Profitable to what end? Are you saying it is profitable to make sure we are saved? Why not just profitable to please our Lord? Maybe if we are faithful in these little things, like being holy like He is holy, then He will put us in charge of greater things.
You're going to have to tell me. I was interrogating you to clarify what would motivate you to cease from sin, because I don't get it. Under your view, as best I can tell, there IS no reason really, to cease from sin, so long as you have faith. But then, if you don't have faith, then the same question would remain, Why would you cease from sin, even if you do NOT have faith?
Again; because it's profitable? is that why?
The above was the context of the question. So I'm not asking it as if I would know what profitable means in terms of resisting sin and doing good. It's something I've heard a TOL user here say, I was wondering if that was your answer too.
I was suggesting possible answers to my question, because again I do not get it. I don't get why you should "play dead" (in the context of Colossians 3 or Romans 6) if you don't feel like it. If you don't feel like e.g. going to church on Sunday, or being faithful to your wife, for two examples, then why should you be faithful anyway? One answer for why you'd say Yes, might be, Because it's profitable. I was guessing. If the answer was right, then you'd tell me what it means, not the other way around. Apparently the answer is No, so we don't need to consider what it might mean to be moral and good because it's profitable. I didn't mean it to be a red herring, distraction, derailment.
Why just in a metaphorical sense? Paul talked of those who had already died for such things. And why not? If a Christian is a true believer, surely there are still some things that would cause him to die earlier than he might normally have died, right? But would that cancel out his salvation?
No but that's not what I'm talking about. Sure, if you commit adultery and your collaborator's husband finds you and kills you then it's not a metaphorical death. ofc that's just dead dead. I mean that the contrast between how a faithful good Christian lives his life, compared to one who has abandoned some grave elements of Christian life, to me, to us, is like losing somebody. I no longer know or identify with that man. They have changed so much that it's like they are dead to me now.
So I was saying that if Paul is being literal, that we are metaphysically dead in some way when we believe the Gospel, then that is a jarring and confusing contrast to what our friend looks like to us, who has "fallen off the wagon" of Christian living, and now lives like a pagan in some real sense. That seems like he's dead to us. So that puts death on both sides here, to me that's confusing. If you're a good Christian man, you avoid sin and do good, and that's what dead looks like, and if you're not living the whole Christian life then you also appear to be dead, because you're NOT avoiding sin.
It's just confusing. If one of the sides is metaphysical death (or to put it less gayly and less fakely for Vlad, 'literal' death), then the side where he's not avoiding sin looks more real. Like if he doesn't try, he's going to stay dead. It's a rut. There's no way out unless you literally, metaphysically, pick yourself up and get out of the grave.
Because death to me is not something you have to try at. There's no effort involved at all. And if there is effort, then sinning is the lesser of two efforts.
Do you mean the perfect Christian who never sins? Is that the man you once knew? Did Peter "fall off the wagon"?
Not 'never', but yeah, basically. The man I once knew didn't always commit adultery or break the Sixth Commandment in some other way, but now he does. The man I once knew attended church every Sunday and now he never goes. He doesn't fall off the wagon but get right back on again, he falls off, and he stays off, and shows no signs of wanting to get back on.
Peter:
$$ 2Pe 2:22
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again
That's what I mean.
If the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, then the gift must be overcoming the effects of sin, not just providing salvation to the already perfect. It's the sick that need a doctor, after all.
... I mean, yes, but I don't see how this is relevant.
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I was thinking of an extreme case when I first replied to Idolaters comment, of a priest who was assigned to nearby church when was in my late teens. Back then everyone loved the guy. Even people who weren't Catholics ,like myself, knew who he was and my friends and would I often visit him in his rectory. So I was pretty devastated when years later he was in the news about the following:
From AI: In November 2022, the Vatican's Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a final canonical judgment finding Seculoff guilty of the sexual abuse of minors and solicitation in the Sacrament of Confession.
But now that I think about it, how could I be sure he was ever a Christian in the first place? Could a real Christian even do something so horrible that it would be as if he were dead to me? I don't know...
Part of the blessing of having such old parishes (I'm from New England where the average age of Catholic parishioners is well into retirement) is the modeling that the oldsters are doing for the young, they're showing what the Mass obligation (you have a duty to attend Mass every Sunday and holiday) looks like, that it's a lifelong commitment; being a practicing Catholic is a lifelong commitment; like a marriage.
There's a sense in which you're right, you can't really know, until you see someone keep it up into old age. The oldsters who are going to Catholic Mass are going to die one day, and they're telling the rest of the parish, that the Sunday before they die, they'll be at Mass. We're doing it all the way to the end.
It's only after someone's Earthly life is over that we can begin to make a safe assessment. Who knows what the future brings otherwise? Free will.
