Jesus is God !

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Greetings blueboy,

I appreciate your positive contribution and agree with much of what you have stated. Nevertheless I consider that the following teaches that the One God, God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception / birth process by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, while Mary was his mother.
Do you believe all of the following about Christ?

" Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. "

That's all pretty well substantiated by the Bible.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Greetings Idolater,

No. What you have quoted is part of the Nicene Creed. Also I do not accept the earlier part of the Nicene Creed.

Kind regards
Trevor
What do you mean, "No?" You literally mentioned things that are in the excerpt I quoted. Which parts don't you believe, because the parts which you do believe are already public here, in my quote of you (you can only edit your own posts, not my quote). Which part or parts of it don't you believe?

And I mean what I quoted Trevor, not the rest of the source which I excerpted. I already know you don't believe the rest of it, I'm only asking about the part which I quoted.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Idolater,
Which part or parts of it don't you believe?
"Through him all things were made.": Ambiguous. Is this speaking about the Edenic Creation or the New Creation? If Edenic Creation, then in a sense I believe that all things were created with Jesus in mind Psalm 8.
"he came down from heaven": I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus. He did not exist before his conception / birth.
"by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man": As above. Incarnate? "Became" is ambiguous, as he was born a human.

I agree with the rest of the statement, except I would add to the following "is seated at the right hand of the Father", that Jesus "is seated at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne" Psalm 110:1, Revelation 3:21-22.

That should be sufficient for starters.
Kind regards
Trevor
 

beloved57

Well-known member
trevor

I understand that this teaches that Jesus is the root of what David will be in his resurrection. Jesus is the source of life for all the faithful.

Thats ony part accurate, but He was the root of David before that, He was the source of David, Davids Creator Col 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

He was and is Davids God/Lord Ps 110:1

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.



I understand that Jesus is David's Lord because Jesus is the Son of God. God the Father was the father of Jesus and thus he had a higher status and birth than David, who called Jesus his Lord in Psalm 110:1. He is Lord of all of the faithful also.

The Point Jesus was making is that He was David's God. And the Lord of All is God, not a second class lesser god. Only God is Lord of all, which applies to Jesus Christ. Peter emphasized that in his preaching the Gospel to the gentiles Acts 10:36

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And as the Son of God. Jesus was declaring His equality with God, thats why jews charged Him with Blasphemy, because He being only a man to them, calleth Himself the Son of God, making Himself equal with God, which would be blasphemy if it had not been true. Jn 15:18

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phil 2:6

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The same greek word is used in Jn 5:18 for equal as in Phil 2:6
isos:

  1. equal, in quantity or quality
to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belong to God,

So if one agrees that Jesus is the Son of God, then unwittingly they are affirming His being equal with God in Quality. They share the same Divine Essence in the Godhead..




And God dont play when it comes to being His equal Isa 40:25

To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isa 46:5

To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
 

blueboy

Member
You say this unironically about a Man Who raised the dead numerous times. And then raised up from the dead Himself. And that all history records that His Church always right from the get-go always believed He is God. This is indisputable. You think both things are possible that He can apparently at will raise the dead, and that He established an institution which wrongly thought He was God become flesh? You think both things are true?

You do not understand grammar.

In raising the dead, Jesus bought those who were spiritually dead back to spiritual life. That's why He said let the dead bury the dead. Those who were suffering spiritual sickness, leprosy of the spirit, He cleansed. And even if He had literally raised the dead, would this not be via the power of the Holy Spirit and not because God entered His own Creation. Surely nobody could possibly believe that the Creator could be reduced to the degradation of human only to be destroyed by His own Creation?

As for Jesus rising from death, it is far more likely that after three days of fear, grief and sadness the Disciples gathered themselves up and began to teach as they were taught by Jesus. As the reality of Jesus was His Teachings, this is no less than the reality of Jesus rising from death after three days.

There are between 30 thousand and 70 thousand Christian sects, churches and religious groups. Each has their own take, so Christianity is the least homogenous religion on earth.

As for grammar, my understanding is not too bad. Perhaps you meant something else to do with the essential meaning of various Scriptures?
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again beloved57,
He was and is Davids God/Lord Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 110:1 teaches that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, not that he is God. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father speaks to Jesus, David's and our Lord.
The Point Jesus was making is that He was David's God. And the Lord of All is God, not a second class lesser god. Only God is Lord of all, which applies to Jesus Christ.
Jesus addresses God his Father as Lord of heaven and earth, and this is based on Psalm 8, the New Creation Psalm:
Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Psalm 8:1–3 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
I prefer the concept that unlike Adam, Jesus did not as a human grasp at equality with God. I have not directly answered all that you have stated.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

beloved57

Well-known member
blueboy
This is not saying Jesus is literally God, because this would be nonsensical. Jesus made no claim that He was God.
Wrong on both accounts. And Jesus made no claim He wasnt God as well !
 

