mean if you were wrong?

As I have mentioned, there are tens-of-thousands of different Christian churches, sects, divisions. Each one of these schisms has a conflicting interpretation regarding some aspect of Scripture.

There can be only one correct interpretation, which is why I asked the above question. If you're right, then great! You who hold the minority position will get into heaven, while millions upon millions of other believers will find out that what they believed was a lie.

But if you're wrong, what happens?

Then YOU will be the one to find out that the Person you believed in was not who you thought He was, and because of that, you will be sent to hell.

The Abomination of Desolation relates to an age when there is no safe or reliable place to turn to to understand ones place before God relating to the understanding of Scripture. That is what this means and it surely applies to this age.

The Abomination of Desolation has nothing to do with this current age. It has to do with the Time of Jacob's Trouble, AKA The Great Tribulation, which has not yet happened.

I think it worth some effort to explore the truth rather than accept what has gone before.

As RD asked you, what if the Truth has already come, and you missed Him?
 

EliG

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Jesus is definitely NOT God. God is One single being who is Supreme, the Most High, the Majesty of the Universe. Only One can be in that position and He is not Jesus, cause he said so in John 14:28.

If you think on the word "God" as a nature, an essence, a sustance, or whatever, even as a last name or a family name, a race, a corporation, or whatever, then you are not thinking right. In the Bible God is called "the God of gods" (Deut. 10:17), and certainly not of false gods. Since Jesus has a God (1 Cor. 15:24,25,27), he is not the God of gods ... though he could be a god in form, or because he is a very powerful spirit now, BUT not equal or higher than the God of gods, his own God.

In Rev. 3:12 Jesus, already in heaven, tells John that in heavens no one worships himself in the heavenly temple, but other God, his God. You can find the same in Rev. 5:9,10, where heavenly beings are paying homage to Jesus because he bought humans for their God ... not for being their God. And in John 20:17 Jesus already resurrected sent this message to his BROTHERS: "I am ascending toward my God and your God".

No dramma, please. Sometimes truth hurts. Be strong and accept it.
 
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