ECT It makes sense to observe God's Law

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
In the law "we" know holiness...... and that is good.
We are not made holy by the law, but it is good if we observe the law. What do you mean by holiness? Holiness is something to be desired, but then it is know that holiness is not about achieving some kind of standard to be right with God. Does holiness only make sense as something to be desired by those who have been saved in Christ? For holiness without faith may mean and attempt at righteousness apart from Jesus Christ.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean it is something we can do?

It's simple. I asked you if by the term "law" you were referring to the Torah. We know the Torah is not applicable to the church because the Torah does not allow for additions or deletions and yet we know the law was changed with regard to the priesthood. With the priesthood being changed there is a change of the law.

The law has not been destroyed, it still applies to Israel but the church is not the nation of ancient Israel.

The Torah was temporary.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
This came up before--


Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

According to these verses the problem was in the way men sought, not in the law itself.

The reading of the law means different things to different people.

I get a lot out of the reading of the law because it points to righteousness.

Whereas others think it is only for condemning.

why is that do we suppose?

LA
 

dreadknought

New member
After all, it comes from Him.

The Law is about love, and whatever your position on the old and new covenants we know Jesus taught about love from the Law, love of God and love of your neighbor.

The Law itself is about love. And this has become abundantly clear.

I think people focus on the Law as a negative, forgetting that it is good, because it condemns. Well, at least we know that when we compare ourselves against God's righteous law no one is perfect. That is why we need to obey God's commands in faith, because trying to achieve righteousness on our own by our own works does not work. We need the righteousness of Christ.

And He died that we would become the righteousness of God in Him.
What does your regenerate heart say?
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Rom 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.



We don't know that aspect of Christ today, according to His ministry in the flesh to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We never could (2 Cor 5:16). We know Him now, and are established ONLY by, the preaching of Him according to the revelation of the secret (Rom 16:25).

[Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Context, please. Paul was anticipating the inevitable objection of devout Jews who would be shocked to hear that the Law is now deactivated with the revelation of the secret and the new Gospel of the grace of God:

The believer of the Gospel of the Kingdom was not dead to the Law, for they kept it well into Acts (Acts 21:20). But the believer of Paul's Gospel IS dead to the Law in Christ, for he/she died with Him and law has no claim on those who are dead (Romans 7:1). :)

Are you dead to the law and alive to God in Christ, CS? We can't be both, it's one or the other. Which are you?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
It's simple. I asked you if by the term "law" you were referring to the Torah. We know the Torah is not applicable to the church because the Torah does not allow for additions or deletions and yet we know the law was changed with regard to the priesthood. With the priesthood being changed there is a change of the law.

The law has not been destroyed, it still applies to Israel but the church is not the nation of ancient Israel.

The Torah was temporary.
Does the Torah say it is eternal?

You are referring to a part of the book of Hebrews I believe.

The church is composed of both Jew and Gentile.

As for Law the word means instruction or it could refer to the Ten Commandments and even (to include) the rest of what was written called the Mosaic Law or the Law of Moses. But we also have the Torah referred to as the first five books of the Bible or more.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
This came up before--


Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

According to these verses the problem was in the way men sought, not in the law itself.

The reading of the law means different things to different people.

I get a lot out of the reading of the law because it points to righteousness.

Whereas others think it is only for condemning.

why is that do we suppose?

LA
Righteousness is to be desired.

So we know that how a person is righteous or becomes righteous is important as well.

If it is just a pursuit or apart from faith it is vain because it is not true righteousness.

But in some circles there is in addition to the discussion of practical righteousness, positional righteousness which we know only through the Savior who died for us.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Rom 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The problem is not with the law. The problem is with the person who breaks the law, or that which is accounted against a person is sin. The law cannot be counted against a person in this respect because it is not what the person has done that is wrong.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
You don't understand Jesus' simple word because you don't follow contextually.
Read the whole post so you can understand what I just said that you responded to in context.

I have pointed out that heaven and earth have not passed away yet. Then the only logical question about if all has been accomplished, in light of the fact that we are not living in a new heaven and new earth right now, is if it has been.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Thank you for posting this keypurr.

What is the law that has been written upon the hearts and minds of believers today (I am thinking the new covenant came with Jesus Christ who died for us 2000 years ago), or do you believe this applies to us today?
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
After all, it comes from Him.

The Law is about love, and whatever your position on the old and new covenants we know Jesus taught about love from the Law, love of God and love of your neighbor.

The Law itself is about love. And this has become abundantly clear.