Right Divider

Body part
Much of the same. Jesus is the Son of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and this excludes the concept that he is God.
Nope... no matter how many time you repeat your vain philosophy, it does not become true.
Good logic, or rather strange logic, as Jesus as the Son of Man is a descendant of the man Adam Psalm 8:4-6, Psalm 80:17.
Jesus, as a MAN, is a descendant of Adam. As God, Jesus is God.

John 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The WORD that was GOD was made flesh. So simple that even a child can understand it.
 

blueboy

Member
Greetings blueboy,

I appreciate your positive contribution and agree with much of what you have stated. Nevertheless I consider that the following teaches that the One God, God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception / birth process by means of the power of the Holy Spirit, while Mary was his mother.
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


Kind regards
Trevor
Okay, clearly the spirit of Jesus was the source of the spiritual power He exercised in establishing the largest religious body on earth. This spirit was both Created and enlivened by the Holy Spirit as it served the Will of God. He represented God before humans and did so via the light and radiance of His spirit as it served the Will of God.

Mary may or may not have conceived without physical intervention. As the physical body of Christ was no different than any other body, what made Him a Manifestation of God was the power of His spirit which was that of a Messiah and far greater than any human spirit.
 

blueboy

Member
blueboy

Wrong on both accounts. And Jesus made no claim He wasnt God as well !
I guess it comes down to just how much people think they can demote God. How much He can be reduced to human form.

I imagine the function of every atom depends on the continued presence of God. That a universe would not exist for a moment without the external force of God being active in every moment.

Others can have God turned into a man who had to perform the bodily functions of a man and then suffer and be killed, not to mention being born and breast fed. Little baby God. Such a strange god.

On the one hand He is the All-knowing, the King of kings, the Uncreated, the Creator, next minute He is a baby being born. I wonder when God took His first step and said His first word, that would have been so cute.

Religion does not have to be void of reason and logic forever, does it?
 

Right Divider

Body part
@TrevorL @blueboy
You call Jesus a liar.

Acts 2:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

John 2:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (2:20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (2:21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus said that HE would raise HIMSELF and it ALSO says that GOD raised Him.

In other words, Jesus is God.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
I guess it comes down to just how much people think they can demote God. How much He can be reduced to human form.
It does not "demote God" that He chose to be "made flesh" (God 1:14).
I imagine the function of every atom depends on the continued presence of God. That a universe would not exist for a moment without the external force of God being active in every moment.
That has nothing to do with God being made flesh per John.
Others can have God turned into a man who had to perform the bodily functions of a man and then suffer and be killed, not to mention being born and breast fed. Little baby God.
God was not "turned into a man". That is a straw-man argument and means nothing.
Such a strange god.
Fallacious appeal to the stone.
On the one hand He is the All-knowing, the King of kings, the Uncreated, the Creator, next minute He is a baby being born. I wonder when God took His first step and said His first word, that would have been so cute.
Blaspheming God will get you nowhere.
Religion does not have to be void of reason and logic forever, does it?
There is nothing unreasonable or illogical about our position. Yours simply denies scripture (i.e., God's Word).
 

Right Divider

Body part
This is the true God, and eternal life, is stating that the reality of God, His truth and eternal life are accessed by the perfect mirror, Jesus, who reflects all the qualities of God. Who in this age was the only mediator between humans and God.
The reason that Jesus can be this mediator is because He is both man and God.
This is not saying Jesus is literally God, because this would be nonsensical.
Again with your fallacious arguments.
Jesus made no claim that He was God.
Indeed He did. You just choose to ignore Him.
That God the prefect Creator should enter the relative imperfection of physical reality is a strange imagining of God.
Fallacious arguments are your favorite pastime.
Jesus was a path to the truth of God, to the true God, and to eternal life.
John 14:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Notice that Jesus says that HE is the way, the truth and the life.
He was not God Himself.
Wrong.
Otherwise we have to imagine a God that needs to eat, defecate, becomes soiled and is eventually murdered by His own Created creatures.
Just like the Bible says. Why do you disagree with God's Word?
I imagine that people don't know any better because suggesting Jesus is literally God, if thought through properly would have to be blasphemy against the perfect, eternal nature of God, who is transcendent, not subject to humans.
Your imagination is flawed as is your theory.
Son of God denotes the closeness of the relationship, the obedience a son has to the father, the son promoting the Will of the father and not his own, etc, it does not mean literal Sonship.
A son has the same nature as His father.
 

blueboy

Member
The reason that Jesus can be this mediator is because He is both man and God.

Again with your fallacious arguments.

Indeed He did. You just choose to ignore Him.

Fallacious arguments are your favorite pastime.

John 14:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Notice that Jesus says that HE is the way, the truth and the life.

Wrong.

Just like the Bible says. Why do you disagree with God's Word?

Your imagination is flawed as is your theory.

A son has the same nature as His father.
Why do you disagree with God's Word?

I only disagree with your word because I very much doubt that you are God.

Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, and this is absolutely true, because Jesus is the intermediary between God and man. It's not a declaration that Jesus is God. It's a declaration that there is no way to God but through Jesus because He has been appointed as the gatekeeper to God. The interpreter of God's Word.

