Its safer to own a gun?

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CabinetMaker

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CM thinks that you should just talk it out with the criminals.
So do many Police departments.

What many people fail to understand is that using a gun, even if justified, has consequences. Even if you don't face criminal charges, you can face civil charges. Even if you win the wrongful death suit, you still have to defend yourself in court. And you may face criminal charges as well. Again, you may win, but you must pay to defend yourself.
 

Right Divider

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So do many Police departments.

What many people fail to understand is that using a gun, even if justified, has consequences. Even if you don't face criminal charges, you can face civil charges. Even if you win the wrongful death suit, you still have to defend yourself in court. And you may face criminal charges as well. Again, you may win, but you must pay to defend yourself.
Well that all depends on the circumstances, doesn't it.

I wasn't suggesting that you "open fire" when you feel the slightest bit threatened.

The fact that people have to defend themselves in court even for obviously legitimate cases of self-defense shows just how screwed up the law and the courts are today.
 

CabinetMaker

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Well that all depends on the circumstances, doesn't it.
Yes. And those circumstances are frequnetly determined in court. Have you checked attorney fees lately? In other words are you aware of ALL of the ramifications of carrying a gun?

I wasn't suggesting that you "open fire" when you feel the slightest bit threatened.
Simply showing your gun is menacing. Pulling your gun, even if you don't point it at them, is felony menacing.

The fact that people have to defend themselves in court even for obviously legitimate cases of self-defense shows just how screwed up the law and the courts are today.
But who was defending themselves from who? Were you defending yourself from them or were they defending themselves from you? Depends on the circumstances I suppose.
 

JudgeRightly

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It depends on where you live here.
But for the most part- no- you aren't safer with a gun. At least not in the general, day to day sense.

The freedom to bear arms by the American Constitution is for the purpose of defying tyranny.

Tyranny? You mean the government? And how is a group of local militia going to defend themselves against the military of a government, hmm? No, that's what I originally thought, but after actually thinking about it, and hearing reasoning against that idea, I've changed my stance. It may have been true back when America wasn't as powerful of a nation. But now it's more for the protection of the citizens against criminals.

Except for Philando, who did nothing wrong and was practically murdered in front of his family.

He didn't tell the officer where the gun was, and was reaching for something in his pocket. There was marijuana found in the car.

Now, I've never been trained to be a police officer, nor have I been one, and I'm pretty sure you haven't either. But I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the officer, even if there was something better he could have done.

The first mistake Castile made was that he did not, when the officers walked up to his vehicle, tell the officers that he had a gun, tell them exactly where it was located, and then did not ask them if he could pull it out slowly so that it could be in their sight at all times. That one decision probably would have saved his life. But from what I'm reading online is that he waited until 40 seconds after the officers walked up to his car to tell them he had a gun on him. (That could be from a number of reasons, most significant of which is the pot.)

His second (and ultimately fatal) mistake was that he reached into his pocket after telling the officer he had a gun, after not telling the officer where said gun is.

It's a tragedy, of course, that he died, but the officer is trained to react if the person he is talking to is potentially pulling out a gun, and hasn't announced his intentions.

That event alone made me reevaluate conservatives in this country- the fact that those very same people found no fault in the officer in court really crushed my soul, I couldn't believe it.

You all affirmed your prejudice on that one, and that is why I laugh at this godforsaken site trying to brand me as a 'racist' :rolleyes:

Well, he did nothing right either

Next time, maybe he shoulda said "I have a gun" with his hands flat on the dash and wait for the officer's response

^^^

Not false. You're small handful of examples don't hold any weight against the other 99% of society.In fact, it's plain science- people who need a gun the most are people who live in a rural area about an hour drive from any city. Those are hot spots for home invasions and a potentially 30 minute wait on police arriving.

So you're just going to ignore those who don't need a gun "the most"?

The police are the first wave of any tyrannical force.

They're also the second layer of defence against crime in a community. The first is (and should be) the individuals in that community.

Would you rather there be NO police?

The Founding Fathers were no fools, they were very realistic in how tyranny works, having made an entire country resisting it :)

Romans 8:31 TOL
What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If a gun is for us, who can be against us?

See what happens when you take passages out of context?

Paul isn't talking about battles or wars, or life on earth. He's talking about our eternal salvation. If God is for us, who can be against us? No one can bring any charge against us, because God Himself has justified us.

It explains a line of reasoning with Jesus, let's look at it objectively:

Jesus told Peter to arm himself in the first place. This is because, in his human condition, Jesus did not want persecution- his prayer in the garden makes it obvious. And that is, by all reason, why he commanded Peter to carry a sword.

But then he tells him to drop the sword.

He tells Peter to put the sword back in it's sheath, not drop it on the ground. He was teaching his disciples that there is a time and a place for violence, and that that wasn't it.

There's really nothing in the New Testament that defends the idea of Christians openly brandishing weapons, let alone venerating them.

There is. You just aren't looking very hard.
 

Right Divider

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Yes. And those circumstances are frequnetly determined in court.
I was talking about the circumstances in which someone NEEDS to protect themselves by using a gun.