I think people focus on the Law as a negative, forgetting that it is good, because it condemns. Well, at least we know that when we compare ourselves against God's righteous law no one is perfect. That is why we need to obey God's commands in faith, because trying to achieve righteousness on our own by our own works does not work. We need the righteousness of Christ.

And He died that we would become the righteousness of God in Him.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light. (*2 Corinthians‬ *11‬:*13-14‬ ASV)
 

csuguy

Well-known member
We don't know that aspect of Christ today, according to His ministry in the flesh to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We never could (2 Cor 5:16). We know Him now, and are established ONLY by, the preaching of Him according to the revelation of the secret (Rom 16:25).

Rather, your MAD theology tells you to ignore Christ's words as inapplicable to you

Context, please. Paul was anticipating the inevitable objection of devout Jews who would be shocked to hear that the Law is now deactivated with the revelation of the secret and the new Gospel of the grace of God:

Whatever his motivation/reasoning - it doesn't change what he said. Nor is this the only place where Paul confirms God's Law in his own life and in the Christian's life. Example:

Acts 21:20-26 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.​

We see here Paul's endorsement for the Mosaic Covenants in the life of the Jew, even under the New Covenant. These are still very much applicable.

Gentiles are treated differently here - neither Paul nor Peter endorse the idea that gentiles are required to embrace the Old Covenant and be physically circumcised (their heart must be however). Instead they direct them to follow the Noahide Covenant. This is not, however, because there is a different Gospel - both are saved by Christ under the same New Covenant. Rather, the reason is because the New Covenant does not invalidate God's previous Covenants.

Of course, the New Covenant is really an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant. Hence Paul says -

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

So you see you are wrong to separate gentiles from Israel; the promises of the New Covenant, the promises of Christ's Gospel, are really the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. Israel is the natural recipient of these promises - while gentiles are as wild vines that have been grafted on and thereby become fellow heirs and partakers of God's promises.

Now, where does God's Law fit into the New Covenant you may ask? It is written on the believer's heart:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]” declares the Lord. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”


Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Cor 3:4-6 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

So we see here, the New Covenant was promised to Israel, and it was promised to them because of God's Covenant with Abraham. Israel is Abrahams natural descendent and natural heir to the promises of God. However, if you belong to Christ, you are also considered to be of Abraham's seed; we are grafted onto Israel, the natural heir. Furthermore, under the New Covenant, we are told that God's Law will be written on our hearts. Obviously, then, God's Law is still very much important the believer - whether gentile or jew.


Paul says something interesting in another place that may help shed some light on the seeming contradiction between the above and the fact that neither Peter or Paul endorsed the idea of the gentiles getting circumcised and embracing the Mosaic Covenant.

1 Cor 9:19-23 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.​

See here: he distinguishes between the Mosaic Law and God's Law/Christ's Law! This is an important, but often missed distinction. This is expounded on a bit in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:5-10 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a] 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

The Mosaic Law was good and taught right from wrong, but if you approached it purely as a list of do's and dont's - you missed the Spirit of the Law. That is to say - you lacked an understanding of God's will for us. He allowed for many things under the law that he didn't like - such as divorce and sacrifice. He also didn't force people to live as saints under the law. But for one who pursued the truth and God's will, they would discover the Spirit of the Law - those underlying principles and values that God cares about, that we as Christians should live by.

The believer of the Gospel of the Kingdom was not dead to the Law, for they kept it well into Acts (Acts 21:20). But the believer of Paul's Gospel IS dead to the Law in Christ, for he/she died with Him and law has no claim on those who are dead (Romans 7:1). :)

Mind the difference between the Law and God's Law in Romans 7. Note what he says at the end:

Romans 7:21-25 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.​

Are you dead to the law and alive to God in Christ, CS? We can't be both, it's one or the other. Which are you?

Do you have God's Law written on your heart?
 

musterion

Well-known member
I've posted your direct quotes from what Paul said and you've ignored them or are trying to neutralize them with other Scriptures, including his own. That's because first and foremost you're a leftist, and as a leftist you're happy with a postmodern Mexican Standoff with God's Word, as if it were merely a philosophy or history textbook over which people could argue varying interpretations and never be sure in the end which one is right. That is your element; it is not mine. The Bible is the Voice of God to man. We either believe that or we do not. I treat it as such. You do not. Our discussion ends here...but before you go off and say "See? Another MAD ends an argument because he won't address the Bible!" you are the one who seeks to reduce the Bible to a mere book with no absolute, knowable truths. Your post above proves it.
 
Top