How can you imagine that the Creator of the universe, all life and every vibrating atom came down into its own Creation and wandered about as a human? Jesus represents the authority of God without being literally God. Jesus is as close to God as any human will ever approach. God could not be contained within a human body, or inside its own Creation.

Forget about ripping into me, try and think this through. Jesus being literally God is no less than blasphemy. To suggest God could be in any way human like is degrading God and a gross misunderstanding of Scripture.

I think you need deal with your own flawed imagination before you worry about mine.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
In raising the dead, Jesus bought those who were spiritually dead back to spiritual life. That's why He said let the dead bury the dead. Those who were suffering spiritual sickness, leprosy of the spirit, He cleansed. And even if He had literally raised the dead, would this not be via the power of the Holy Spirit and not because God entered His own Creation. Surely nobody could possibly believe that the Creator could be reduced to the degradation of human only to be destroyed by His own Creation?

As for Jesus rising from death, it is far more likely that after three days of fear, grief and sadness the Disciples gathered themselves up and began to teach as they were taught by Jesus. As the reality of Jesus was His Teachings, this is no less than the reality of Jesus rising from death after three days.

There are between 30 thousand and 70 thousand Christian sects, churches and religious groups. Each has their own take, so Christianity is the least homogenous religion on earth.

As for grammar, my understanding is not too bad. Perhaps you meant something else to do with the essential meaning of various Scriptures?
He also walked on water and commanded storms to stop and they obeyed Him.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Why do you disagree with God's Word?

I only disagree with your word because I very much doubt that you are God.
What a lovely red herring and a non-sequiter!

I'm absolutely sure that you are not God.
Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, and this is absolutely true, because Jesus is the intermediary between God and man.
As the God/man indeed He is.
It's not a declaration that Jesus is God.
One of many. Jesus consistently equates Himself with God. You are just blind because of your false doctrine.
It's a declaration that there is no way to God but through Jesus because He has been appointed as the gatekeeper to God. The interpreter of God's Word.
Jesus frequently interprets God's Word and says "BUT I SAY". If He is not God, that is an arrogant man, which He is not.
How can you imagine that the Creator of the universe, all life and every vibrating atom came down into its own Creation and wandered about as a human?
I only "imagine" it because that is precisely what the Bible says.
Jesus represents the authority of God without being literally God.
False claims and without support.
Jesus is as close to God as any human will ever approach.
Indeed, that is because He is God.
God could not be contained within a human body, or inside its own Creation.
Fallacious claim once again. Making unsupported claims is kid stuff.
Forget about ripping into me, try and think this through.
Look in a mirror.
Jesus being literally God is no less than blasphemy.
That is a lie. Saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God is blasphemy.
To suggest God could be in any way human like is degrading God and a gross misunderstanding of Scripture.
That is false. It is YOU that has a gross misunderstanding of scripture. Which I have already demonstrated above. Was Jesus a liar when He says that HE would RAISE Himself? You say yes to that question. Therefore, you degrade and demean God.
I think you need deal with your own flawed imagination before you worry about mine.
I don't have a flawed imagination, so I'll continue to point our this falsehood of yours.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Why do you disagree with God's Word?

Says the one who hasn't quoted a single Bible verse so far... at least not on the last two pages...

Didn't you reject the idea that the Bible was God's word anyways?

I only disagree with your word because I very much doubt that you are God.

You disagree, but your disagreement isn't backed up by scripture.

Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life, and this is absolutely true, because Jesus is the intermediary between God and man.

Not only that, but in order to be the PERFECT intermediator, He must have something in common with BOTH parties, to avoid bias towards one side or the other.

It's not a declaration that Jesus is God.

Yes, it is, by the very definition of justice.

It's a declaration that there is no way to God but through Jesus because He has been appointed as the gatekeeper to God.

Which is not exclusionary to Jesus being God.

The interpreter of God's Word.

Anyone can interpret God's word.

But who better to interpret God's word than God Himself?

How can you imagine that the Creator of the universe, all life and every vibrating atom came down into its own Creation and wandered about as a human?

Because the Bible says He did. Isn't it amazing?! That He would condescend to us, so that He may truly know us, and we Him!

One of God's Biblical attributes is that He is RELATIONAL. He wants a relationship with His creation! Unlike other depictions of gods who are not relational, but aloof, the God of the Bible is real, and He wants a relationship with you!

Jesus represents the authority of God without being literally God.

False.

Jesus is as close to God as any human will ever approach.

Jesus was God before He became a man.

God could not be contained within a human body, or inside its own Creation.

Philippians 2:7 says He emptied Himself when He became human.

So what's your point? No one here says that the entirety of God could fit within a human body.

Forget about ripping into me, try and think this through.

We have. You clearly have not.

Jesus being literally God is no less than blasphemy.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

To suggest God could be in any way human like is degrading God and a gross misunderstanding of Scripture.

The Bible says otherwise.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. - John 1:1-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-18&version=NKJV

I think you need deal with your own flawed imagination before you worry about mine.

Tu quoque Fallacy.
 
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