Your fantasy world not withstanding.

Have you checked attorney fees lately? In other words are you aware of ALL of the ramifications of carrying a gun?

Simply showing your gun is menacing.
Pulling your gun can often END the treat right there.

Pulling your gun, even if you don't point it at them, is felony menacing.
Protecting yourself is not "felony menacing" (whatever that means, people often make up silly terms to support their wrongness).

But who was defending themselves from who? Were you defending yourself from them or were they defending themselves from you? Depends on the circumstances I suppose.
Exactly! When a gun wielding perp enters a business establishment, Guess what that situation is.

In a great many cases, the situation is not nearly so hard to determine as you make out.
 

CabinetMaker

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I was talking about the circumstances in which someone NEEDS to protect themselves by using a gun.

Your fantasy world not withstanding.
Sadly, its no fantasy. It comes from researching Colorado gun laws. What you can and can't do.


Pulling your gun can often END the treat right there.
It can. But, if you do not call the police and report it and the person you pulled the gun on does, guess what. You may be arrested for felony menacing.


Protecting yourself is not "felony menacing" (whatever that means, people often make up silly terms to support their wrongness).
Menacing can be charged as a Class Three Misdemeanor (M3), or as a Class Five Felony (F5) in Colorado. It becomes a felony when it involves the use of a Deadly Weapon. [Source] As you can see, Colorado clearly has a statute that elevates menacing to a felony when a gun is involved.


Exactly! When a gun wielding perp enters a business establishment, Guess what that situation is.
Well, given that Colorado is an open carry state unless posted other wise, a person walking into an establishment with a gun may just be a law abiding citizen going to get some munchies. And then he sees you pull your gun. Care to guess what that situation is?

In a great many cases, the situation is not nearly so hard to determine as you make out.
Travon Martin might not agree with you. Were he alive to state his case. IN any case, simply having a gun does not always make you safer. It absolutely opens you up to much more criminal and civil liability.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sadly, its no fantasy. It comes from researching Colorado gun laws. What you can and can't do.


It can. But, if you do not call the police and report it and the person you pulled the gun on does, guess what. You may be arrested for felony menacing.



Menacing can be charged as a Class Three Misdemeanor (M3), or as a Class Five Felony (F5) in Colorado. It becomes a felony when it involves the use of a Deadly Weapon. [Source] As you can see, Colorado clearly has a statute that elevates menacing to a felony when a gun is involved.


Well, given that Colorado is an open carry state unless posted other wise, a person walking into an establishment with a gun may just be a law abiding citizen going to get some munchies. And then he sees you pull your gun. Care to guess what that situation is?

Travon Martin might not agree with you. Were he alive to state his case. IN any case, simply having a gun does not always make you safer. It absolutely opens you up to much more criminal and civil liability.

Trayvon Martin was a pothead who had been acting up (for lack of a better word) for days, weeks, months, and even years before he was killed in self-defence.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1951821.html
 

CabinetMaker

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No, he deserved to die because he was assaulting george zimmerman

So George said. But George had a gun and Trayon didn't. Maybe Trayvon was defending himself from George? It can be very hard to determine ALL the facts of a case when only half of those involved are around to say what happened.
 

ok doser

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So George said. But George had a gun and Trayon didn't. Maybe Trayvon was defending himself from George? It can be very hard to determine ALL the facts of a case when only half of those involved are around to say what happened.


Believe what you want

The fact of the matter is, the guy with the gun's still alive
 

CabinetMaker

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Believe what you want

The fact of the matter is, the guy with the gun's still alive
That is a fact. Whether or not he was the aggressor or simply defending himself is open to some debate. Not by a jury, they already decided. But to others, the case is a very interesting topic for discussion.
 

CabinetMaker

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Words of wisdom:

“Do not hurt where holding is enough; do not wound where hurting is enough; do not maim where wounding is enough; and kill not where maiming is enough; the greatest warrior is he who does not need to kill.”
Stephen R. Donaldson, The Illearth War
 

exminister

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I know they brought two swords when going to pray in the Garden :noway: I know the Lord Jesus Christ said "It is enough." :jawdrop:

:think:

Luke 22:35-38 Luke22:35 [Jesus] asked them, "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

Is it possible since the swords were bought before Gethsame it was intended as a lesson? Peter drew his sword and cut off the man's ear. Did Jesus use this incident to tell his followers to follow Him they would put their sword away. Man's ways are not His ways. For those who live by the sword die by the sword. Why are there no incidents in Acts or the Epistles of believers using weapons to defend themselves? Why did God allow His followers to become martyrs? Was there a higher calling?

John18 said:
10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”
 

CabinetMaker

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I already provided the scenario. I quoted the Bible on crime and punishment. Now give your answer.
My answer is not changed: it depends on what was in your heart when you used the gun. Were you honestly protecting your family or were enjoying the chance to actually use your gun on another human. Hod does not judge us under the law but by what is in our hearts. If it was in your heart to use your gun because you wanted to shoot another person, that is murder regardless of what the law says.
 
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